I challenge you...

ahill

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To convince me there are 5 anime/series better than DB.

You won't be able to do that. Maybe you can show a strong case for 2, but the difference is, I can show you why DB is better than most examples you bring up. There is nothing you can do to stop me from showing why DB is in the top 5 mangas of all time, using every nasty debating technique I know.
 

Sovran Nila

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To convince me there are 5 anime/series better than DB.

You won't be able to do that. Maybe you can show a strong case for 2, but the difference is, I can show you why DB is better than most examples you bring up. There is nothing you can do to stop me from showing why DB is in the top 5 mangas of all time, using every nasty debating technique I know.
Are we debating a subjective topic, or an objective one? What are the two shows that have a strong case, from your experience and perspective?

Upon removing the nostalgia goggles, the anime shows I've watched during the past two years have been astounding, and have reinvigorated the awe that DBZ once had.
 

Warmmedown

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Why "anime/series"? And not "anime". So manga and non-anime/manga too?

Dbz has no romance, the enemies mostly don't have human backstories, even the protags don't have strong back stories or full personalities like Yamcha is just scared of girls and a bandit but that's all we know. It lacks interesting dialogue about life. If you act like these guys IRL you life will suck because you'll go to prison eventually for poking someone in both eyes or kicking someone.
There's no reason given for Vegeta and Bulma becoming a couple.
Red ribbon army is just led by some donk called commander red who doesn't like being short.
 

ahill

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Are we debating a subjective topic, or an objective one? What are the two shows that have a strong case, from your experience and perspective?

Upon removing the nostalgia goggles, the anime shows I've watched during the past two years have been astounding, and have reinvigorated the awe that DBZ once had.
50/50 I'm objectivity and subjectivity
 

ahill

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Why "anime/series"? And not "anime". So manga and non-anime/manga too?

Dbz has no romance, the enemies mostly don't have human backstories, even the protags don't have strong back stories or full personalities like Yamcha is just scared of girls and a bandit but that's all we know. It lacks interesting dialogue about life. If you act like these guys IRL you life will suck because you'll go to prison eventually for poking someone in both eyes or kicking someone.
There's no reason given for Vegeta and Bulma becoming a couple.
Red ribbon army is just led by some donk called commander red who doesn't like being short.
Why'd romance be a parameter for being good? Are you a woman (joke)

Human backstories? Piccolo came from Namek and went through real loneliness for years waiting for a day that never came. He has experienced loneliness and despair, madness.

Vegeta was an ego self centered but he had some layer of sadness when learning the Saiyans were killed. He disguised it perfectly by saying wotu a stone face that he couldn't care less about them being killed rather being pissed he was used... But his face while digesting the story, those eyes of momentary pain and back to evil eyes showed a soul and a feeling for his face... Plus, the one who half humiliated him as a low class Saiyan was a strike to his ego that he couldn't get over, but seeing him rooting for Goku to beat Freeza showed he swallowed that huge blow due to a payback for the Saiyans.

We know pretty much nothing about Freeza but that huge question mark and his ungodly presence were still suffocating in his saga, showing he was scary as fuck even if we knew nothing of him.

Cell chased perfection as the utmost goal, but was broken once the programmed perception he believed to be perfection was surpassed... Showing perfection is an illusion and exists precisely because there is imperfection, making people chase for something that can't be acquired.

Boo had many facets, different forms while being the same Boo showing traces of his personality which serves as a parallel to lack of rationality evil —> rationality while fully evil —> evil but without full corruption —> blend of evil and innocence that is shaped by the environment ... A master class in psychology!

Well, you said Yamcha sucked so Bulma may have thought about marrying someone with a backstory

Yes and that short stuff is silly as it shatters expectations but is kinda funny considering general Black was annoyed to the point he killed commander red fo that lunacy.
 

Warmmedown

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We never saw anything about Piccolo being bothered by loneliness. We see barely any psychological insight into characters. Nobody will read DB and leave understanding the human condition much more than if they had just watched paint dry. Likewise, we don't learn anything about society or societal issues.

It's devoid of romance, so it's worse than many other manga in that regard. It's missing romance despite a big cast, because it mostly lacks exploration of human life beyond fighting.

It's an awful guide for how to live life. It's very detached from our world. The closest to our world is Gohan, but still he isn't a good guide for life because very little is shown of his city life, plus he relies on superpowers.
 

ahill

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We never saw anything about Piccolo being bothered by loneliness. We see barely any psychological insight into characters. Nobody will read DB and leave understanding the human condition much more than if they had just watched paint dry. Likewise, we don't learn anything about society or societal issues.

It's devoid of romance, so it's worse than many other manga in that regard. It's missing romance despite a big cast, because it mostly lacks exploration of human life beyond fighting.

It's an awful guide for how to live life. It's very detached from our world. The closest to our world is Gohan, but still he isn't a good guide for life because very little is shown of his city life, plus he relies on superpowers.
Well, you’re saying a manga needs to have an in-depth psychological exploration as a parameter for being high-level storytelling… which I don’t think is true. It depends on the series. What’s DB’s goal? It’s not to teach people how to live their lives (nor any manga imo) — it’s to be fun and exciting. If you take a Shuzo Oshimi mangas, like that one about the mother and the kid, they also have entertainment as a goal, I’d say (people don’t buy unless they feel entertained in some way), though they do so through reflection — through a psychological feel for the scenes. Different stories have different purposes.

Still, it’s not as bland as you imply. You can get a psychological reading on most characters from Dragon Ball, but they come through subtle moments. When Mr. Popo talks about Piccolo landing on Yunzabit with the spaceship and waiting for his parents for years, he says Piccolo must have felt really lonely. In fact, Piccolo cried when he was about to die, saying Gohan was the first person who spoke to him as if he weren’t a monster. That’s a subtle but effective way to show he felt a deep disconnection — loneliness — and that he embraced humanity’s evil nature as a way to validate the gap between himself and humans, filling that pain with a sense of superiority to explain why he was the outcast, by ruling over them.

When he offered Vegeta help after Cell’s defeat and Vegeta said, “Get lost, I don’t need your help, just go,” and Piccolo smirked and replied, “Ok, as you wish,” — Piccolo had seen that Vegeta had feelings, snapping when Cell killed Trunks, attacking SPC while losing his mind, and helping in the last moment with a blast that threw SPC off balance. He understood that Vegeta had a soul and a harsh upbringing, something Piccolo might have related, somewhat, to from before he joined the Z team fully. Piccolo also had an ego before — like his rivalry with Goku — until he let go of his desire to be the strongest. Once he saw Vegeta as someone who had a soul but was struggling, he likely understood Vegeta as someone going through the pain of accepting that he had lost his rival Goku, who died after surpassing him. Hence, his offer of help was almost rhetorical — more like saying, “I get how you feel.” In fact, when Piccolo left, Vegeta was furious that Goku had died, because he had lost the purpose that defined him. That was soul-crushing to him.

In the Boo arc, when Piccolo asks Vegeta, “Are you planning to die?” and Vegeta asks whether he’ll see Goku in the other world, Piccolo answers, “I’ll be blunt, but that’s impossible. You’ve killed too many innocents without compassion. Your body will be destroyed, your soul will be cleansed of all its memories, and used for another being.” Vegeta replies, “… Hehe, I see. That’s a shame. Well, that’s all. Take the boys and go, Piccolo.” Piccolo says, “Farewell…”

The faces they had — in their last meeting in the series — and the scene as a whole did a great job showing both characters’ psychology and the subtle respect, or understanding, they had for each other, even if there was barely any interaction.

For a series whose highlights revolve around power, about the mystery of dangerous villains, each character’s obsession with strength, and a timeline of events that feel both intriguing and fun like a deeply immersive game — to have these subtle details that reveal psychology and emotion in small but powerful ways, that’s a real plus, if you think about it.
 

ahill

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What are the two?
Idk, you haven't named any manga.

Manga/series = manga/anime ... Replace series for anime. But not those single stories like from Studio Ghibli's or the animated films *Akira*, that are more like animated movies/films. They don't count.
 
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Kyo

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I agree that stories don’t need any of those things to be good but i still don’t think dragon ball is the best.

you can make a case for the fight choreography. As shounen jump goes, it’s very very good.
 

Warmmedown

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Idk, you haven't named any manga.

Manga/series = manga/anime ... Replace series for anime. But not those single stories like from Studio Ghibli's or the animated films *Akira*, that are more like animated movies/films. They don't count.
Yeh but you implied you can think of two that someone could make a strong case for
I wanna know which they are. I wanted to use that to get a wedge in the door.
 

Warmmedown

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Well, you’re saying a manga needs to have an in-depth psychological exploration as a parameter for being high-level storytelling… which I don’t think is true. It depends on the series. What’s DB’s goal? It’s not to teach people how to live their lives (nor any manga imo) — it’s to be fun and exciting. If you take a Shuzo Oshimi mangas, like that one about the mother and the kid, they also have entertainment as a goal, I’d say (people don’t buy unless they feel entertained in some way), though they do so through reflection — through a psychological feel for the scenes. Different stories have different purposes.

Still, it’s not as bland as you imply. You can get a psychological reading on most characters from Dragon Ball, but they come through subtle moments. When Mr. Popo talks about Piccolo landing on Yunzabit with the spaceship and waiting for his parents for years, he says Piccolo must have felt really lonely. In fact, Piccolo cried when he was about to die, saying Gohan was the first person who spoke to him as if he weren’t a monster. That’s a subtle but effective way to show he felt a deep disconnection — loneliness — and that he embraced humanity’s evil nature as a way to validate the gap between himself and humans, filling that pain with a sense of superiority to explain why he was the outcast, by ruling over them.

When he offered Vegeta help after Cell’s defeat and Vegeta said, “Get lost, I don’t need your help, just go,” and Piccolo smirked and replied, “Ok, as you wish,” — Piccolo had seen that Vegeta had feelings, snapping when Cell killed Trunks, attacking SPC while losing his mind, and helping in the last moment with a blast that threw SPC off balance. He understood that Vegeta had a soul and a harsh upbringing, something Piccolo might have related, somewhat, to from before he joined the Z team fully. Piccolo also had an ego before — like his rivalry with Goku — until he let go of his desire to be the strongest. Once he saw Vegeta as someone who had a soul but was struggling, he likely understood Vegeta as someone going through the pain of accepting that he had lost his rival Goku, who died after surpassing him. Hence, his offer of help was almost rhetorical — more like saying, “I get how you feel.” In fact, when Piccolo left, Vegeta was furious that Goku had died, because he had lost the purpose that defined him. That was soul-crushing to him.

In the Boo arc, when Piccolo asks Vegeta, “Are you planning to die?” and Vegeta asks whether he’ll see Goku in the other world, Piccolo answers, “I’ll be blunt, but that’s impossible. You’ve killed too many innocents without compassion. Your body will be destroyed, your soul will be cleansed of all its memories, and used for another being.” Vegeta replies, “… Hehe, I see. That’s a shame. Well, that’s all. Take the boys and go, Piccolo.” Piccolo says, “Farewell…”

The faces they had — in their last meeting in the series — and the scene as a whole did a great job showing both characters’ psychology and the subtle respect, or understanding, they had for each other, even if there was barely any interaction.

For a series whose highlights revolve around power, about the mystery of dangerous villains, each character’s obsession with strength, and a timeline of events that feel both intriguing and fun like a deeply immersive game — to have these subtle details that reveal psychology and emotion in small but powerful ways, that’s a real plus, if you think about it.
Holy AI
Nah, jk.

I do think some manga try to teach people how to live to some degree. They try to influence morals and behaviour and in some cases even provide practical guidance. A manga like Night Patrol Teacher or Skip and Loafer are definitely trying to give practical life lessons, such as how to treat others or how to make the most of school. For sure teen girls read shoujo manga to get ideas of how to do relationships (same as watching reality TV or netflix shows). Some manga also don't teach how to live, but show a realistic depiction of life, almost like a documentary (I'd say some of Oshimi's work is like this, and the two aforementioned manga. Night Patrol is based on a teacher's real experiences). But intention is beside the point — (lol emdash. Never knew these long dashes existed until ChatGPT) the manga that set an example of how to live are valued for this, whether it was the author's intention or not. DBZ perhaps didn't aim to inspire people to train, but the impact it had on people's habits is a huge part of why it's valued as a series. DBZ has no little value showing how the world is or how to live your life better in a practical way. It's just inferior in this regard.

It's psychologically bland compared to many series. We're comparing to other series, not to a zero.

The human characters aren't shown with the emotional or psychological depth we know humans possess. They show almost no worries about life, finding meaning in life (including the fighters who are now on the wayside), half of them are basically hermits which is very unusual. 18 and Krillin are married, but what can you tell about their relationship? Nothing really. Do they go on trips, do they argue and if so what about, who handles different aspects of Marron's parenting, how do they spend their free time at home? Bulma and Briefs are engineer businesspeople, but we don't see them struggle with running a business or coming up with new ideas or juggling work-life balance. These guys part ways for years and then meet up again like "yo hey" - is this how real people interact?
You're reaching so hard on that first Piccolo and Vegeta dialogue. A lot of DBZ psychology is headcanon by fans who've been thinking about the series for ages. Whereas for other series a single read- or watch-through would present more psychological depth.


This is pretty much a major selling point of reading any story or watching any show for me. How it shows the human condition.

It's also unrealistic in how basically nobody dies. They all come back. So it misses that entire part of human life (not merely death, but later stages of grief and adjustment after death).

Another issue is in DB Goku beats every major villain, except for Cell. This was cool for the RRA because it was like wow he went and did it alone, which provided some shock value. But after that it gives nobody else a chance to shine.
 

Warmmedown

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The combat is flawed. Why do they all have different beams? They never explain how ki comes to create different coloured beams. They also never explain why they don't use certain attacks more, like kienzan. Whereas HunterxHunter will show why something has weaknesses, rather than characters randomly forgetting how powerful an attack is.
 

Warmmedown

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Back for more...I hate DBZ now!
They don't fight for compelling reasons either. It's just that some guy is strong and might destroy the Earth. With One Piece I can't wait to see some of them to get their butt kicked, because we actually see the harm they cause. DBZ is like a Tarantino movie...load of people die or suffer violence but there's not so much psychological weight to the violence (yeh I'm not a fan of Tarantino movies. Reservoir Dogs was quite good and Django Unchained was cool).


The conflict is all very straightforward. Oh I'm strong and hunky Cell, fight me. Oh I'm fit and toned Freeza, fight me. Oh I'm kinda skinny fat Buu, fight me. They all use pure strength to exact pain or injustice on others. There's no political plotting or manipulation (btw wow, took me half a minute to remember this word. That's bad). Nothing like Crocodile, Kuro and Arlong in One Piece. Or Orichamaru in Naruto. Gintama has arcs with cunning villains.
 

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To convince me there are 5 anime/series better than DB.

1. Astro Boy
2. Cyborg 009
3. Lupin the Third
4. Ashita no Joe
5. Space Battleship Yamato

All more influential than Dragon Ball famalam
 

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