I don't really get #16's speech to Gohan.

[GreatSaiyanman]

He tells him that fighting for good isn't a sin and to not hold back his anger, but Gohan already knows this and had already resolved that he wanted to beat Cell when the Cell Jrs. came into play. It didn't seem at all like Gohan was struggling with the morality of fighting or whatever, and he was actively trying to get angry enough to force out his power, so why does #16 tell him this and act like it's the reason why Gohan can't unleash his power? Is it just meant to reassure and motivate?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

The whole Gohan VS Cell segment was highly contrived in general. Gohan's desire to be pacifistic came out of nowhere and was in complete contrast not only to how he was both on Namek and prior to the Rosat, but how he should've been after spending a year with Goku training to defeat an enemy.

Overall, Gohan's character at that point in the arc was one big case of bad writing.

 

[ahill1]

It seems Gohan just couldn't let it go. He was still subconsciously holding back due to him not wanting to kill Cell. He wanted, but his pacifist nature was still holding him back somehow. Highly contrived though it was, it's how it was operated in the Cell Games arc.

 

[GreatSaiyanman]

The whole Gohan VS Cell segment was highly contrived in general. Gohan's desire to be pacifistic came out of nowhere and was in complete contrast not only to how he was both on Namek and prior to the Rosat, but how he should've been after spending a year with Goku training to defeat an enemy.

Overall, Gohan's character at that point in the arc was one big case of bad writing.

It's not that he was trying to push some pacifist agenda, he was just nervous at first. Even when he tells Cell he doesn't like to fight (something that's always been true), it's in an attempt to make Cell think he'll die if this continues and hope he scares him off. I don't have a problem with this part.

What I have a problem with is #16 telling Gohan about fighting evil being good as if Gohan was somehow struggling with the morality of this, DESPITE the fact that we literally see Gohan think to himself that he WANTS to beat Cell during the whole Cell Jr. thing. At no point prior did we see Gohan worry about whether it was right or wrong to fight Cell, just that he had no real desire to fight him like his Dad would.

 

[ahill1]

What I have a problem with is #16 telling Gohan about fighting evil being good as if Gohan was somehow struggling with the morality of this, DESPITE the fact that we literally see Gohan think to himself that he WANTS to beat Cell during the whole Cell Jr. thing. At no point prior did we see Gohan worry about whether it was right or wrong to fight Cell, just that he had no real desire to fight him like his Dad would.

He told Cell that he didn't want to kill him, despite knowing how evil he is. So it seems he was still struggling a little with the morality effect. Although he expressed his desire of finishing Cell, it seems that well deep on his mind the morality aspect was still holding him back, as per #16's dialogue. Similarly, Gohan also states that he is putting everything he has got in the final KMHMH clash despite Goku figuring out he was subconsciously holding back thinking on the damage that would be dealt to Earth.

 

[GreatSaiyanman]

What I have a problem with is #16 telling Gohan about fighting evil being good as if Gohan was somehow struggling with the morality of this, DESPITE the fact that we literally see Gohan think to himself that he WANTS to beat Cell during the whole Cell Jr. thing. At no point prior did we see Gohan worry about whether it was right or wrong to fight Cell, just that he had no real desire to fight him like his Dad would.

He told Cell that he didn't want to kill him, despite knowing how evil he is. So it seems he was still struggling a little with the morality effect. Although he expressed his desire of finishing Cell, it seems that well deep on his mind the morality aspect was still holding him back, as per #16's dialogue. Similarly, Gohan also states that he is putting everything he has got in the final KMHMH clash despite Goku figuring out he was subconsciously holding back thinking on the damage that would be dealt to Earth.

Of course he doesn't want to kill Cell - Gohan's a good, gentle person. Good people tend to not WANT to be put in a position where they have to kill someone, even if it's the right thing to do. If you asked Goku whether he WANTED to kill someone, he'd likely say no too (unless he was currently pissed off). Gohan telling Cell this isn't enough to conclude that he's struggling with the morality of whether he should do it or not.

As for the Kamehameha part, Gohan didn't want to hurt/kill innocent people. Simple as that.

 

[ahill1]

Gohan telling Cell this isn't enough to conclude that he's struggling with the morality of whether he should do it or not.

It's enough. It shows he was fine with Cell not being killed. It shows he wanted for this to be resolved in another way... In an alternative that there was no killing involved. #16 said that there are enemies whom with you can't talk things out... That is, he wanted another alternative.

As for the Kamehameha part, Gohan didn't want to hurt/kill innocent people. Simple as that.

It was an example of a case in which Gohan was subconsciously holding back. He thought he was giving his best, but something was still restraining him well deep on his mind.

 

[sei'taer]

The whole Gohan VS Cell segment was highly contrived in general. Gohan's desire to be pacifistic came out of nowhere and was in complete contrast not only to how he was both on Namek and prior to the Rosat, but how he should've been after spending a year with Goku training to defeat an enemy.

Overall, Gohan's character at that point in the arc was one big case of bad writing.

Gohan has never liked fighting though? The fact that he'd grow to fear losing himself in his anger is a natural extension of that.

 

[GreatSaiyanman]

It's enough. It shows he was fine with Cell not being killed. It shows he wanted for this to be resolved in another way... In an alternative that there was no killing involved. #16 said that there are enemies whom with you can't talk things out... That is, he wanted another alternative.

Of course Gohan would prefer there to be an alternative, that's pretty much always the case. What I'm saying is that preferring an alternative isn't the same as flat-out refusing to do something out of moral uncertainty.

It was an example of a case in which Gohan was subconsciously holding back. He thought he was giving his best, but something was still restraining him well deep on his mind.

But it makes sense why he'd hold back here, consciously or not, because Gohan is against harming innocent people. Cell isn't an innocent person, which makes harming him a different situation altogether.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

It's just similar in real life situation. For example, we want to clear our exams but we just couldn't do it that easily and we need more push to do it.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Gohan has never liked fighting though?

That doesn't mean he's completely against it, as he showed with his willingness to fight on Namek. His actions at the Cell Games were a complete regression of his previous character.

The fact that he'd grow to fear losing himself in his anger is a natural extension of that.

Despite having never had a burst of anger for 4 years (5 if counting the Rosat) and each time he did so proving him to be purely an asset to his allies.

 

[Boo Brand Milk]

Considering Gohan had no issue standing up to Recoome becoming pacifist at the genocidal Cell was just plain silly.

 

[GreatSaiyanman]

Gohan kicks Cell square in the face at one point, and charges right at Cell when he first threatens to involve his friends. The idea that Gohan was a pacifist during the Cell Games is just flat-out inaccurate.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Gohan kicks Cell square in the face at one point, and charges right at Cell when he first threatens to involve his friends. The idea that Gohan was a pacifist during the Cell Games is just flat-out inaccurate.

Only after having become angry, as made obvious by his expression. Prior to that, he wasn't putting up the slightest bit of resistance and clearly saying he didn't want to hurt Cell, with Piccolo making it apparent Gohan didn't want to fight. This is clearly inconsistent to on Namek and prior to the Rosat, in which Gohan was actively prepared to fight when he had to.

 

[GreatSaiyanman]

Only after having become angry, as made obvious by his expression. Prior to that, he wasn't putting up the slightest bit of resistance and clearly saying he didn't want to hurt Cell, with Piccolo making it apparent Gohan didn't want to fight. This is clearly inconsistent to on Namek and prior to the Rosat, in which Gohan was actively prepared to fight when he had to.

Gohan was hardly that angry when he kicked Cell in the face, at least no more so than he usually was when he attacked enemies without snapping. But regardless, Gohan staying on the defensive during his fight with Cell was out of nervousness and cautiousness, not because he refused to fight Cell. When Goku tells Gohan that it's his turn to fight Cell, he's clearly sweating and stutters even while saying he'll give it a shot. Typically on Namek, the enemy always enraged Gohan to the point where any nervousness gets drowned out by anger. Even against the Ginyu Force, they had stolen the Dragon Balls (his whole reason for being there in the first place) and injured Krillin before Gohan started spewing bravado about never giving up. Compare this to Cell, who had yet to do anything to set Gohan off, and it's clear why he's not such a fearless warrior anymore.

And like I said before, Gohan never WANTS to fight or kill, he does so obligatorily. Yes, he killed a Freeza soldier once, because he was following Krillin's directions against guys currently aiming to kill them. Against Cell, nobody's trying to outright kill each other yet,, and he can't just go and kill Cell with one punch like he did the soldier. Once he realizes Goku's plan, he tries to scare Cell off with talk of his hidden power since it's not something Gohan can just willingly bring out whenever he needs it. He tells Cell that the fight is pointless because Gohan has no desire to kill Cell, yet that's what will happen if his hidden power unleashes. This is not to be confused with Gohan outright refusing to kill Cell, just that it's not the most preferable method for him. And once Cell drags his friends into the mix with the Cell Jrs., we see Gohan thinking to himself how he WANTS to beat Cell and bring out his power.

There's a difference between not wanting to do something, and outright refusing to do something. If you asked Gohan after he killed that generic Freeza mook whether it was something he wanted to do, do you really think he would've said yes?

 

[Boo Brand Milk]

Gohan Killed Garlic jr

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Gohan was hardly that angry when he kicked Cell in the face, at least no more so than he usually was when he attacked enemies without snapping. But regardless, Gohan staying on the defensive during his fight with Cell was out of nervousness and cautiousness, not because he refused to fight Cell. When Goku tells Gohan that it's his turn to fight Cell, he's clearly sweating and stutters even while saying he'll give it a shot. Typically on Namek, the enemy always enraged Gohan to the point where any nervousness gets drowned out by anger. Even against the Ginyu Force, they had stolen the Dragon Balls (his whole reason for being there in the first place) and injured Krillin before Gohan started spewing bravado about never giving up. Compare this to Cell, who had yet to do anything to set Gohan off, and it's clear why he's not such a fearless warrior anymore.

Gohan didn't display great rage against Reacoom and absolutely none against Gurd. He simply did what he had to do, unlike against Cell where he willingly let Cell hit him without the slightest defence during the portion after Cell used his full speed.

Yes, he killed a Freeza soldier once, because he was following Krillin's directions against guys currently aiming to kill them.

Let's for a moment pretend we agree that Gohan wasn't pacifistic during the Cell Games. Gohan had already sensed Cell come very close to killing Piccolo (at which point Gohan was prepared to rush and fight him head-on), should have been made apparent on Cell's goal of causing terror and destroying the Earth (Cell showing himself as easily the most 1-dimensional, moustache-twirling typical villain Gohan had fought at this point) and it was apparent that Gohan was the only person with a chance of saving his friends against this foe. In what way does it make sense for Gohan to not fight in obligation to the safety of everyone he knows with what he knew and how examples such as against the Freeza Soldier or Gurd were for far less?

He tells Cell that the fight is pointless because Gohan has no desire to kill Cell, yet that's what will happen if his hidden power unleashes. This is not to be confused with Gohan outright refusing to kill Cell, just that it's not the most preferable method for him.

This would hold weight if not for the fact that whilst enraged, Gohan has never even killed anyone.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Something must have happened in the ROSAT for Gohan to changed his view on killing. He probably got affected by Gokusm.

 

[GreatSaiyanman]

Gohan didn't display great rage against Reacoom and absolutely none against Gurd. He simply did what he had to do, unlike against Cell where he willingly let Cell hit him without the slightest defence during the portion after Cell used his full speed.

...What? Gohan absolutely did not "willingly let Cell hit him". We clearly see him doing his best to dodge all of Cell's attacks. Or do you not remember him narrowly avoiding stuff like Cell's death beams? Gohan was clearly on the defensive the whole time. I don't know how you got "willingly letting Cell hit him" from that.

And again, the Ginyu Force just flew off with the Dragon Balls - Gohan's sole reason for going to Namek in the first place. Gohan even laments this after the fact. So yeah, they did piss him off, just not to an explosive extent.

Let's for a moment pretend we agree that Gohan wasn't pacifistic during the Cell Games. Gohan had already sensed Cell come very close to killing Piccolo (at which point Gohan was prepared to rush and fight him head-on), should have been made apparent on Cell's goal of causing terror and destroying the Earth (Cell showing himself as easily the most 1-dimensional, moustache-twirling typical villain Gohan had fought at this point) and it was apparent that Gohan was the only person with a chance of saving his friends against this foe. In what way does it make sense for Gohan to not fight in obligation to the safety of everyone he knows with what he knew and how examples such as against the Freeza Soldier or Gurd were for far less?

You're going by the anime, which is inaccurate. In the manga, you wanna know what Gohan did when Cell seemingly killed Piccolo?

He just stood there and shouted his name. That's it. He never made a single attempt to go save him. And he clearly didn't hold some sort of deep, personal resentment towards Cell after the fact, especially since Piccolo ended up surviving and healing just fine.

And you still seem to think that I'm arguing that Gohan make a conscious choice to not even try to fight against Cell, which isn't what I'm arguing. What I'm saying is that Gohan knew what he had to do, he was simply on the defensive for the most part due to having to deal with the sudden pressure he was put under, and due to Cell simply being more on the offensive. Gohan's own dad had just thrusted all responsibility of saving everyone on the planet from a foe not even he could beat on Gohan and Gohan alone. Of course the kid would be nervous, and we clearly see that he is when Goku first puts him on the spot. Against the Freeza soldier and Gurd, he was with Krillin, and he was actually stronger than the opponent (Gurd had to rely on his time stopping gimmick.)

This would hold weight if not for the fact that whilst enraged, Gohan has never even killed anyone.

I don't know what that has to do with anything. Gohan knows he's been tasked with defeating Cell, which likely means he would have to kill Cell. Whether or not he killed anyone while enraged before doesn't change that, as he knows he's going to have to kill Cell this time if he can't just scare him off.

But for the sake of being clear, I'll simply change what I said before to Gohan knows killing Cell is what MIGHT happen if his hidden power is powerful enough to do so.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

...What? Gohan absolutely did not "willingly let Cell hit him". We clearly see him doing his best to dodge all of Cell's attacks. Or do you not remember him narrowly avoiding stuff like Cell's death beams? Gohan was clearly on the defensive the whole time. I don't know how you got "willingly letting Cell hit him" from that.

Clearly you didn't notice the part where I mentioned "when Cell used his full speed."

Spoiler

Saying Gohan was surprised or that he wasn't able to react would be incorrect since, as you even pointed out, he was fully capable of dodging Cell's death beams later on.

And again, the Ginyu Force just flew off with the Dragon Balls - Gohan's sole reason for going to Namek in the first place. Gohan even laments this after the fact. So yeah, they did piss him off, just not to an explosive extent.

Cell almost killed his mentor figure not too long ago and had made his plan to destroy the Earth clear. You'd think either of these would be enough for Gohan to get pissed off, but apparently not.

You're going by the anime, which is inaccurate. In the manga, you wanna know what Gohan did when Cell seemingly killed Piccolo?

He just stood there and shouted his name. That's it. He never made a single attempt to go save him. And he clearly didn't hold some sort of deep, personal resentment towards Cell after the fact, especially since Piccolo ended up surviving and healing just fine.

You're right, as it's been a while since I read that portion. That doesn't change the fact that Gohan knew Piccolo almost died, more than enough reason for him to be prepared to fight Cell.

And you still seem to think that I'm arguing that Gohan make a conscious choice to not even try to fight against Cell, which isn't what I'm arguing. What I'm saying is that Gohan knew what he had to do, he was simply on the defensive for the most part due to having to deal with the sudden pressure he was put under, and due to Cell simply being more on the offensive. Gohan's own dad had just thrusted all responsibility of saving everyone on the planet from a foe not even he could beat on Gohan and Gohan alone. Of course the kid would be nervous, and we clearly see that he is when Goku first puts him on the spot. Against the Freeza soldier and Gurd, he was with Krillin, and he was actually stronger than the opponent (Gurd had to rely on his time stopping gimmick.)

Yet the same couldn't be said when he fought Freeza and was dead-set on beating him, even after his rage had subsided, or against Oozaru Vegeta when he turned back knowing Goku was in danger.

Cell had come just as close to killing Piccolo as Freeza did to Kuririn, held the power to do the same to any of Gohan's friends if he didn't resist and had made it apparent from his public motivations alone that reasoning wasn't a logical option, especially with the cells of Vegeta and Freeza inside him. Explain to me how, with all this, Gohan would think reasoning with Cell to bear fruit.

I don't know what that has to do with anything.

Your point was that knowing he may kill Cell was the catalyst behind him resisting to get angry, despite him having never accomplished this in the past and his one kill prior having come against a peon he could've easily just KO'd and captured.