If Gohan was a SSJ2

[p123]

Let's play a game, we will do what we can to make Gohan a Super Saiyan 2 fit the story.

Ok so the first thing I run into that makes me question this is Goku vs Yakkon. Everything preceding it seems fine, the way they talk about Dabura is fine if everyone is under the presumption everyone has Super Saiyan 2. Goku and Vegeta are confident about easily beating Dabura, but Gohan is not. This seems to hold true. The issue becomes the thought of Goku and Vegeta having Ssj2 being something unheard of. Which completely refutes the idea of Dabura being Ssj2 level. So... We have to change some things around imo...

First off, Ssj Goku isn't rated all that high compared to Dabura with Badibi's energy meter. Which bodes well for Gohan being a Ssj2. Also, Goku needing to turn SSJ2 to kill Yakon bodes well for this too because if Goku was that supressed, he could easily just increase his Super Saiyan power to blow up Yakkon and wouldn't need Ssj2. Alright let's move on.

Gohan's surprise at Goku and Vegeta fighting beyond the Ssj limit seems to be a deal breaker as well. We would have to change that. Damn,,, the flaws keep adding up..



I'll say the first problem I'm running into so far doesn't occur until Goku uses a Super Saiyan 2 burst to kill Yakkon.

Chapter: 451 (DBZ 257), P10.5
Context: after Goku makes Yakon explode with his Super Saiyan aura
Vegeta: “So that bastard Kakarot has also surpassed that wall…The Super Saiyan wall…â€￾


This one line completely ruins everything that preceded it. Goku and Vegeta's confidence over Dabura because they had Super Saiyan 2 does not make sense if Vegeta is just learning about Goku having Super Saiyan 2 now.


If you replace Vegeta's comment with something like " He's even stronger than I thought! ". It would allow the Gohan was a Ssj2 chain to continue. Let's see how many things we have to change to make this work.



Gohan's surprise at Goku's power could be the amount of power he showed, not so much that he showed a Super Saiyan 2 power. Although it does feel like Super Saiyan 2 power is indeed a surprise to Gohan and Vegeta at the time unfortunately.




So if we can change Vegeta and Gohan's surprise at what was shown against Yakkon being their surprise about the amount of power rather than the form, we have the thought of Goku suppressing his Base/SSJ power around Vegeta and Gohan's. That seems likely. It's quite possible that Vegeta and Goku are suppressing around Gohan's level throughout the duration as a bit of gamesmanship towards each other.

Or Goku at least suppressing to Vegeta's level since Goku/Vegeta is clearly being established as over Gohan even before they fight.

Before Dabura fights we have this....

Super Saiyan 2 Goku / Vegeta > Super Saiyan 2 Gohan / Dabura


The only problem I have is that Goku and Vegeta both say they can easily defeat Dabura, yet the surprise of the extent of Goku's power is what differentiates him from Vegeta, it's already established he's above GOhan.



God damn this is messy but bear with me.

Ok so I think I fixed a couple of issues already.



Goku shouldn't really have to ask Gohan if he had been training right before Dabura shows up. Goku was there with Vegeta as Gohan transformed into a Super Saiyan 2. Vegeta took it as Gohan's full power, which makes sense because suppressing Ssj2 doesn't seem likely.

So I really have to say this line seems bad. I would have to word it differently with the same point being brought across. Gohan has been slacking and such, but just that Goku was aware of it already, or at least aware of his weaker power.




Dabura being confident against all three Saiyans makes sense if he feels 3,000 kiri was the power of all the Saiyans. Which also is nifty because it adds to the thought that Perfect Cell is too much for Super Saiyans in general. Basically no Super Saiyan can reach Cell's level. I like that. Dabura thinks he can defeat all 3.

So essentially Perfect Cell / Dabura is to Super Saiyans what Fat Buu was to Super Saiyan 2s. And then Dabura is on par with a weak Ssj2 and Fat Buu on par with a weak Ssj3. Interesting.


Ok the next issue is clearly the art. Gohan is clearly drawn as a Super Saiyan against Dabura and not a Super Saiyan 2. We are going to have to fix that and have Gohan drawn as a Super Saiyan 2 if we should continue with this...

Either way, " he's tougher than I thought " is better than " he's stronger than I thought " regardless of Gohan's standing imo. We could discuss that more.



Vegeta complaining about Gohan being pathetic makes sense because Gohan is using his full power, he's using Ssj2. If Gohan was only using Ssj1 it begs the question why Vegeta wouldn't be screaming at Gohan to transform especially since he just showed Ssj2 several hours ago. Vegeta wouldn't understand that it was a delayed rage transformation or anything complicated like that. Everyone would be baffled why Gohan is losing and unwilling to transform. This is a major sell of the Gohan was a SSJ2 point, probably the biggest piece of evidence in the whole situation. It's unfathomable for no one to mention this should be only be a Super Saiyan.

The small movement of Buu's meter makes sense because Gohan only sustained a little damage. The fact that Gohan's small damage ratio can even move Buu's meter at all definitely suggests Gohan is a Super Saiyan 2 as well. A Super Saiyans slight damage wouldn't be able to budge it much.


Vegeta goes to intervene and Goku says he cmon he's still got a chance. If he was just a Super Saiyan this would be awkward. Gohan being a Super Saiyan 2 here makes sense.

We are going to have to assume that Vegeta is suppressing himself as he is being possessed. That his power hasn't changed at all, just the possession. Doesn't seem likely. But it's necessary to make Goku's surprise more realistic at Vegeta's Ssj2 power since we can't go with him being surprised about SSJ2.



Another issue is that it's suggested that Ssj Majin Vegeta can stop Kaioshin and Gohan and kill them. Doesn't feel like it's expected for him to have to transform to beat them imo...


Gohan using up a lot of stamina could fall in line with Gohan being a Ssj2 most likely imo...

Goku telling Gohan to get angry and draw out all the power he has ties into Gohan needing to tap into his hidden power. Which goes across fine, no reason to tell Gohan to transform into SSJ2 if he already was one. Goku talking about Enraged Gohan > Everyone is quite possible. Gohan's rage is unlike anything else, it could help Gohan surpass his dad and Vegeta again.

I'm thinking perhaps they can't sense ki outside of Badibi's ship while inside? Well even then they are transported back to the surface and don't notice the Ssj2s fighting. I guess when distracted enough, you won't notice even monstrous powers like that. Meanwhile Ssj Goku vs Freeza felt like powers that absolutely couldn't be ignored no matter where you were on the planet but I digress.

I'd probably like to add some hoopla about Goku and Vegeta transforming into Ssj2s, or there's gotta be a better way than how it was done. Pehaps being transported to another planet immediately so they couldn't sense Goku and Vegeta?


Gohan talking about being angry but unable to be how he was makes sense, he cannot be his fully enraged self anymore.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

This one line completely ruins everything that preceded it. Goku and Vegeta's confidence over Dabura because they had Super Saiyan 2 does not make sense if Vegeta is just learning about Goku having Super Saiyan 2 now.

Vegeta was confident in himself, he never said he believed in Goku.

 

[p123]

Na, it's well established that Vegeta and Goku can handle Dabura. It's established that Gohan cannot. This is all out in front of everyone. There's no reason why Vegeta would doubt Goku or Goku would doubt Vegeta.

You are reaching here.

 

[Lightsworn]

Herms clarified that Vegeta's line could also be translated as "expected"

In other words he said "as expected, that bastard has also surpassed the Super Saiyan wall. " those aren't the exact words, but that's the gist of it

Not to mention it doesn't make a lick of sense for Vegeta to think that Goku only has Super Saiyan amd that he didn't even slightly suspect he might've had Super Saiyan 2. Both Vegeta and Goku were confident in surpassing the Super Saiyan wall in the androids arc before it was even confirmed possible in one year. Seven years have gone by, and Vegeta is just in absolute denial that Goku could have Super Saiyan 2? Even though he knows how Goku always surpasses him like he did in the Freeza arc and him achieving the mastered Super Saiyan state that made him in awe of his Ki? That is so unlikely. I just really don't like the argument at all that they absolutely think that neither achieved uper Saiyan 2.

 

[p123]

As I mentioned, Vegeta speaking about the form at all seems strange if Dabura was strong. A better comment would be Vegeta commenting on his power, not the form.

Unfortunately the story has Vegeta and Goku both shocked that the other achieved Ssj2, it's crappy but it's reality. Just like how no one knows the kids have Super Saiyan. That's insane.

 

[Lightsworn]

If Vegeta says he expected Goku to have it, then hardly means he was surprised...because...well...he was expecting it already...

 

[p123]

If he really expected it, their would be no need to call Goku a bastard. Vegeta's comment doesn't make sense if Dabura is that strong. You need to modify his comment. Same thing with Gohan's reaction.

If we had to rewrite it, we would have Vegeta and Gohan making comments that highlighted the power more than the form. Imo.

Then, how do you explain how Vegeta doesn't notice Ssj Goku >>> Ssj Vegeta while fighting Yakkon?

 

[withheldforprivacy]

Na, it's well established that Vegeta and Goku can handle Dabura. It's established that Gohan cannot. This is all out in front of everyone. There's no reason why Vegeta would doubt Goku or Goku would doubt Vegeta.

You are reaching here.

Where does either Goku or Vegeta say ''both of us can handle Dabura''?

 

[p123]

Ok, so after the debacle of Gohan talking about Goku and Vegeta fighting above SSJ, which is a clearly indicator of this not working out, let's continue on.

Kaioshin tells Gohan to unleash his rage and show his true power.

Gohan senses Fat Buu's power and doesn't consider it a hopeless situation, if he could unleash his true power...

This seems to be a tough situation...


Goku/Vegeta/ True Power Gohan >>> Initial Buu >> Gohan


It doesn't seem possible that there could be that wide of a gap between the Ssj2 powers imo.

 

[Lightsworn]

If he really expected it, their would be no need to call Goku a bastard. Vegeta's comment doesn't make sense if Dabura is that strong. You need to modify his comment. Same thing with Gohan's reaction.

If we had to rewrite it, we would have Vegeta and Gohan making comments that highlighted the power more than the form. Imo.

Then, how do you explain how Vegeta doesn't notice Ssj Goku >>> Ssj Vegeta while fighting Yakkon?

Why are you bringing Dabra into a quote where he has no relevance? He literally said he expected, from his own mouth, so why argue otherwise? His face doesn't even show how any surprise, but one of a silent affirmation. Compare it to when he was actually surprised when Trunks transformed. His face nor his statement show any surprise, and literally says he expected it, nkr dors it make any logical sense, so why are you trying to make that the case?

 

[p123]

Do you have the quote?

 

[Lightsworn]

[No message]

 

[Clearin]

You still have Vegeta commenting multiple times that he could beat Dabura with Goku being shocked when Vegeta turns SSj2.

 

[Lightsworn]

You still have Vegeta commenting multiple times that he could beat Dabura with Goku being shocked when Vegeta turns SSj2.

Vegeta stated that him and Goku are stronger than Ssj2 Gohan, something that would require him to possess Ssj2. Unless Goku believes Ssj Vegeta > Ssj2 Gohan. So

 

[Clearin]

You still have Vegeta commenting multiple times that he could beat Dabura with Goku being shocked when Vegeta turns SSj2.

Vegeta stated that him and Goku are stronger than Ssj2 Gohan, something that would require him to possess Ssj2. Unless Goku believes Ssj Vegeta > Ssj2 Gohan. So

Goku believes Vegeta =/= SSj2.

Whether SSj Goku and Vegeta are above SSj2 Gohan is up in the air. There's nothing I can remember actually comparing them. With a small enough SSj2 multiplier, if Gohan had a rage boost in the Cell Games, followed by Gohan's loss of power, it'd be easy enough for them to do it. Of course not everyone thinks SSj2 Gohan in the Cell Games was boosted by rage, and I doubt many people actually use the x2 multiplier, but all I'm sayin is it's definitely possible and not contradicted.

 

[Lightsworn]

You still have Vegeta commenting multiple times that he could beat Dabura with Goku being shocked when Vegeta turns SSj2.

Vegeta stated that him and Goku are stronger than Ssj2 Gohan, something that would require him to possess Ssj2. Unless Goku believes Ssj Vegeta > Ssj2 Gohan. So

Goku believes Vegeta =/= SSj2.

Whether SSj Goku and Vegeta are above SSj2 Gohan is up in the air. There's nothing I can remember actually comparing them. With a small enough SSj2 multiplier, if Gohan had a rage boost in the Cell Games, followed by Gohan's loss of power, it'd be easy enough for them to do it. Of course not everyone thinks SSj2 Gohan in the Cell Games was boosted by rage, and I doubt many people actually use the x2 multiplier, but all I'm sayin is it's definitely possible and not contradicted.

Since you're asserting that he was shocked at Vegeta having Ssj2 then the only conclusion you must come to is that Super Saiyan Vegeta is above Ssj2 Gohan, no ands, ifs, or buts, because it is literally the only conclusion Goku can come to.

It also contradicts the idea of "surpassing the Super Saiyan wall" if you could just reach that level without even doing that.

 

[p123]

What about the 3,000 kiri? Dabura is clearly suggested stronger than that. Why have a power reading about a suppressed level? Why turn Ssj2 is he was very suppressed as a Super Saiyan?

 

[Lightsworn]

What about the 3,000 kiri? Dabura is clearly suggested stronger than that. Why have a power reading about a suppressed level? Why turn Ssj2 is he was very suppressed as a Super Saiyan?

This is also the only time the Kiri reading appears in the manga. For it to be wrong makes no sense.

 

[p123]

I agree. Also even though I believe Herms has it a bit different than Viz. The way Viz talks about how at the " level they are at now " Dabura who is ~ Cell is nothing. He would have been frightening back then though.

Seems to fit in line.

Honestly there's for sure evidence on both sides of the fence.

 

[Clearin]

Vegeta stated that him and Goku are stronger than Ssj2 Gohan, something that would require him to possess Ssj2. Unless Goku believes Ssj Vegeta > Ssj2 Gohan. So

Goku believes Vegeta =/= SSj2.

Whether SSj Goku and Vegeta are above SSj2 Gohan is up in the air. There's nothing I can remember actually comparing them. With a small enough SSj2 multiplier, if Gohan had a rage boost in the Cell Games, followed by Gohan's loss of power, it'd be easy enough for them to do it. Of course not everyone thinks SSj2 Gohan in the Cell Games was boosted by rage, and I doubt many people actually use the x2 multiplier, but all I'm sayin is it's definitely possible and not contradicted.

Since you're asserting that he was shocked at Vegeta having Ssj2 then the only conclusion you must come to is that Super Saiyan Vegeta is above Ssj2 Gohan, no ands, ifs, or buts, because it is literally the only conclusion Goku can come to.

It also contradicts the idea of "surpassing the Super Saiyan wall" if you could just reach that level without even doing that.

The "Super Saiyan wall" isn't a maximum power a Super Saiyan can achieve - we know this due to the fact Super Saiyans get stronger and stronger long after Gohan first broke the Super Saiyan wall.

In fact it's a direct comparison to the way Goku was referred to break the Saiyan wall back when he had a power level of 90,000, and Vegeta suggested this was key to unlocking Super Saiyan. Yet base Saiyans kept growing after that, to the point where most people agree base saiyans got stronger than Goku first was as a Super Saiyan. So Super Saiyans can grow past the minimum level of a Super Saiyan 2 easily.