If Gohan was a SSJ2

[Lightsworn]

Goku believes Vegeta =/= SSj2.

Whether SSj Goku and Vegeta are above SSj2 Gohan is up in the air. There's nothing I can remember actually comparing them. With a small enough SSj2 multiplier, if Gohan had a rage boost in the Cell Games, followed by Gohan's loss of power, it'd be easy enough for them to do it. Of course not everyone thinks SSj2 Gohan in the Cell Games was boosted by rage, and I doubt many people actually use the x2 multiplier, but all I'm sayin is it's definitely possible and not contradicted.

Since you're asserting that he was shocked at Vegeta having Ssj2 then the only conclusion you must come to is that Super Saiyan Vegeta is above Ssj2 Gohan, no ands, ifs, or buts, because it is literally the only conclusion Goku can come to.

It also contradicts the idea of "surpassing the Super Saiyan wall" if you could just reach that level without even doing that.

The "Super Saiyan wall" isn't a maximum power a Super Saiyan can achieve - we know this due to the fact Super Saiyans get stronger and stronger long after Gohan first broke the Super Saiyan wall.

In fact it's a direct comparison to the way Goku was referred to break the Saiyan wall back when he had a power level of 90,000, and Vegeta suggested this was key to unlocking Super Saiyan. Yet base Saiyans kept growing after that, to the point where most people agree base saiyans got stronger than Goku first was as a Super Saiyan. So Super Saiyans can grow past the minimum level of a Super Saiyan 2 easily.

So you do believe Ssj Vegeta > Ssj2 Gohan?

 

[Clearin]

Since you're asserting that he was shocked at Vegeta having Ssj2 then the only conclusion you must come to is that Super Saiyan Vegeta is above Ssj2 Gohan, no ands, ifs, or buts, because it is literally the only conclusion Goku can come to.

It also contradicts the idea of "surpassing the Super Saiyan wall" if you could just reach that level without even doing that.

The "Super Saiyan wall" isn't a maximum power a Super Saiyan can achieve - we know this due to the fact Super Saiyans get stronger and stronger long after Gohan first broke the Super Saiyan wall.

In fact it's a direct comparison to the way Goku was referred to break the Saiyan wall back when he had a power level of 90,000, and Vegeta suggested this was key to unlocking Super Saiyan. Yet base Saiyans kept growing after that, to the point where most people agree base saiyans got stronger than Goku first was as a Super Saiyan. So Super Saiyans can grow past the minimum level of a Super Saiyan 2 easily.

So you do believe Ssj Vegeta > Ssj2 Gohan?

I said I believe it's a possibility but there's nothing at all comparing them. I generally don't believe anything that's 50/50 on both sides. Nothing says SSj Vegeta is stronger or weaker.

 

[Lightsworn]

The "Super Saiyan wall" isn't a maximum power a Super Saiyan can achieve - we know this due to the fact Super Saiyans get stronger and stronger long after Gohan first broke the Super Saiyan wall.

In fact it's a direct comparison to the way Goku was referred to break the Saiyan wall back when he had a power level of 90,000, and Vegeta suggested this was key to unlocking Super Saiyan. Yet base Saiyans kept growing after that, to the point where most people agree base saiyans got stronger than Goku first was as a Super Saiyan. So Super Saiyans can grow past the minimum level of a Super Saiyan 2 easily.

So you do believe Ssj Vegeta > Ssj2 Gohan?

I said I believe it's a possibility but there's nothing at all comparing them. I generally don't believe anything that's 50/50 on both sides. Nothing says SSj Vegeta is stronger or weaker.

Vegeta says that both he and Goku have surpassed Ssj2 Gohan. Goku has three options:

1: Ssj2 Vegeta > Ssj2 Gohan.

2: Ssj Vegeta > Ssj2 Gohan

3: Base Vegeta > Ssj2 Gohan


Interestingly enough Vegeta stated they surpassed him after Goku's Ssj2 burst. So you must believe Ssj Vegeta > Ssj2 Vegeta based on what you asserted earlier.

 

[Six Trails]

It must be option 3. Kaioshin didn't make a big deal over SS2 Gohan yet pretty much creamed himself over Base Vegeta @ Pocus.

Base Vegeta > SS2 Gohan.

 

[Clearin]

He said both he and Goku are stronger than Gohan. You're the one who added SSj2. Personally I think if we had to add our own form into his statement it'd be base. A Saiyans base power is their real power, and transformations merely mess with it.

I'd be more than happy to believe SSj Vegeta > SSj2 Gohan though if you think there's no other way.

Interestingly enough Vegeta stated they surpassed him after Goku's Ssj2 burst. So you must believe Ssj Vegeta > Ssj2 Vegeta based on what you asserted earlier.

What did I say to imply SSj Vegeta > SSj2 Vegeta?

But you'd have to explain why Goku is surprised that Vegeta has SSj2 if that line means what you think it means?

 

[Lightsworn]

[No message]

 

[Clearin]

[No message]

 

[Lightsworn]

[No message]

 

[Clearin]

Vegeta doesn't turn Super Saiyan 2 during the possession scene, I just checked it over. He does seem to turn Super Saiyan 2 during the "you may invade my mind and my body yadda yadda" panel, but unless he was suppressed that just further complicates Goku's surprise. The sparks could just be a side effect of Babidi's magic...eh kinda reaching. I think he'd have to be SSj2 there, but suppressed.

 

[Lightsworn]

I don't have a problem with Goku assuming that it was his full power at that moment. That power could represent his full power before Babidi's boost. If you admit that he was Ssj2 there then Goku can't be surprised that he was Ssj2 because he just saw it. I'd rather go with my explanation that he assumed it was his full power than for him to ignore Vegeta's statement the Ssj2 appearance right in front if him, and to just ignore logic(they assumed they would surpass the Ssj wall in one year in the android arc before it was confirmed possible)

 

[p123]

Well two of the statements suggesting Gohan was a Super Saiyan are debunked by Herms.

Vegeta expected Goku to be a Ssj2 and Gohan says that Goku and Vegeta are fighting at a level that further surpasses Super Saiyan not just surpasses Super Saiyan

 

[withheldforprivacy]

You still have Vegeta commenting multiple times that he could beat Dabura with Goku being shocked when Vegeta turns SSj2.

What did you expect Goku to say? ''No, Vegeta, don't be confident, you can't beat him''?

 

[Clearin]

You still have Vegeta commenting multiple times that he could beat Dabura with Goku being shocked when Vegeta turns SSj2.

What did you expect Goku to say? ''No, Vegeta, don't be confident, you can't beat him''?

If Dabura was stronger than SSj Vegeta I would expect Goku to have assume Vegeta has SSj2 based on these claims.

 

[SSJ2]

p, don't succumb to this faggotry.

 

[Lightsworn]

You still have Vegeta commenting multiple times that he could beat Dabura with Goku being shocked when Vegeta turns SSj2.

What did you expect Goku to say? ''No, Vegeta, don't be confident, you can't beat him''?

If Dabura was stronger than SSj Vegeta I would expect Goku to have assume Vegeta has SSj2 based on these claims.

Mind you, Goku and Vegeta believed they would surpass the Super Saiyan wall in the Androids arc in one year before it was even confirmed possible. Seven years had gone by, it would be strange if neither of them expected anything. Vegeta stated he expected Goku to have Super Saiyan 2, so there would be no reason why Goku wouldn't expect the same thing like he did in the androids arc.

He overheard Vegeta's confidence in taking on Gohan at the Budokai, someone who he knows has Super Saiyan 2. Vegeta states both he and Goku are stronger than Gohan but doubts his superiority if Gohan were to become enraged, which means they're superior to everything Gohan has shown so far, which includes his power at the Budokai. You can believe SSJ Vegeta is stronger than SSJ2 Gohan if you want, but it is unecessary. I'd rather take it as an obvious hints that Vegeta had Super Saiyan 2 since his statement comes after Goku reveals his Super Saiyan 2.

Dabra is compared to Cell. I don't recall there ever being a time where a character has claimed "A is as strong as B" and was referring to a suppressed level, because that wouldn't be how strong that character is. From a narrative point, there is no reason to assume he is referring to a suppressed version of Cell since that wouldn't be how strong Cell is.

Dabra urges all the Saiyans to attack him at once, even after gaining knowledge of Super Saiyan Goku's power, which puts him far beyond Super Saiyan tier. When Goku was shown to be suppressed in his Super Saiyan state, his aura would disappear. This is also the only time in the entire manga that the Kiri system is introduced. It would serve no purpose for it to appear once just for it to serve as false information for Super Saiyan Goku's power.

Overall, I don't think the idea of "Goku nor Vegeta, knew they had Super Saiyan 2" makes sense when you look at the andrloid arcc and certain statements in the Boo Arc.

 

[p123]

I think it's more likely that Gohan is a Super Saiyan, but that's fucking stupid. Gohan has already gotten weaker, he's going to lose the new form too? Fuck that noise man.

 

[ahill1]

Yea it's more likely Gohan was a SSJ IMO, but there are evidences to both side.

 

[Lightsworn]

Weird how before I was mocked for believing he is a Super Saiyan 2. Before the art ended all arguments but now suddenly it's being acknowledged that both sides have evidence.

 

[Kyo]

I think only SSJ2 actually mocked you outright (and he still does )