Imperfect Cell Kamehameha

[Power Level Guy]

When was Goku's Kamehameha harvested for data? I would argue that the original Kamehameha is what Cell inherited. Or possibly the Kaioken Kamehameha, which has no amp. But, I am leaning towards the original Kamehameha.

 

[SSJ2]

It would have been well after the RRA was destroyed. I highly doubt Gero instantaneously had robots tracking Goku after the RRA was destroyed. It’s probably the Super Kamehameha at the very least.

 

[Power Level Guy]

It would have been well after the RRA was destroyed. I highly doubt Gero instantaneously had robots tracking Goku after the RRA was destroyed. It’s probably the Super Kamehameha at the very least.

In the anime, Gero says he's been tracking Goku since the 22nd World Tournament.

The Super Kamehameha was an impressive attack. Certainly Piccolo's disdain for Cell's Kamehameha must be coming from the original Kamehameha, don't you think?

 

[SSJ2]

By the time of Z the original Super Kamehameha should have been surpassed easily. By the Cell Arc even the Saiyan arc Kamehameha should be considered weak.

 

[Power Level Guy]

By the time of Z the original Super Kamehameha should have been surpassed easily.

As they prepare for Raditz, Piccolo asks Goku if he has any new moves. Goku says no.

By the Cell Arc even the Saiyan arc Kamehameha should be considered weak.

I agree with this. The Androids Saga amp is higher than the Saiyan Saga amp. So what's the amp you have for Kamehameha in the Androids Saga?

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Kaioken Kamehameha sounds good to me. Piccolo managed to dodge his Kamehameha, even though he is nowhere near 2x above his power.

 

[SSJ2]

As they prepare for Raditz, Piccolo asks Goku if he has any new moves. Goku says no.

I mean surpassed in amp. Piccolo asks if Goku has a new "secret technique". The Kamehameha is not new by any means.

I agree with this. The Androids Saga amp is higher than the Saiyan Saga amp. So what's the amp you have for Kamehameha in the Androids Saga?

Bare minimum 3x if it has surpassed the Saiyan arc KHH.

Also it's literally stated in the manga that Goku's cells were collected 3 years ago in the Saiyan arc.

So you're forced to go with 1 of 2 options. Either Goku/Piccolo were stronger than the 408/416 that was picked up on the scouter by Raditz, or the KHH in the Android arc is at least a 3-4x amp.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

The Kamehameha isn't a multiplier.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Kaioken Kamehameha sounds good to me. Piccolo managed to dodge his Kamehameha, even though he is nowhere near 2x above his power.

Yeah, I think that's our only option here.

 

[SSJ2]

That's some premium headcanon guys. Cell literally has Goku's cells. He is capable of everything that Goku at that time was capable of. It's ridiculous to assume that Cell would randomly have no amplification on the KHH unless he was also using Kaioken while releasing it.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

He has "amplification". We just don't understand it because Toriyama never cared to explain it.

Tell me what you think SSJ2. Is Goku and Piccolo being >>400ish not headcanon? Is Kaio-Ken nullifying Ki amp stated anywhere? Or are you telling me with a straight face that Piccolo thinks Cell more than doubling his power is trash?

 

[SSJ2]

Or are you telling me with a straight face that Piccolo thinks Cell more than doubling his power is trash?

Yup, the rest is headcanon that I don't believe in. The point is that you guys have preconceived notions about "blast logic" that are simply wrong. We have to go with what is shown in the manga, and it's very simple.

Cell has all of Goku's capabilities from 3 years ago. Piccolo trained with Goku during the 3 year gap and can confidently say that Goku's KHH from back then was trash, so obviously it had to improve significantly. This is something you guys will have to learn to reconcile with your battle powers.

 

[Power Level Guy]

We have to go with what is shown in the manga, and it's very simple.

What is shown is that Final Burst Cannon holds an impressive amplifcation.

This is something you guys will have to learn to reconcile with your battle powers.

It's beyond the battle powers. It's a narrative element.

Are you saying Piccolo considers Goku's Kamehameha against Freeza to be pitiful?

 

[SSJ2]

What is shown is that Final Burst Cannon holds an impressive amplifcation.

Entirely different situation. Freeza had to increase his effort level and actually knock the blast back because Vegeta was going to destroy the planet. Cell clearly wasn't trying to destroy the earth so it was simple for Piccolo to dodge it, even if the blast was stronger than himself.

It's beyond the battle powers. It's a narrative element.

Are you saying Piccolo considers Goku's Kamehameha against Freeza to be pitiful?

Obviously not, because at the time that was the best Goku could do. 3 years later, Piccolo literally tells you that Goku's KHH was pitiful 3 years ago. I'm astounded that you're even arguing this when it's blatantly stated in the manga.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Cell clearly wasn't trying to destroy the earth so it was simple for Piccolo to dodge it, even if the blast was stronger than himself.

The amp would be the same. So you think narratively speaking, Piccolo would pish posh the Final Burst Cannon if Vegeta used it in the Androids Saga? Like if Vegeta instead of using Big Bang Attack and used Galick Gun, Piccolo would be all "Oh that attack is piss weak, dawg"?

Obviously not, because at the time that was the best Goku could do. 3 years later, Piccolo literally tells you that Goku's KHH was pitiful 3 years ago. I'm astounded that you're even arguing this when it's blatantly stated in the manga.

Ok and I'm asking you to keep that same energy all the way through. To accept the full consequences of your choice here.

 

[SSJ2]

The amp would be the same. So you think narratively speaking, Piccolo would pish posh the Final Burst Cannon if Vegeta used it in the Androids Saga? Like if Vegeta instead of using Big Bang Attack and used Galick Gun, Piccolo would be all "Oh that attack is piss weak, dawg"?

Your mistake is thinking that the amplification is static between arcs. Vegeta's Final Burst Cannon should increase from arc to arc as he becomes a greater master of Ki control. Would it be weaker than the attacks that he chooses to use in it's place? Sure. Yet it should still far surpass itself in prior arcs. This is literally what Piccolo tells us is happening with Goku's KHH. The logic should apply to any Ki master.

To accept the full consequences of your choice here.

Which are?

 

[Power Level Guy]

Your mistake is thinking that the amplification is static between arcs.

That's what Piccolo's statement implies. Previous saga amps were trash to current saga amps.

Vegeta's Final Burst Cannon should increase from arc to arc as he becomes a greater master of Ki control.

I'm talking about the specific amp he used against Freeza.

Which are?

The idea that the Galick Gun is a pitiful, piss weak amp is what you'd have to accept.

 

[Hector]

Normal KHH: 1.33x
Super KHH (23rd TB): 1.5x
Buff Roshi's KHH: 5x
Androids Saga KHH: 5x

 

[Power Level Guy]

Normal KHH: 1.33x
Super KHH (23rd TB): 1.5x
Buff Roshi's KHH: 5x
Androids Saga KHH: 5x

It’s unlikely for Goku’s Kamehameha to have gone a radical improvement from 23rd Budokai to Raditz.

Remember, going from 1.33 to 1.5x brought about a whole new name change, is treated like a completely new move. But then to go from 1.5 to 2.22x occurs with a whimper? Nah…

Galick Gun is 1.33x and Big Bang Attack is 1.5

Kamehameha scales with Vegeta’s amp

 

[Kyo]

Kamehameha scales with Vegeta’s amp

Why? You made this part up and I've never seen a single argument for it that doesn't boil down to "because it should be that way." Is it because Vegeta says that the KHH (the Kaioken KHH, mind) is "like" his own blast?