Imperfect Cell Kamehameha

[Power Level Guy]

Why? You made this part up and I've never seen a single argument for it that doesn't boil down to "because it should be that way." Is it because Vegeta says that the KHH (the Kaioken KHH, mind) is "like" his own blast?

Well, I'm trying to help SSJ2's argument. If you think Kamehameha >>> Galick Gun, that means on Namek, Piccolo thinks Final Burst Cannon is a pitiful amp. That's your new narrative.

 

[Hector]

It’s unlikely for Goku’s Kamehameha to have gone a radical improvement from 23rd Budokai to Raditz.

Remember, going from 1.33 to 1.5x brought about a whole new name change, is treated like a completely new move. But then to go from 1.5 to 2.22x occurs with a whimper? Nah…

Galick Gun is 1.33x and Big Bang Attack is 1.5

Kamehameha scales with Vegeta’s amp

I think it remained a 1.5x in the Saiyans Saga too.

 

[Power Level Guy]

I think it remained a 1.5x in the Saiyans Saga too.

Oh ok, now we are cooking. So you boost Goku up at the Saiyan Saga?

 

[SSJ2]

That's what Piccolo's statement implies. Previous saga amps were trash to current saga amps.

I don't know if I'm misunderstanding you or vice versa but this is exactly what I'm saying. A Final Burst Cannon in the Android arc would be greatly superior to the same attack on Namek.

I'm talking about the specific amp he used against Freeza.

Yeah, this should be considered weak by Android arc standards.

The idea that the Galick Gun is a pitiful, piss weak amp is what you'd have to accept.

I mean yeah, where's the problem here? The numbers lay this one out for us. Vegeta at ~18k matched 24k Goku. That's a pretty small amp when Goku and Piccolo already demonstrated far superior amp against Raditz.

 

[Power Level Guy]

I don't know if I'm misunderstanding you or vice versa but this is exactly what I'm saying. A Final Burst Cannon in the Android arc would be greatly superior to the same attack on Namek.

Yes, there is a misunderstanding. I'm saying, due to your narrative, Piccolo would consider the Final Burst Cannon level of amp, ON NAMEK, to be pitiful.

How odd would it be for Piccolo to be thinking about how weak Vegeta's amp was on Namek? Even in retrospect. That would be the most insane narrative to follow imo.

Yeah, this should be considered weak by Android arc standards.

Ok, this amp at minimum would be 1.33x.

I mean yeah, where's the problem here? The numbers lay this one out for us. Vegeta at ~18k matched 24k Goku. That's a pretty small amp when Goku and Piccolo already demonstrated far superior amp against Raditz.

Ok, but that's at minimum. It's Goku's amp, not Vegeta's. We know Goku's amp is 2.22x.

So now that 2.22x is pitiful, everything below it is absolutely garbage. Do you see where I'm going with this?

 

[SSJ2]

Yes, there is a misunderstanding. I'm saying, due to your narrative, Piccolo would consider the Final Burst Cannon level of amp, ON NAMEK, to be pitiful.

How odd would it be for Piccolo to be thinking about how weak Vegeta's amp was on Namek? Even in retrospect. That would be the most insane narrative to follow imo.

You're looking at this from the wrong angle. Vegeta's amp on Namek is besides the point. He could have zero amp on his attack and it would still be multiple times stronger than Piccolo. If Piccolo was Vegeta's equal on Namek, then yes, he'd consider that attack to be pathetic.

Ok, but that's at minimum. It's Goku's amp, not Vegeta's. We know Goku's amp is 2.22x.

So now that 2.22x is pitiful, everything below it is absolutely garbage. Do you see where I'm going with this?

I really fail to see the problem with it.

 

[Power Level Guy]

You're looking at this from the wrong angle. Vegeta's amp on Namek is besides the point.

Ok, so now you introduced a different narrative then the one being sold.

He could have zero amp on his attack and it would still be multiple times stronger than Piccolo.

The argument has never been FBC > Piccolo. We know that. The argument is would Piccolo consider FBC's amp pitiful.

If Piccolo was Vegeta's equal on Namek, then yes, he'd consider that attack to be pathetic.

Ok now we are talking. So Galick Gun is a pitiful amp then is the narrative you are suggesting happened.

I really fail to see the problem with it.

Ok, if 2.22x is pitiful, what is Light Grenade? 3.33x? 4x?

 

[SSJ2]

Ok, so now you introduced a different narrative then the one being sold

No I didn't. I don't think you've understood my position from the get go. I've been very clear that the Saiyan arc Ki amp is pathetic in general. But it's a time relative thing. At the time of the Saiyan arc obviously it was not pitiful.

Ok now we are talking. So Galick Gun is a pitiful amp then is the narrative you are suggesting happened.

Yeah I've been saying this from the start.

Ok, if 2.22x is pitiful, what is Light Grenade? 3.33x? 4x?

Yep. 4x seems pretty good to me. There is absolutely no reason for Piccolo to be in the same vicinity as Imperfect Cell post humans.

 

[Power Level Guy]

No I didn't. I don't think you've understood my position from the get go. I've been very clear that the Saiyan arc Ki amp is pathetic in general. But it's a time relative thing. At the time of the Saiyan arc obviously it was not pitiful.

Ok, but you concede 2.22x is pitiful by Android Saga standards?

Yep. 4x seems pretty good to me. There is absolutely no reason for Piccolo to be in the same vicinity as Imperfect Cell post humans.

Fair enough, you stayed consistent all the way through regardless of the consequences. I can't knock it.

 

[SSJ2]

Ok, but you concede 2.22x is pitiful by Android Saga standards?

Absolutely. I think that major attacks are bare minimum 3x amplification by the Android arc.

Fair enough, you stayed consistent all the way through regardless of the consequences. I can't knock it.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Absolutely. I think that major attacks are bare minimum 3x amplification by the Android arc.

Respect.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Yup, the rest is headcanon that I don't believe in. The point is that you guys have preconceived notions about "blast logic" that are simply wrong. We have to go with what is shown in the manga, and it's very simple.

Cell has all of Goku's capabilities from 3 years ago. Piccolo trained with Goku during the 3 year gap and can confidently say that Goku's KHH from back then was trash, so obviously it had to improve significantly. This is something you guys will have to learn to reconcile with your battle powers.

What’s shown in the manga is that Cell’s Kamehameha is pathetic. How is doubling his power pathetic? Would Piccolo have reacted the same way if Cell used Kaio-Ken?

 

[SSJ2]

What’s shown in the manga is that Cell’s Kamehameha is pathetic. How is doubling his power pathetic? Would Piccolo have reacted the same way if Cell used Kaio-Ken?

Doubling his power is pathetic compared to what they can do now. How is it this hard to understand?

 

[Hector]

Oh ok, now we are cooking. So you boost Goku up at the Saiyan Saga?

It's the only way for the implied gaps to fit in (BOZ Tenshinhan < Mr Popo << Kami << 23rd TB Goku << BOZ Goku). Obviously 416 was his suppressed power.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

@SSJ2 here’s one thing I don’t get. Is Gohan’s Saiyan Saga Masenko really so strong if everyone can more than double their powers? Like, Kuririn is 1500ish and a random KHH from him easily goes over 3000. Or do you think that Masenko was overrated?

 

[SSJ2]

Not everyone could amp that high in the Saiyan arc. Krillin's strongest attack wasn't even able to scratch suppressed Nappa and Vegeta.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Makes sense. The Super Kamehameha was Goku-only at first too, but I’m not sure when Kuririn ever learned it (if at all, but he prolly did).

What about Piccolo? I remember he fires a blast that looks like the Makkankosappo, and another that burns Nappa’s back quite badly.

 

[SSJ2]

The one that burned Nappa was when Piccolo was half dead already, not to mention Nappa was completely off guard.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Hmm, I think you are right Ssj2. Goku's cells from this time shouldn't be effected by any sort of Kaioken Kamehameha amp. I think you win this.

Cell's 2.22x amp is pathetic. Lol

 

[SSJ2]

The fact of the matter is that Ki amplification progressed at a rapid pace. There is no reason to believe that wouldn’t continue, especially given what Piccolo says about the Saiyan arc amp.