Is Cell's "true speed" power up a misconception?

[Hector]

Recently, Saiyaman brought up points that troubled me. Why would Cell power up briefly to the extent of one shotting an opponent hugely stronger than Goku only to be eager to fight the small fry (Goku) again? I decided to analyze the statements more carefully.

1. When Cell powered up against Goku, his power fluctuated within a range between enjoying an even fight with Goku and being able to speedblitz him by increasing his effort a little if he got bored of the fight being dragged on.

Goku: 90
Cell (powered up): fluctuates between 90-100.

2. When Gohan powers up, Cell says that Goku's statements were not entirely a bluff. I think the bolded part can be interpreted as something like, "Okay, you're as strong as your daddy more or less, but you're a much worse fighter than him; I'll kill you without exerting effort." When Cell saw Gohan wasn't a pushover, he once again increased his effort from 90 to 100 and speedblitzed him as hard as he'd done to Goku earlier. And it didn't help that Gohan wasn't as willing to fight back as Goku.

Gohan (expected): 85
Cell: 90
Gohan: 95
Cell (increased effort): 100

 

[ahill1]

I don't agree, but I gotta say, it's not out of the realm of possibility. It's an interesting take, I'd say.

 

[SSJ2]

The problem with this logic is it's ignoring half of the context surrounding that statement. Goku told Cell that Gohan was stronger than himself and Cell, also that Gohan could beat Cell. So when Gohan powered up, it was clear to Cell that even though Gohan was stronger than Goku, there was no chance he'd be able to complete against Cell's full power. He was still miles away.

When Goku asked Gohan if his fight was too difficult for Gohan to keep up with, Gohan was doing his best not to hurt Goku's feelings there. He didn't want to admit that his dad was not all that strong in comparison.

Spoiler

It's very difficult to read all of this and come to the conclusion that Gohan was close to on par with Goku. He literally says that he isn't amazed by Goku's full power.

 

[ahill1]

The problem with this logic is it's ignoring half of the context surrounding that statement. Goku told Cell that Gohan was stronger than himself and Cell, also that Gohan could beat Cell. So when Gohan powered up, it was clear to Cell that even though Gohan was stronger than Goku, there was no chance he'd be able to complete against Cell's full power. He was still miles away.

When Goku asked Gohan if his fight was too difficult for Gohan to keep up with, Gohan was doing his best not to hurt Goku's feelings there. He didn't want to admit that his dad was not all that strong in comparison.

Spoiler

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It's very difficult to read all of this and come to the conclusion that Gohan was close to on par with Goku. He literally says that he isn't amazed by Goku's full power.

Well, if he expected Goku to be >>> him, why'd he be amazed if Goku ends up slightly below him? If you expect a 15 and gets a 9... That won't sound amazing

 

[SSJ2]

It's the dismissiveness of Gohan asking why people are amazed at all. He's literally telling us that Goku isn't all that, he's confused as to why people think he's the best.

 

[SSJ2]

Also @ahill1 I know you're playing devil's advocate, but to add the my last post.

All of this is only taking into account Gohan's psyche and a statement from Cell that leaves some room for interpretation.

There is little room for interpretation when looking at the feats. First of all, by Vegeta's admission, Cell was not only one, but two steps ahead of Goku. Being a step ahead of someone already implies a gap, but two steps implies a sizeable gap. Then Gohan enters the fight and is easily two steps ahead of that Cell. Cell has to increase his speed and yet he is still incapable of damaging Gohan. You can argue that Gohan was still a step ahead of even true speed Cell.

Goku </< Cell (vs Goku) </< Gohan

That's leaving true speed Cell out of it and we already have that much of a gap. There's simply no way Gohan and Goku are close.

 

[ahill1]

Also @ahill1 I know you're playing devil's advocate, but to add the my last post.

All of this is only taking into account Gohan's psyche and a statement from Cell that leaves some room for interpretation.

There is little room for interpretation when looking at the feats. First of all, by Vegeta's admission, Cell was not only one, but two steps ahead of Goku. Being a step ahead of someone already implies a gap, but two steps implies a sizeable gap. Then Gohan enters the fight and is easily two steps ahead of that Cell. Cell has to increase his speed and yet he is still incapable of damaging Gohan. You can argue that Gohan was still a step ahead of even true speed Cell.

Goku </< Cell (vs Goku) </< Gohan

That's leaving true speed Cell out of it and we already have that much of a gap. There's simply no way Gohan and Goku are close.

I'm just saying that the quote from Gohan alone, of wondering why they are all surprised, doesn't constitute solid evidence for Gohan to be much stronger than his father. He acknowledged his father was incredible, but...

... He expected someone way above his own power. Even if Goku was slightly below Gohan, that quote could be easily made as Gohan is expecting someone way more powerful. It doesn't tell the width of the gap at all, it just tells us that Goku's power fell short on Gohan's expectations, as expecting someone >>> you and getting someone <= you would warrant this lack of surprise all the same.

As for the other point, I agree, I think Gohan is above the Cell who was actually one or two steps (in the original, Vegeta said 1 OR. 2) but Gohan can be beyond that level of Cell by more or less the same amount Cell was above Goku for all I know. With a 24 vs 22 gap, Zarbon was having trouble even hitting Vegeta. So I think something like:

Goku : 100
Cell (vs Goku) : 110
Gohan : 120
Cell (vs Gohan) : 132

May be all that's needed. I don't see the issue with a 1.2x gap. A considerable difference, but not a big one or a heavy, wayyy pronounced one imho.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Kid Gohan > Teen Gohan > CG Goku

Kid Gohan is way above Goku

 

[Hector]

Kid Gohan > Teen Gohan > CG Goku

Kid Gohan is way above Goku

I theorize Kid and Teen Gohan are equal in Base/SSJ forms.

 

[Power Level Guy]

I theorize Kid and Teen Gohan are equal in Base/SSJ forms.

They are stated not to be. Vegeta explicitly states Super Saiyan Kid Gohan > Super Saiyan Teen Gohan.

 

[Hector]

They are stated not to be. Vegeta explicitly states Super Saiyan Kid Gohan > Super Saiyan Teen Gohan.

Vegeta's statement can be interpreted that way only if you believe Gohan was SSJ1 against Dabura.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Vegeta's statement can be interpreted that way only if you believe Gohan was SSJ1 against Dabura.

He's drawn as a Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan Majin Vegeta is clearly implied to be his superior.

 

[ahill1]

Kid Gohan > Teen Gohan > CG Goku

Kid Gohan is way above Goku

It depends on what you call way above. 1.2x/1.25x can be way above for some... Or for some, better described as a noticeable, considerable difference, but not in a too much above range. Since I factor in a boost on top of the already common one for SSJ2 in the CGs, I think the gap between teen and kid Gohan exists in all states, but is more pronounced, noticeable, apparent as SSJ2. Funnily enough, it's precisely when teen Gohan turns SSJ2 that Vegeta stated he was way more powerful as a kid. He had seen him in SSJ before... But didn't openly say it. May not mean anything necessarily. But may mean that the SSJ2 existing gap is way more notable, although kid Gohan is overall noticeable above his teen self in base and SSJ as well.

The Daizenshuu also stating Gohan isn't nearly as strong [as before] because he didn't train and couldn't get angry like in the CGs is also somewhat telling to me... That both factors were pushing the gap between teen and kid Gohan... The rusty aspect from not training and the lack of access to that on top boost when he's in SSJ2 which pushed it somewhat beyond its limits.

I see SSJ2 as a 2.5x boost normally, and CGs Gohan getting a 3x one.

CGs

Goku -- 90
Cell (vs Goku) - 100
Gohan - 112.5
Cell (vs Gohan) - 125

Cell (FP) - 187

SSJ2 Gohan - 340
SPC - 310


Boo saga

SSJ Gohan - 100 [88% of his SSJ... Still a noticeable drop]
SSJ2 Gohan - 250 [less than 75% of his old SSJ2 power... Now a drastic drop]

Vs Dabura, it's possible he was in SSJ and Dabura was as strong as the Cell who Goku fought and who couldn't land a hit on Gohan, hence both at 100. If Gohan were a SSJ2, then both would be at 250... Way above Perfect Cell, but way below the likes of SPC/SSJ2 pre Majin Vegeta/SSJ2 kid Gohan...

... If Gohan were in a transient state between SSJ and SSJ2, accessing part of the ssj2's power but not all of it, midway there, which I've ultimately gone with, then Dabura happens to be exactly = FP Perfect Cell and Gohan as a half, midway there, SSJ2 is struggling and getting in the hopes vs an opponent he humiliated previously. Which I think, narratively, serves the bigger purpose. That is, to show how Gohan has fallen behind with how he's struggling with a Cell's level opponent and Goku and Vegeta's overall perception of a Cell's level opponent... In which case:

"Halfway there, not yet" SSJ2 teen Gohan - 180
Dabura - 187

And the Goku's "get as angry as you did vs Cell" could be an encouragement to Gohan tap into his full SSJ2 power shown in the Budokai... But imo more like an encouragement for him to go even beyond it, as the way Goku talks about such power, while Gohan's state in the CGs was deemed as not impressive, may imply Gohan using the intense rage to, again, break beyond the ssj2's limit and possibly achieve a power as high as his CGs self. Maybe above, but I think it works well with it allowing him to be as strong as he once was in his peak... Someone may wonder why teen Gohan with the anger on top boost would be as strong as his CGs self when his overall base power has fallen, but rage boosts in general are unpredictable, and it's possible that as a teen, the rage catalyst, with Gohan being overall more mature, can have a bigger effect than when he was a kid... As in, he's already becoming more acquainted with his potential.

Hypothetical enraged teen Gohan - 340

SSJ2 Goku and Majin Vegeta - 380

 

[Hector]

He's drawn as a Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan Majin Vegeta is clearly implied to be his superior.

Were you here when I analyzed my SSJ1.5 theory?

 

[Power Level Guy]

Were you here when I analyzed my SSJ1.5 theory?

I think so, it’s wrong though. He’s definitely like 100% a Super Saiyan. I researched this thing like crazy, I finally got the answer.

 

[Power Level Guy]

I think the gap between teen and kid Gohan exists in all states, but is more pronounced, noticeable, apparent as SSJ2.

I agree, I apply a 1.2x amp on top of his boost.

SSJ Gohan - 100 [88% of his SSJ... Still a noticeable drop]
SSJ2 Gohan - 250 [less than 75% of his old SSJ2 power... Now a drastic drop]

This is good.

Vs Dabura, it's possible he was in SSJ and Dabura was as strong as the Cell who Goku fought and who couldn't land a hit on Gohan, hence both at 100.

Yep, perfect.

I've ultimately gone with, then Dabura happens to be exactly = FP Perfect Cell

Can’t be true since we know FP Pc would easily defeat Ssj Kid Gohan let alone Ssj Teen Gohan.

Halfway there, not yet" SSJ2 teen Gohan - 180

There’s no such things. He’s either Super Saiyan or beyond. He’s not beyond against Dabura.

Someone may wonder why teen Gohan with the anger on top boost would be as strong as his CGs self when his overall base power has fallen, but rage boosts in general are unpredictable, and it's possible that as a teen, the rage catalyst, with Gohan being overall more mature, can have a bigger effect than when he was a kid... As in, he's already becoming more acquainted with his potential.

Yes Teen Gohan > Kid Gohan is dormant potential. Gohan is full grown, rusty, but he’s a man now.

Gohans rage allows him to tap into his dormant ability. That’s how he can surpass Kid Gohan.

Hypothetical enraged teen Gohan - 340

Gohan thinks his rage brings him back to CG level, Goku thinks it brings him beyond. Goku is right here.

 

[Power Level Guy]

We have to check the translation, but Steve Simmons implies something a bit different. "Now then, let me increase my speed like I really mean it!" I'd like to look at the translation again with Chat GPT if you don't mind @Dagon

So here's what I think.

Everyone is miscounting Gohan for his age, his ki is legit. I still think he's a bit stronger than Cell, he just doesn't have the will to fight.

The only reason he's getting easily defeated is because he doesn't want to fight. If he got his head in the game, he could easily contend with Cell.

Cell bear hugging Gohan is the ultimate sign of Gohan's defeat, once again, not because of Gohan's ki, but because of his lack of courage and lack of will to fight.

Goku counts on his rage because of this, not necessarily knowing Cell has more in the tank, but everyone understand that Cell will win despite similar levels of pwoer.

 

[Dagon]

@Power Level Guy Tomorrow.

 

[Power Level Guy]

So to reiterate my stance. There's a lot of weirdness going on here, because on one hand, everyone is acknowledging Gohan is superior to Gohan. And it's not by a small margin either.

Think about how much stronger Gohan is over Goku. The anime leads one to believe that Goku at full strength has any real chance. He doesn't, he's completely overwhelmed and is bordering becoming a Zarbon vs Vegeta scenario. Cell is just simply too fast for Goku.

This Cell, who is too fast for Goku, cannot land a hit on Gohan. Zarbon cannot land a hit on Vegeta.

But also keep in mind, this is like bare minimum Gohan here. Doesn't really want to fight, head's not in the game, I don't think Gohan avoiding Cell here is all that his ability is capable of doing.

But Gohan's advantage is substantial enough that even with his diminished spirit, he can easily avoid someone so much slower than himself.

So, a "not-operating at full capacity" Gohan still manages to make a fool of Cell.

Cell speeds up, and probably powers up as well to hit Gohan with ability rivaling Gohan.

They are making a big hoopla because it's Gohan and are not thinking logically here. They are all emotional. That's why Gohan sustains no damage.

Gohan returns, tells Cell about anger and so on.

Post Bear Hug Gohan may have lost some power, but I think he's just defeated mentally.

He can't fight and the fight, despite being equals more or less, is about Gohan's anger coming out.

Gohan is going to need to be overwhelmingly superior to win, because he doesn't have the drive to fight.

 

[Dagon]

Spoiler: DBZ Episode 181

Spoiler: Jump Anime Comics

Cell senses Gohan's power: 孫悟空の言ったこともまんざらハッタリばかりではなかったらしい……… Romanization: Son Gokū no itta koto mo manzara hattari bakari de wa nakattarashii………

Translation: "It seems that what Son Goku said was not all just bluff after all………"

だが このわたしに勝てるというのはいささか言いすぎだったようだな...... Romanization: Daga kono watashi ni kateru to iu no wa isasaka iisugita yō da na......

Translation: "But to say that he could defeat me seems to have been somewhat of an overstatement......"

Cell talks about speed: 「すばしっこいチビだ!フフフッ･･････ではスピードだけは本気になってやるか! Romanization: 'Subashikkoi chibi da! Fufufu…… de wa supīdo dake wa honki ni natte yaru ka!

Translation: "What a nimble little runt! Hahaha...... Shall I get serious with just my speed then!"

"My" is inferred as otherwise it's "the speed" or "just speed."

Spoiler: Manga

Cell talks about speed: すばしこいチビだ･･･!!! Romanization: Subashikoi chibi da...!!!

Translation: "Such a nimble little runt...!!!"

スピードだけは 本気になってやるか Romanization: Supīdo dake wa honki ni natte yaru ka

Translation: "Shall I get serious with just my speed then?"

Same inference as before. "Just/only my speed," and "just/only speed" work equally.

Looks like "true speed" is a Herms-ism. It's "serious speed."