Is it possible we haxed ODB numbers too much? (Part 2 - KP Saga)

[Hector]

The concept of changing your ki level was first introduced when Young King Piccolo powered up. Before that, all the statements about not using full power referred to effort. Therefore, I see no reason not to treat Old Piccolo's statement like that. When he tanked Goku's KHH, he was at full power ki wise. That's why, when he gets young, the reader is supposed to believe he walks around at full power, until the big revelation comes: in his young state, he has one more trick up his sleeve.

For the reasons above, I think these gaps are better.

Goku (pre water) - 100
Old Piccolo (suppressed effort) - 120
Old Piccolo (full power) - 300
Young Piccolo (initial) - 450
FP Young Piccolo/Goku (post water) - 600

 

[Power Level Guy]

Therefore, I see no reason not to treat Old Piccolo's statement like that. When he tanked Goku's KHH, he was at full power ki wise.

When King Piccolo uses his full power, we know his life is shortened. So we know 100% he was not at full power when he took on the Kamehameha.

We also know King Piccolo needs to do a full blown power-up to access his full power.

This is blatant bias. This is a blatant nerf job. This is blatant cope because "numbers too big and scary"

 

[Hector]

When King Piccolo uses his full power, we know his life is shortened. So we know 100% he was not at full power when he took on the Kamehameha.

He was at the maximum power his old body could handle. If he did the same power up as Young Piccolo, he'd probably die immediately.

 

[Power Level Guy]

He was at the maximum power his old body could handle. If he did the same power up as Young Piccolo, he'd probably die immediately.

Sure, but that doesn’t mean he’s anywhere near his full capabilities, so he’s still less than half as stated.

You can’t possibly think this take is actually likely, right? Are you making the story or is the author, come on now.

 

[Hector]

Sure, but that doesn’t mean he’s anywhere near his full capabilities, so he’s still less than half as stated.

You can’t possibly think this take is actually likely, right? Are you making the story or is the author, come on now.

Effort wise- less than half
Ki wise - the max he could handle, let's say 80%
How's that?

 

[GSM123]

Or maybe his effort was less than half of 80%

This is a bit of mind fuck though. Let’s just keep it as it is. Piccolo is at 40% and that’s that.

 

[Animelover5487]

Less than half means exactly that, less than half power.

Toriyama is a simple man who regularly forgets what he writes and contradicts himself, he isn't thinking about all these complIcated headcanons.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Less than half means exactly that, less than half power.

Toriyama is a simple man who regularly forgets what he writes and contradicts himself, he isn't thinking about all these complIcated headcanons.

Exactly.

Hector is coping hard right now. That wind chop will get in your head, people get desperate for any way around it. I totally get it, I've been there lol

@SSJ2 had me on the ropes with that one for 6 months! I was hating and desperate to find any way out. But in the end, the wind chop bloat remains supreme.

 

[GSM123]

I’m still having second thoughts on the wind chop. I just wrote a big post nerding wind chop, then erased it, wrote a bloated wind chop post, then erased it too. This is more nuanced than people might think.

The key here is probably that dodge. If Roshi were anywhere near FP, he’d have vanished on sight. Or is this an inconsistence? I mean Roshi is 2x Yamcha here either way.

Saying Roshi is using the lowest effort possible and thus isn’t at FP doesn’t make sense. It’s a freaking wind chop! He’s clearly going for the overkill. If he were saving energy, he’d have just punched Yamcha. The wind chop truly feels like a glimpse of his FP IMO - Kuririn is very consistent in how he stands no chance. Isn’t the simplest narrative the easiest? He can’t wind chop Yamcha, so he fears the man who can.

 

[Power Level Guy]

I’m still having second thoughts on the wind chop. I just wrote a big post nerding wind chop, then erased it, wrote a bloated wind chop post, then erased it too. This is more nuanced than people might think.

I hear you brother, I was in major turmoil for half a year over this! I totally get it! The cope runs hard on this one for sure.

The key here is probably that dodge. If Roshi were anywhere near FP, he’d have vanished on sight. Or is this an inconsistence? I mean Roshi is 2x Yamcha here either way.

From what I've seen, "Can't see" is always at least 1.5x, but 1.5x and above aren't always "Can't see".

Since I've dropped the Wind Chop Chronicles, it's been nothing but crickets out here. There's just no rebuttal here and it bloats the hell out of everything. And as you said, what are we fighting for here? To make it go from 3x to what? 2x? It's still an enormous gap.

Put it this way, I can make a much easier argument for it being a 3x gap than it being a 2x gap.

You have to deal with the failed wind chop no matter what and no one has been able to deal with it at all.

The biggest question you have to tackle here is "Why do you want to lower it so bad?" The reason answer is that you are biased towards nerfing. That was the hard truth I had to come to, I prefer minimalistic gaps or the numbers feel too big too me. But that's not a real reason to nerf something.

Saying Roshi is using the lowest effort possible and thus isn’t at FP doesn’t make sense. It’s a freaking wind chop! He’s clearly going for the overkill. If he were saving energy, he’d have just punched Yamcha. The wind chop truly feels like a glimpse of his FP IMO - Kuririn is very consistent in how he stands no chance. Isn’t the simplest narrative the easiest? He can’t wind chop Yamcha, so he fears the man who can.

Narratively this one doesn't seem to hold up. The speed-up sequence doesn't make sense if Jackie had already showcased a greatly superior power earlier. Jackie's speed up on Krillin is narratively suggested to be a tremendous upgrade in power and speed.

 

[GSM123]

From what I've seen, "Can't see" is always at least 1.5x, but 1.5x and above aren't always "Can't see".

Since I've dropped the Wind Chop Chronicles, it's been nothing but crickets out here. There's just no rebuttal here and it bloats the hell out of everything. And as you said, what are we fighting for here? To make it go from 3x to what? 2x? It's still an enormous gap.

Put it this way, I can make a much easier argument for it being a 3x gap than it being a 2x gap.

You have to deal with the failed wind chop no matter what and no one has been able to deal with it at all.

The biggest question you have to tackle here is "Why do you want to lower it so bad?" The reason answer is that you are biased towards nerfing. That was the hard truth I had to come to, I prefer minimalistic gaps or the numbers feel too big too me. But that's not a real reason to nerf something.

Jackie is 2-3x Yamcha, no doubt about it. My question aways was... Why do we think he was suppressed? You even admit the speed feats are somewhat inconsistent.

Narratively this one doesn't seem to hold up. The speed-up sequence doesn't make sense if Jackie had already showcased a greatly superior power earlier. Jackie's speed up on Krillin is narratively suggested to be a tremendous upgrade in power and speed.

It does, in the context of this specific fight. It looked like Kuririn could hold his own until Jackie got real.

 

[GSM123]

Literally the same thing Yamcha says about Goku vs Chappa. Why is one an admission of inferiority but not the other? Why do we think Goku and Kuririn can one shot Jackie?

 

[Power Level Guy]

Jackie is 2-3x Yamcha, no doubt about it. My question aways was... Why do we think he was suppressed? You even admit the speed feats are somewhat inconsistent.

This is an established theme that occurs in Dragon Ball. People showcase greater and greater examples of their power culminating in them finally unleashing their full power.

What you are suggesting would be a completely novel concept. Are you saying this is the only time this occurs in the history of all Dragon Ball, all continuations including and all movies and filler?

It does, in the context of this specific fight. It looked like Kuririn could hold his own until Jackie got real.

Krillin wasn't even capable of seeing the punch, where does that suggest he could keep up?

Literally the same thing Yamcha says about Goku vs Chappa. Why is one an admission of inferiority but not the other? Why do we think Goku and Kuririn can one shot Jackie?

Are Krillin and Goku incapable of defeating Yamcha that easily?

 

[GSM123]

This is an established theme that occurs in Dragon Ball. People showcase greater and greater examples of their power culminating in them finally unleashing their full power.

What you are suggesting would be a completely novel concept. Are you saying this is the only time this occurs in the history of all Dragon Ball, all continuations including and all movies and filler?

No? This happens a lot. It's just that we never overanalyze other fights like this.

Did Freeza not use less power on Goku initially? And Trunks uses less power on Goku than he used to kill Freeza? Goku uses less than 50% to warm up vs Cell (And Cell arguably used less power than vs Trunks).

And this one isn't even about him using less power. It's about him consistently using the same power.

Krillin wasn't even capable of seeing the punch, where does that suggest he could keep up?

When he pressed him back, before the speed up.

Are Krillin and Goku incapable of defeating Yamcha that easily?

With a wind chop? Of course not. Remember this is tailess Goku.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Did Freeza not use less power on Goku initially? And Trunks uses less power on Goku than he used to kill Freeza? Goku uses less than 50% to warm up vs Cell (And Cell arguably used less power than vs Trunks).

This isn’t arguing in good faith.

Look at what you are arguing for with Roshi and then compare it with those examples. They should be wildly different.

 

[GSM123]

This isn’t arguing in good faith.

Look at what you are arguing for with Roshi and then compare it with those examples. They should be wildly different.

Roshi got serious to finish Yamcha. He wasn’t serious vs Kuririn pre speed up. That’s all.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Roshi got serious to finish Yamcha. He wasn’t serious vs Kuririn pre speed up. That’s all.

This would be the first time this has ever happened in all of the history of DB. You good with that claim?

 

[Animelover5487]

Alternatively, Roshi's wind chop could have been a ki attack and as we know nobody in this part of the story can surpress their ki so wind chop would be Roshi's full power.

 

[Hector]

Alternatively, Roshi's wind chop could have been a ki attack and as we know nobody in this part of the story can surpress their ki so wind chop would be Roshi's full power.

I agree.

 

[Power Level Guy]

This a lot of logic twisting just to nerf one of the greatest feats of all time.

And it lines up with the other feats. Goku finger tapped the Strongman, that’s likely something like a 10x feat itself.

Roshi’s 3x Wind Chop is perfectly in line with the other feats.