Is Oob weaker than we thought?

[GSM123]

EoZ Oob is weaker than we thought?

Back in the Boo Arc, Goku wished for Majin Boo to be revived as a good guy so he could fight him years later:

Chapter: 516 (DBZ 322), P11.2-3
Context: after Polunga restores Goku’s stamina and he’s about to finish Boo off with the Genki-Dama
Goku: “…You’re amazin’. You hung in there really well all on your own…This time, be reborn as a good guy…I wanna fight you one-on-one…I’ll be waitin'…And I’ll have gotten much, much better…See ya later!”

After the timeskip, Goku is very eager to fight the revived Boo at the Budokai, believing him to be suppressing his power and thinking he might have to use all of his power to fight him:

Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P2.4-8
Context: Vegeta asks Goku why he’s entering the next Tenkaichi Budoukai
Goku: “Because someone’s entering who seems incredible! I’ve had my eye on him for awhile, and he came to the tournament grounds this morning.”
Vegeta: “What!? …I don’t feel any ki that strong…”
Goku: “He’s completely suppressing his ki now. ..But somehow I can tell…that he’s definitely strong…”
Vegeta: “…Hmph, are you joking? There’s no way a guy like that could exist…Don’t tell me he’s an alien!?”
Goku: “Nope, he’s an Earthling.”
Bulma: “Huh!? That’s impossible.”

Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P6.5
Goku: “…But someone besides us and Boo might win.”
Satan: “Hahhahhah, now really! There’s no way that could happen, right?”

Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P10.2
Context: Goku asks Boo to rig the match-ups so he can fight Oob
Goku: “…Sorry, but I wanna fight with him no matter what, in the 1st round when both of us still have 100% of our stamina…”

However, Oob doesn't seem to be up to his expectations when they actually meet... Unlike Goku believed he's not hidding his power, he's flat out unable to tap into it. Goku needs to taunt him in order to release his power.

Spoiler

As we know from Gohan, rage boosts hardly draw anything from one's true power, as the untrained body is unable to handle so much power without gassing out and collapsing. This is confirmed when Oob merely shows enough power to match Base Goku, whose base power albeit debeatable, is nowhere near the level of Pure Boo.

Finally, Goku tells Oob he needs training, and only after Oob's training is complete, they'll be able to have a proper rematch.

Chapter: 519 (DBZ 325), P12.2-5
Context: Oob is surprised by Goku’s Bukujutsu
Goku: “Oh, I see. You still don’t even know how to fly, huh? …I guess there ain’t no helping it. You haven’t had no teacher, and you probably never even considered things like that. Sorry I bad-mouthed you before. Please forgive me. I just wanted to know your true ability. You’re exactly the person I thought you were. As amazin’ as I expected. But you don’t know how to use your power. This is the first time you’ve fought like this, right? I've got it! From now on I'll live with you at your house and teach you!”

Supplementary info:

Guidebooks:

Spoiler

Anime:

Spoiler

Thoughts?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Even if not being able to access Pure Boo's full power, he still ought to be more or less on Good Boo's level at least. The exchange between Goku and Satan of saying "someone other than us or Boo" would suggest Boo getting to the finals wouldn't be guaranteed and assuming the no SSJ rule is still in effect, that means at least Base Goku and Vegeta had reached Mr. Boo's level.

I'd say the statements of Oob not being able to use his Ki properly are more to do with not knowing how to control his Ki in a way to fire Ki blasts or fly. One of the statements you provided even goes against the idea of Goku overestimating Oob's strength.
Chapter: 519 (DBZ 325), P12.2-5
Context: Oob is surprised by Goku’s Bukujutsu
Goku: “Oh, I see. You still don’t even know how to fly, huh? …I guess there ain’t no helping it. You haven’t had no teacher, and you probably never even considered things like that. Sorry I bad-mouthed you before. Please forgive me. I just wanted to know your true ability. You’re exactly the person I thought you were. As amazin’ as I expected. But you don’t know how to use your power. This is the first time you’ve fought like this, right? I've got it! From now on I'll live with you at your house and teach you!”

As far as Goku wanting to go all-out against Oob, that doesn't prove Oob to be far weaker than Pure Boo. If anything, it cements how strong EoZ Goku is. This is backed up by the Daizenshuu, which suggests Oob could become the strongest character in the series if he utilised his full potential.

Uub
Majin Buu’s reincarnation
History:Born in the year Age 774. He entered the Tenkaichi Budoukai for the prize money, and squared off against Goku.
First Appearance: chapter 518
Special Characteristics: Enma Daio arranged for the evil, original Majin Buu to be reincarnated as this human. He looks like a young hick, raised on South Island. Though he’s normally meek, the stupendously powerful Majin Buu is hidden inside him.
Battles: Though he is not yet used to using his own power, perhaps through Goku’s training he will grow into a warrior unlike any before.
Tenkaichi Budoukai: He entered the 28th Tenkaichi Budoukai, where he and Goku abandoned their match. (Daizenshuu 4, p.124)

 

[GSM123]

[mention]Captain Cadaver[/mention]

Even if not being able to access Pure Boo's full power, he still ought to be more or less on Good Boo's level at least. The exchange between Goku and Satan of saying "someone other than us or Boo" would suggest Boo getting to the finals wouldn't be guaranteed and assuming the no SSJ rule is still in effect, that means at least Base Goku and Vegeta had reached Mr. Boo's level.

That was stated before Goku even meet Oob. It was a part of Goku's wishful thinking.

There's no reason to assume the no SSJ rule is still a thing - The point of it died as soon as Gohan turned into one in front of everyone against Kibito. And it's important to note Goku wasn't even notified of such rule 10 years ago.

I'd say the statements of Oob not being able to use his Ki properly are more to do with not knowing how to control his Ki in a way to fire Ki blasts or fly. One of the statements you provided even goes against the idea of Goku overestimating Oob's strength.

Chapter: 519 (DBZ 325), P12.2-5
Context: Oob is surprised by Goku’s Bukujutsu
Goku: “Oh, I see. You still don’t even know how to fly, huh? …I guess there ain’t no helping it. You haven’t had no teacher, and you probably never even considered things like that. Sorry I bad-mouthed you before. Please forgive me. I just wanted to know your true ability. You’re exactly the person I thought you were. As amazin’ as I expected. But you don’t know how to use your power. This is the first time you’ve fought like this, right? I've got it! From now on I'll live with you at your house and teach you!”

Ki control is fundamental in order to use power though. Take a look at Freeza's case: He couldn't access his full power without putting a huge stress in his body and collapsing under 5 minutes. Oob was never shown to put any strain on his body in spite of having lesser Ki control than Freeza, so it's illogical to assume he also tapped into his full power.

In that very statement, Goku proceeds to say Oob needs training after complementing him. He's exactly the person Goku expected in relation to being Boo's reincarnation, not in relation to his power. Goku's shock upon meeting him shows he's not as strong as he expected.

As far as Goku wanting to go all-out against Oob, that doesn't prove Oob to be far weaker than Pure Boo. If anything, it cements how strong EoZ Goku is. This is backed up by the Daizenshuu, which suggests Oob could become the strongest character in the series if he utilised his full potential.

Uub
Majin Buu’s reincarnation
History:Born in the year Age 774. He entered the Tenkaichi Budoukai for the prize money, and squared off against Goku.
First Appearance: chapter 518
Special Characteristics: Enma Daio arranged for the evil, original Majin Buu to be reincarnated as this human. He looks like a young hick, raised on South Island. Though he’s normally meek, the stupendously powerful Majin Buu is hidden inside him.
Battles: Though he is not yet used to using his own power, perhaps through Goku’s training he will grow into a warrior unlike any before.
Tenkaichi Budoukai: He entered the 28th Tenkaichi Budoukai, where he and Goku abandoned their match. (Daizenshuu 4, p.124)

It doesn't "cement" anything, because it's not implied in the first place. Goku was stated to have taken his body as far as it could go in the Boo Arc, is not noted to have done any special training and is not directly noted to have grown any stronger over the timeskip. The idea that any stronger than before is an assumption borne out of another assumption (That Oob could tap into all of Pure Boo's power) and falls under the idea of Circular Reasoning.

The Daizenshuu bio talks about an hypothetical Oob that has trained with Goku, not the present Oob we saw.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

He's a lot weaker than EoZ Goku (post Super) 2

 

[Captain Cadaver]

That was stated before Goku even meet Oob. It was a part of Goku's wishful thinking.

Of which he later solidifies by saying Oob was as amazing as he'd hoped.

There's no reason to assume the no SSJ rule is still a thing - The point of it died as soon as Gohan turned into one in front of everyone against Kibito.

It only confirmed to the public that Gohan was the Golden Warrior. The only people who seemed to deduce he was also from the Cell Games were Satan and Videl. Gohan's hairstyle and appearance are also different enough from 7 years ago for others not putting 2 and 2 together to be plausible, as opposed to if Goku or Vegeta were to do the exact same thing.

And it's important to note Goku wasn't even notified of such rule 10 years ago.

Whilst a bit of an assumption, I highly doubt he wouldn't have been filled in by Gohan or someone else on such an important detail offscreen at the 25th TB.

Ki control is fundamental in order to use power though. Take a look at Freeza's case: He couldn't access his full power without putting a huge stress in his body and collapsing under 5 minutes. Oob was never shown to put any strain on his body in spite of having lesser Ki control than Freeza, so it's illogical to assume he also tapped into his full power.

The strain of pumping out Ki in correlation to one's experience is something that's highly inconsistent throughout the series. For instance, Piccolo Daimao needs to strain a lot to use his full power and it takes out a chunk of his lifespan, despite his battle power being in the triple digits. Unless you're going to say someone who can injure EoZ Goku is below Piccolo Daimao, I wouldn't cite strain as being defining evidence of Oob's lack of power.

It's also important to remember the nature of Oob's Ki. Boo's Ki is magical by nature, allowing him to be born as a creature with SS3 tier power. Hell, taking Super into account, he even has the potential to utilise God Ki. Regardless of being reborn in a human body, he still has the same potential as before and therefore, his Ki should still be of a different nature to the standard.

In that very statement, Goku proceeds to say Oob needs training after complementing him.

Because he needs to learn how to properly control the power he has.

He's exactly the person Goku expected in relation to being Boo's reincarnation, not in relation to his power.

Him adding "as amazin' as I expected" goes against the latter point entirely.

Goku's shock upon meeting him shows he's not as strong as he expected.

He only became disinterested in continuing the match when it became apparent Oob didn't know how to control his Ki in the manner that he could fly, not that the amount of Ki he could utilise was too low. Him being unable to fly isn't evidence for him lacking the sufficient Ki either, unless we're to entertain the idea of Videl > Oob.

Goku was stated to have taken his body as far as it could go in the Boo Arc, is not noted to have done any special training

That still didn't stop other fighters getting stronger when the plot demands after believing themselves to have hit their limit. Vegeta believed his final Zenkai on Namek was his limit and as evident from the dialogue with Dr. Briefs hadn't utilised the Gravity Chamber during his 1 year on Earth, yet was implied by his actions to be at least on par with Namek Goku, someone who would've stomped his prior self.

Then there's also the humans after the 3 years of training. Whilst that is a whole other can of worms and I know your stance on it, Tenshinhan saying Chaozu wouldn't be able to keep up after mentioning how they both trained would suggest the main human trio at least got somewhat stronger than before, despite what's said about Kaio's training making it so that 3 years of Earth training shouldn't even offer minimal gains afterwards.

Simply put, plot determines power more often than not, and this is another case of it, even without bringing up Super as a massive middle finger to the idea Goku had reached his limit.

The idea that any stronger than before is an assumption borne out of another assumption (That Oob could tap into all of Pure Boo's power) and falls under the idea of Circular Reasoning.

> Goku makes it apparent what kind of benchmark he has for Oob in his mind.
> Goku fights Oob.
> Goku says Oob isn't only who he expected, but "as amazin' as I expected" too.

Not sure how it's circular reasoning when Goku outright confirms his expectations were met.

The Daizenshuu bio talks about an hypothetical Oob that has trained with Goku, not the present Oob we saw.

Which is the same Oob Goku was wanting to go all-out against.

 

[sei'taer]

There's never been anything to suggest that he's as strong as you thought. There's literally no context for Oobs power.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

There's never been anything to suggest that he's as strong as you thought. There's literally no context for Oobs power.

Goku alludes to the idea of Oob being superior to Mr. Boo as a bare minimum estimate in his mind.

Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P6.5
Goku: “…But someone besides us and Boo might win.”
Satan: “Hahhahhah, now really! There’s no way that could happen, right?”

He then confirms Oob's power met his expectations.

Chapter: 519 (DBZ 325), P12.2-5
Context: Oob is surprised by Goku’s Bukujutsu
Goku: “Oh, I see. You still don’t even know how to fly, huh? …I guess there ain’t no helping it. You haven’t had no teacher, and you probably never even considered things like that. Sorry I bad-mouthed you before. Please forgive me. I just wanted to know your true ability. You’re exactly the person I thought you were. As amazin’ as I expected. But you don’t know how to use your power. This is the first time you’ve fought like this, right? I've got it! From now on I'll live with you at your house and teach you!”

Not sure how Goku confirming Oob as as amazing as he expected is anything but confirmation of Oob's power, of which the first statement contextualises.

 

[GSM123]

Of which he later solidifies by saying Oob was as amazing as he'd hoped.

Because he was Boo's reincarnation and had ungodly amounts of latent power inside him.

If you want to take that statement as literally as possible, then you're gonna have to prove Oob can control his Ki properly, because that's part of what Goku expected. Or prove Goku was going all out in spite of not even transforming, because that's what Goku wanted as well. He even clarifies they'll have a proper rematch once Boo's training is complete, showing he didn't take the short Budokai spar as their definitive rematch.

It only confirmed to the public that Gohan was the Golden Warrior. The only people who seemed to deduce he was also from the Cell Games were Satan and Videl. Gohan's hairstyle and appearance are also different enough from 7 years ago for others not putting 2 and 2 together to be plausible, as opposed to if Goku or Vegeta were to do the exact same thing.

Indeed, but it seems unlikely Goku would have held back against someone he waited for so long and expected to be so strong. As Daizenshuu 2 puts it, "Goku waited for him above all else".

Even 10 years ago Vegeta barely bothered with the rule, saying he didn't care about the press and only accepting it because he believed it wouldn't make a difference in the outcome.

The strain of pumping out Ki in correlation to one's experience is something that's highly inconsistent throughout the series. For instance, Piccolo Daimao needs to strain a lot to use his full power and it takes out a chunk of his lifespan, despite his battle power being in the triple digits. Unless you're going to say someone who can injure EoZ Goku is below Piccolo Daimao, I wouldn't cite strain as being defining evidence of Oob's lack of power.

It's also important to remember the nature of Oob's Ki. Boo's Ki is magical by nature, allowing him to be born as a creature with SS3 tier power. Hell, taking Super into account, he even has the potential to utilise God Ki. Regardless of being reborn in a human body, he still has the same potential as before and therefore, his Ki should still be of a different nature to the standard.

Keep in mind Daimao hadn't used his power for centuries and is extremely rusty on how to use his power, to a point where he's fodder to even Kami, whose raw strength is the same as Piccolo's old self.

Whilst I agree that Boo's Ki was of a different nature, it's important to note that Oob is only the same being as Boo spiritually. They might have the same potential but Oob is a human rather than a Majin and has way more limitations on his body, bot physical (As he's made of flesh rather than whatever Boo's made off) and mental (As he lacks the recklessness of Pure Boo and is aware of the consequences of his power).

Because he needs to learn how to properly control the power he has.

Otherwise he won't be able to use it.

Him adding "as amazin' as I expected" goes against the latter point entirely.

Only if you read Goku's statement backwards.

He only became disinterested in continuing the match when it became apparent Oob didn't know how to control his Ki in the manner that he could fly, not that the amount of Ki he could utilise was too low. Him being unable to fly isn't evidence for him lacking the sufficient Ki either, unless we're to entertain the idea of Videl > Oob.

Not really. There isn't anything to indicate a surprise from Goku's part that Oob couldn't keep up anymore to indicate he wanted to take the fight further. The fight only ended because Oob calmed down once he saw Goku fluctuating.

Goku never intended to take the fight seriously - He told Oob after the fight he only wanted to see Oob's ability to be sure he's the one.

In the anime it's further clarified Goku wasn't taking the fight seriously when Vegeta said he wouldn't bother using all of his power in such a puny match. Curiously he also said that about Oob, implying he was nowhere near full power in that match either.

That still didn't stop other fighters getting stronger when the plot demands after believing themselves to have hit their limit. Vegeta believed his final Zenkai on Namek was his limit and as evident from the dialogue with Dr. Briefs hadn't utilised the Gravity Chamber during his 1 year on Earth, yet was implied by his actions to be at least on par with Namek Goku, someone who would've stomped his prior self.

Then there's also the humans after the 3 years of training. Whilst that is a whole other can of worms and I know your stance on it, Tenshinhan saying Chaozu wouldn't be able to keep up after mentioning how they both trained would suggest the main human trio at least got somewhat stronger than before, despite what's said about Kaio's training making it so that 3 years of Earth training shouldn't even offer minimal gains afterwards.

Simply put, plot determines power more often than not, and this is another case of it, even without bringing up Super as a massive middle finger to the idea Goku had reached his limit.

Plot aways determines power, but it doesn't mean we should stop rationalizing and just say "Well, the plot said so" whenever anything happens. Otherwise we might as well stop bothering altogether with this discussion.

Plot determines power through logical means. In Vegeta's case he believed he was at his limits because he was thought to have become a Super Saiyan - the strongest warrior in history, according to legend. He also required special training (A Gravity Chamber) to go further.

Training doesn't mean getting stronger, as per Kami's order for the Z Fighters to hone their skills in their earthbound training. Android Arc Tenshinhan is shown to have honed his Kikoho into the more powerful Shin Kikoho, so their gains aren't limited to power levels. Power is determined by plot, not fan opinions about the plot.

According to Toriyama, he choose the time between the Z because he couldn't see anyone in the cast becoming any stronger:

The key words this time, “God of Destruction Beerus” and “Super Saiyan God”, were suggestions from the scriptwriter, but they were good ideas for presenting a crisis for the main characters, who had grown so strong that they’d reached a point where there was nothing higher.

So the writter himself doesn't think Goku could go further... Doesn't sound like the plot would determine for Goku to be any stronger here. Specially when, you now, his only feat is matching an untrained Oob...

Of course, you can always take Super into account, but given the amount of things they've changed (Such as the last time Goku saw Bulma being before Pan's birth in the original manga), I'd rather wait for DBS to end to see if they won't have a different take on EoZ.

Which is the same Oob Goku was wanting to go all-out against.

In the same match where he didn't even turn into a Super Saiyan.

 

[DannyLaRocca]

I mean dos-int Supers placement of Goku make Uub massively stronger? Given Base Gokus placement in Super.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Because he was Boo's reincarnation and had ungodly amounts of latent power inside him.

If that were his only reason, he'd have no reason to follow up him stating Oob was exactly who he expected.

He even clarifies they'll have a proper rematch once Boo's training is complete, showing he didn't take the short Budokai spar as their definitive rematch.

Because as you said, Oob has ungodly amounts of latent power still left to draw out and needs to control his Ki properly to use it well. If Goku has to limit himself to not flying or shooting Ki blasts to make things fair, it's not really the rematch he hoped for regardless of how strong Oob is.

Keep in mind Daimao hadn't used his power for centuries and is extremely rusty on how to use his power

Whilst that's true, he at least had some experience using it, compared to Oob having never used such power in his life. Also, I doubt that rustiness would be a major factor after having his youth restored.

to a point where he's fodder to even Kami, whose raw strength is the same as Piccolo's old self.

Or Kami simply got stronger through give or take 3 centuries of training, given how the whole point of Daimao restoring his youth was to be at his peak once more which he never said wasn't met.

Whilst I agree that Boo's Ki was of a different nature, it's important to note that Oob is only the same being as Boo spiritually. They might have the same potential but Oob is a human rather than a Majin and has way more limitations on his body, bot physical (As he's made of flesh rather than whatever Boo's made off) and mental (As he lacks the recklessness of Pure Boo and is aware of the consequences of his power).

That is true and I'd say this is probably the strongest argument in favour of Oob not drawing out all his power.
Still, even if Oob were weaker than Pure Boo, I would still cite Mr. Boo as the minimum for his power, at at absolute minimum far above Boo Arc base tier with what we're told, which I'll expand on a little later down the line.

Not really. There isn't anything to indicate a surprise from Goku's part that Oob couldn't keep up anymore to indicate he wanted to take the fight further.

Except, you know, Goku expressing surprise that Oob couldn't fly.

Goku never intended to take the fight seriously - He told Oob after the fight he only wanted to see Oob's ability to be sure he's the one.

Isn't that a direct contradiction of your previous point regarding the No SSJ Rule counter though?

In the anime it's further clarified Goku wasn't taking the fight seriously when Vegeta said he wouldn't bother using all of his power in such a puny match. Curiously he also said that about Oob, implying he was nowhere near full power in that match either.

Considering how strong Pure Boo is in the anime, I'd say using examples from there is pretty difficult to quantify in relation to the manga. Anime-wise, Oob could be as strong as SS3 Gotenks and still be a disappointment compared to his past self.

Plot aways determines power, but it doesn't mean we should stop rationalizing and just say "Well, the plot said so" whenever anything happens. Otherwise we might as well stop bothering altogether with this discussion.

Indeed, though in this example, the implications are there to be taken either way.

[quoteTraining doesn't mean getting stronger, as per Kami's order for the Z Fighters to hone their skills in their earthbound training. Android Arc Tenshinhan is shown to have honed his Kikoho into the more powerful Shin Kikoho, so their gains aren't limited to power levels. Power is determined by plot, not fan opinions about the plot.[/quote]Indeed, though it is still heavily implied that Goku made significant gains. He tells Goten that Boo would only beat him because he didn't continue training.

Chapter: 519 (DBZ 325), P1.3
Context: after Goten and Boo are matched up in the tournament's first round
Goten: “Th-that can’t be! How can I go up against Boo right in the first round?!”
Goku: “It’s only a problem because you keep slacking off in your training.”

Even taking the SSJ rule as void, that would still suggest a trained SSJ Goten (and by extension, EoZ SSJ Goku) could beat Mr. Boo. I highly doubt Goku was factoring in SS2 with the question of Goten being able to achieve it easily being far more of a variable and even if he did, that would still place EoZ Goku significantly above his Boo Arc self.

According to Toriyama, he choose the time between the Z because he couldn't see anyone in the cast becoming any stronger:

Of course, you can always take Super into account

Considering the statement was in context to the franchise's return that would become Super, in which even the humans got infinitely stronger than before, I don't see how you couldn't.

I mean dos-int Supers placement of Goku make Uub massively stronger? Given Base Gokus placement in Super.

If taking Super into account, yes. The possibility of Goku getting nerfed is there, though I find it doubtful given the trajectory of the franchise and the recent reveal of Boo's God Ki.

 

[ahill1]

"Rage boosts hardly draw anything from one's true power"

But that doesn't mean Oob couldn't have wielded Kid Boo's power level when enraged. There's nothing to say that Kid Boo is the peak of Oob's capabilities merely because the latter is his reincarnation. Besides the guidebook entry revealing Oob could become a warrior unlike any, Piccolo Junior went far beyond Piccolo Daimao's level despite being treated in the 23rd Budokai as his reincarnation.

 

[GSM123]

[mention]Captain Cadaver[/mention]

If that were his only reason, he'd have no reason to follow up him stating Oob was exactly who he expected.

And if he had more reasons than this one, he wouldn’t think Oob needs training.

Such conclusion is only achievable when you take Goku’s statement and strip it of it’s context, taking Goku’s “You’re exactly who I expected” even though he can’t even control his power like Goku initially expected.

Or Kami simply got stronger through give or take 3 centuries of training, given how the whole point of Daimao restoring his youth was to be at his peak once more which he never said wasn't met.

Impossible when Piccolo Jr called Kami a slacker.

Except, you know, Goku expressing surprise that Oob couldn't fly.

Spoiler

He isn’t surprised.

Isn't that a direct contradiction of your previous point regarding the No SSJ Rule counter though?

Not really, I just worded myself poorly. Goku wasn’t intending to take the fight seriously after he saw Oob couldn’t control his power, thus the “I just had to see you cut loose”. Beforehand he clearly intended to go all out in that match.

]Indeed, though it is still heavily implied that Goku made significant gains. He tells Goten that Boo would only beat him because he didn't continue training.

Chapter: 519 (DBZ 325), P1.3
Context: after Goten and Boo are matched up in the tournament's first round
Goten: “Th-that can’t be! How can I go up against Boo right in the first round?!”
Goku: “It’s only a problem because you keep slacking off in your training.”

Even taking the SSJ rule as void, that would still suggest a trained SSJ Goten (and by extension, EoZ SSJ Goku) could beat Mr. Boo. I highly doubt Goku was factoring in SS2 with the question of Goten being able to achieve it easily being far more of a variable and even if he did, that would still place EoZ Goku significantly above his Boo Arc self.

Keep in mind Goten is an hybrid whose potential is above that of even Gohan (As he’s shown to rival his older brother in spite of a 10 years gap and little to no training), so it’s possible Goten was merely stronger than Goku in equal forms, just like Gohan was above Goku in the Cell Games.

Considering the statement was in context to the franchise's return that would become Super, in which even the humans got infinitely stronger than before, I don't see how you couldn't.

Keep in mind this was around the time of the movie’s release, way before the series was even announced.


[mention]ahill1[/mention] yes, but merely matching Base Goku doesn’t really help to prove Oob reached Boo’s level.

Piccolo Jr is a Warrior Type Namekian whilst his father is a Dragon Clan one, what means he’s got more potential than his father even though they’re the same entity. Kami said Ma Jr is even stronger than the original as well.

Oob’s case is the exact opposite of Piccolo’s; he’s Majin Boo reborn in a fragile body of a weaker race and is going to struggle more to live up to Boo’s potential.

 

[theallpowerfulpuipui]

Doesn't the anime imply a Goku, who continued training, was impressed with Uub?

I mean, you weren't impressed with Uub, I wasn't impressed with Uub, Kid Buu 55 wasn't impressed with Uub, GT was only impressed for one saga, but Goku and Vegeta were.

The implication is that 'omg he's as powerful as the strongest buu' but our doubts have been vindicated over DBZ's 'logic.'

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

Incorrect, brutha.

Oob has Kid Boo's God Power.

 

[theallpowerfulpuipui]

Incorrect, brutha.

Oob has Kid Boo's God Power.

Uub a week after GT

 

[Captain Cadaver]

And if he had more reasons than this one, he wouldn’t think Oob needs training.

Such conclusion is only achievable when you take Goku’s statement and strip it of it’s context, taking Goku’s “You’re exactly who I expected” even though he can’t even control his power like Goku initially expected.

Even if he could control his power, he was still only a match for Base Goku as you said. Regardless of whether this shows Base Goku as being Pure Boo tier or Oob being vastly weaker than Pure Boo, this isn't the all-out rematch Goku wanted.

Impossible when Piccolo Jr called Kami a slacker.

If he trains for a century or two and surpasses Daimao, then has his power remain static by slacking off, things still remain consistent. Also, if Piccolo surpassed him in just 3 years of training, I'd call even regular training to reach his current level "slacking off".

He isn’t surprised.

He still wasn't entirely expecting Oob to be unable to fly.

Spoiler

Goku wasn’t intending to take the fight seriously after he saw Oob couldn’t control his power, thus the “I just had to see you cut loose”. Beforehand he clearly intended to go all out in that match.

Indeed. Oob couldn't control his power properly, that's a given. Whether or not that's the same as being unable to draw out his previous power is another matter, however.

Keep in mind Goten is an hybrid whose potential is above that of even Gohan (As he’s shown to rival his older brother in spite of a 10 years gap and little to no training), so it’s possible Goten was merely stronger than Goku in equal forms, just like Gohan was above Goku in the Cell Games.

Whilst that could be considered, I imagine Goku would've reiterated such if he were indeed not capable of doing the same.

Keep in mind this was around the time of the movie’s release, way before the series was even announced.

Toriyama still intended it as a way to continue the franchise, regardless of whether or not his vision was to the same scale of milking as what we got. With his current self backtracking on a lot he said around the time, I'd take him stating the Boo Arc is where most of the cast were at their peak as seriously as SSG Goku being 60% of Beerus' power.

Even with the statement, take into account he said "most" not "all" and used Kuririn and Bulma as examples to contextualise it. Goku, Vegeta and arguably Goten and Trunks could all be far stronger than their Boo Arc selves and still be exceptions compared to the majority.

 

[GSM123]

Even if he could control his power, he was still only a match for Base Goku as you said. Regardless of whether this shows Base Goku as being Pure Boo tier or Oob being vastly weaker than Pure Boo, this isn't the all-out rematch Goku wanted.

If he isn't the all-out rematch Goku wanted, then can we agree we shouldn't take Goku's "You're as amazing as I expected?" so literally? He did expect to have the proper rematch in the Budokai (Unless you take into account the anime statements), after all.

If he trains for a century or two and surpasses Daimao, then has his power remain static by slacking off, things still remain consistent. Also, if Piccolo surpassed him in just 3 years of training, I'd call even regular training to reach his current level "slacking off".

He's only expressed to have trained when he was a martial artist and before becoming a God, though.

He still wasn't entirely expecting Oob to be unable to fly.
[+] Spoiler

Still, not the reason Goku cut the fight short. He just makes note of it without much of a reaction and doesn't even imply it's the reason he's ending the fight

Whilst that could be considered, I imagine Goku would've reiterated such if he were indeed not capable of doing the same.

But he is capable of doing that. Just not with lower forms like Goten can.

Toriyama still intended it as a way to continue the franchise, regardless of whether or not his vision was to the same scale of milking as what we got. With his current self backtracking on a lot he said around the time, I'd take him stating the Boo Arc is where most of the cast were at their peak as seriously as SSG Goku being 60% of Beerus' power.

Even with the statement, take into account he said "most" not "all" and used Kuririn and Bulma as examples to contextualise it. Goku, Vegeta and arguably Goten and Trunks could all be far stronger than their Boo Arc selves and still be exceptions compared to the majority.

He didn't exactly go back on that statement though. Toei shenanigans aside, Goku's improvement derivates from. This was further expanded on the Daizenshuu, where Toriyama established after Namek Goku and co. would get their power ups from new transformations.

He said the main cast, what includes Goku. Of course some where not maxed out, such as Vegeta (Who hadn't even maxed out his SSJ2 by the Boo Arc). This doesn't apply to Goku though, as SSJ3 is expressed both in the manga and in the Daizenshuu to be the pinnacle of a Saiyan's power sans godly methods.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

If he isn't the all-out rematch Goku wanted, then can we agree we shouldn't take Goku's "You're as amazing as I expected?" so literally? He did expect to have the proper rematch in the Budokai (Unless you take into account the anime statements), after all.

Not necessarily. Goku immediately follows it up by saying Oob can't control his power properly so as I've been saying, it would be irrelevant to have the long awaited rematch even if he was as strong as Boo when all that power could fizzle out by a change in Oob's emotions.

He's only expressed to have trained when he was a martial artist and before becoming a God, though.

Yet Piccolo Daimao at no point seems to make note of having not regained his full strength, which was his entirely goal with the Dragon Balls. That said, it makes a lot more sense for Kami to have trained to the point of surpassing Daimao. An assumption? Yes, though a logical one that can easily work in plugging an evident plot hole.

Still, not the reason Goku cut the fight short. He just makes note of it without much of a reaction and doesn't even imply it's the reason he's ending the fight

Considering Oob was being entirely fuelled by rage throughout the match, it's pretty evident that snapping out of his rage would cause his power to plummet, and Oob seemed to lose his bloodlusted mindset as soon as he became shocked at Goku's ability to fly.

Just not with lower forms like Goten can.

Based on?

He didn't exactly go back on that statement though. Toei shenanigans aside, Goku's improvement derivates from.

Even manga-wise, Base Goku's feats, as well as those of characters such as Piccolo, the humans, Gohan, etc. all present them as far above their Boo Arc counterparts.

This was further expanded on the Daizenshuu, where Toriyama established after Namek Goku and co. would get their power ups from new transformations.

Yet plenty of later feats present that characters were able to still make major gains without having to focus on transformations, such as Cell commending Trunks' improvement in power after being knocked back far with a kiai. There's then the whole Trunks VS #18 matter or Base Saiyans VS Shin, but that's a can of worms that's been opened more times than I can count.

This doesn't apply to Goku though, as SSJ3 is expressed both in the manga and in the Daizenshuu to be the pinnacle of a Saiyan's power sans godly methods.

Yet even prior to the God ritual, Goku is presented as far above his Boo Arc self. Anime-wise, Vegeta cites him as the strongest Saiyan and iirc Beerus takes note as Goku having been more impressive than the rest of the group prior to Vegeta's rage boost, which includes Gohan.
Manga-wise, you also have SSJ Goku being prepared to fight Pure Boo through image training, as well as doing things his Boo Arc self would be incapable of like oneshotting Cell. Whilst you can say image training isn't solid evidence, I'd disagree. The whole point of image training is to gauge how a hypothetical fight would go; such as being the go-to method for Goku and Gohan seeing how Kuririn would fare against Lavender, so to say it's irrelevant would be inaccurate.

 

[GSM123]

[mention]Captain Cadaver[/mention]

Not necessarily. Goku immediately follows it up by saying Oob can't control his power properly so as I've been saying, it would be irrelevant to have the long awaited rematch even if he was as strong as Boo when all that power could fizzle out by a change in Oob's emotions.

And the lack of Ki control affects the Ki output, as evidenced by Gohan’s past and Oob merely stalemating Base Goku.

But let me see what you think. Other than the ambiguous “As amazing as I expected” that hasn’t allowed this debate to go anywhere, why do you think Oob can draw out such a high portion of his power without any training whatsoever? Gohan certainly couldn’t.

Yet Piccolo Daimao at no point seems to make note of having not regained his full strength, which was his entirely goal with the Dragon Balls. That said, it makes a lot more sense for Kami to have trained to the point of surpassing Daimao. An assumption? Yes, though a logical one that can easily work in plugging an evident plot hole.

Exactly. Age is the primary factor behind Piccolo’s weakening. He’s expressed to have regained his prime power, unlike Kami.

Don’t think this makes a plot hole if you look at it from the correct angle. Piccolo Daimao the personification of Kami’s evil, and evil in Dragon Ball (And other mythos in general) are shown to constantly rely on brute power rather than effective use of it. So while Piccolo Daimao is the stronger of the two because he actively pursued power he wouldn’t be the most effective of the two in battle, as he inherited the simple-mindedness and doesn’t mind using it properly. He was even beaten by the same Goku who Popo shat on due to his unrefined fighting style, after all.

Considering Oob was being entirely fuelled by rage throughout the match, it's pretty evident that snapping out of his rage would cause his power to plummet, and Oob seemed to lose his bloodlusted mindset as soon as he became shocked at Goku's ability to fly.

IThat’s exactly what I’ve been saying. The fight was cut short by Oob, though it probably wouldn’t have lasted longer either way due to his inability to control his power.

Based on?

Mr Boo outperforming SSJ2 Vegeta against Pure Boo places him in a different league from the SSJ2 level. You could argue Goku has improved his SSJ2 power, but that goes against the point of SSJ3’s existence or at least of him unlocking it.

Even manga-wise, Base Goku's feats, as well as those of characters such as Piccolo, the humans, Gohan, etc. all present them as far above their Boo Arc counterparts.

Base Goku’s only feat is holding his own against a suppressed Hit whose strength it up to debate. Otherwise characters from Z are still brought up by non godly characters.

Yet plenty of later feats present that characters were able to still make major gains without having to focus on transformations, such as Cell commending Trunks' improvement in power after being knocked back far with a kiai. There's then the whole Trunks VS #18 matter or Base Saiyans VS Shin, but that's a can of worms that's been opened more times than I can count.

If you look at the context, Trunks had just mentioned he killed the Androids before blasting Cell. All he did was Kiai him, what doesn’t even require Trunks to use a significant part of his power.

Yet even prior to the God ritual, Goku is presented as far above his Boo Arc self. Anime-wise, Vegeta cites him as the strongest Saiyan and iirc Beerus takes note as Goku having been more impressive than the rest of the group prior to Vegeta's rage boost, which includes Gohan.
Manga-wise, you also have SSJ Goku being prepared to fight Pure Boo through image training, as well as doing things his Boo Arc self would be incapable of like oneshotting Cell. Whilst you can say image training isn't solid evidence, I'd disagree. The whole point of image training is to gauge how a hypothetical fight would go; such as being the go-to method for Goku and Gohan seeing how Kuririn would fare against Lavender, so to say it's irrelevant would be inaccurate.

That doesn’t require Goku to be stronger, as the anime also portrays Goku and Pure Boo as the strongest warriors even before they go all out.

While on it’s own it’s a very solid piece of evidence, it would raise the question of why Goku left the Rosat earlier and told Gohan they were peaked if they could at least grow closer to Cell’s power. It’s still image training as opposed to physical training nonetheless and Goku can picture Boo as strong as he wants in order for him to train.

Plus SSJ2 Goku rivaled a suppressed SSJ2 Trunks and only said he surpassed Cell Games Gohan as opposed to comparing him to Majin Boo, what casts a doubt on the accurateness of the image training.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

But let me see what you think. Other than the ambiguous “As amazing as I expected” that hasn’t allowed this debate to go anywhere, why do you think Oob can draw out such a high portion of his power without any training whatsoever? Gohan certainly couldn’t.

The meta answer would be PIS. Using Gohan as a comparison, let's not forget Gohan's first rage boost eclipsed all later ones (at least from a multiplier perspective), despite this being at the time where he had the least control over his power.

IThat’s exactly what I’ve been saying. The fight was cut short by Oob, though it probably wouldn’t have lasted longer either way due to his inability to control his power.

Indeed, though that's a different matter from arguing Oob couldn't draw out Pure Boo's full power as the primary reason as you were suggesting.

Mr Boo outperforming SSJ2 Vegeta against Pure Boo places him in a different league from the SSJ2 level. You could argue Goku has improved his SSJ2 power, but that goes against the point of SSJ3’s existence or at least of him unlocking it.

I still don't see how this alone would go against the idea of Goku making such gains as to reach such a threshold either in base or as a SSJ/SS2.

Base Goku’s only feat is holding his own against a suppressed Hit whose strength it up to debate. Otherwise characters from Z are still brought up by non godly characters.

He also took a hit from Jiren intended for his UI self and got up not long afterwards.
Even ruling that off as PIS, I'd say the Hit example does well to define his level. It would be pointless for Whis to refer to "less than 10%" for the SSB Vegeta Hit stomped if his power was in the range of say 1% or lower, which provides a good benchmark for how strong Base and SSJ Goku are.

The only Z characters that still gets placed on a pedestal are Pure Boo and Dai Kaioshin, the former being through a statement that would imply something as dumb as Boo > Zamasu (or at bare minimum, Hit) and the latter through a power he had long before Boo's rampage.

If you look at the context, Trunks had just mentioned he killed the Androids before blasting Cell. All he did was Kiai him, what doesn’t even require Trunks to use a significant part of his power.

That kiai also sent Cell flying back so far he exited the city, hardly what I'd expect of someone far below Cell's level.

That doesn’t require Goku to be stronger, as the anime also portrays Goku and Pure Boo as the strongest warriors even before they go all out.

The Super manga doesn't seem to follow the anime's continuity, however, aside from minor artistic elements such as Namekians having five fingers, such as Ultimate not seeming to be a form.

While on it’s own it’s a very solid piece of evidence, it would raise the question of why Goku left the Rosat earlier and told Gohan they were peaked if they could at least grow closer to Cell’s power.

The Boo Arc alone debunks the idea that his Cell Games self was the peak of Goku's power, not to mention he also raised the point that it was important to rest.

It’s still image training as opposed to physical training nonetheless and Goku can picture Boo as strong as he wants in order for him to train.

If he was imagining Boo as any weaker than his actual self, it'd defeat the whole purpose of image training.

Plus SSJ2 Goku rivaled a suppressed SSJ2 Trunks and only said he surpassed Cell Games Gohan as opposed to comparing him to Majin Boo,

He said that Trunks was far stronger than that Gohan, which is the only real benchmark Goku had to use for Trunks as it's the highest power he knew Trunks was aware of. Saying Trunks was far stronger than someone he'd never met before would be completely pointless.