Is Oob weaker than we thought?

[GSM123]

[mention]Captain Cadaver[/mention]

The meta answer would be PIS. Using Gohan as a comparison, let's not forget Gohan's first rage boost eclipsed all later ones (at least from a multiplier perspective), despite this being at the time where he had the least control over his power.

Not necessarily. Gohan’s “True” power is supposed to be the 710 reading given the 1 reading comes from introverted/scared baby Gohan and that’s probably the power that was multiplied by 10 when he became an Oozaru (Since 1,307 isn’t tapped naturally and a mere 10 wouldn’t be a threat to Piccolo) so that rage boost would actually be lesser than 2x.

I think Vegeta’s “My Bulma” boost is a better example, but that one is just the biggest PIS ever. Both in size and reasoning.

I still don't see how this alone would go against the idea of Goku making such gains as to reach such a threshold either in base or as a SSJ/SS2.

No reason to waste so much time on the strainful and uncontrollable SSJ3 if he can reach that power with SSJ2.

He also took a hit from Jiren intended for his UI self and got up not long afterwards.
Even ruling that off as PIS, I'd say the Hit example does well to define his level. It would be pointless for Whis to refer to "less than 10%" for the SSB Vegeta Hit stomped if his power was in the range of say 1% or lower, which provides a good benchmark for how strong Base and SSJ Goku are.

The only Z characters that still gets placed on a pedestal are Pure Boo and Dai Kaioshin, the former being through a statement that would imply something as dumb as Boo > Zamasu (or at bare minimum, Hit) and the latter through a power he had long before Boo's rampage.

Definitely PIS, unless one is trying to put Base Goku in a similiar plateau to SSJB or UI Goku. Surviving punches from stronger people was hardly a noteworthy feat in DBZ, let alone Super.

Official multipliers would put SSJ at almost 10% of SSJ3 which is dimensions below SSJG, so if we’re talking about numbers here it’s very unlikely less than 10% means something in the 6-8% range. It’s also worth noting Hit was rather intrigued by Goku, enough that he was doing unusual stuff like chatting, so it’s natural he wouldn’t go as harsh on him as he went on Vegeta, as evidenced by Base Goku actually keeping up with him in spite of his SSJ-like power.

That kiai also sent Cell flying back so far he exited the city, hardly what I'd expect of someone far below Cell's level.

And the far weaker Tenshinhan could pin down the far stronger Semi Cell with the Kikoho. They aren’t immovable objects, specially when they have their guard down or aren’t powered up.

The Super manga doesn't seem to follow the anime's continuity, however, aside from minor artistic elements such as Namekians having five fingers, such as Ultimate not seeming to be a form.

The Super anime does however, which is the continuity you explicitly referred to.

The Boo Arc alone debunks the idea that his Cell Games self was the peak of Goku's power, not to mention he also raised the point that it was important to rest.

Yes, it always is. Goku unlocked SSJ2 and 3 in the Afterlife, what corroborates the Daizenshuu’s claim that their power ups post Nameks came mostly from transformations and fusions.

If he was imagining Boo as any weaker than his actual self, it'd defeat the whole purpose of image training.

And if he were as strong as Boo in Super Saiyan with solo training, it would defeat the purpose of SSJ2, 3, God, fusion, Rosat… Basically the whole story for the sake of a imaginary fight.

He said that Trunks was far stronger than that Gohan, which is the only real benchmark Goku had to use for Trunks as it's the highest power he knew Trunks was aware of. Saying Trunks was far stronger than someone he'd never met before would be completely pointless.

Trunks has fought Babidi and has an idea of the threat Boo could have been, so comparing him to Majin Boo would have been a good compliment.

Freeza also doesn’t compare Caulifla to a SSJ until she actually became one, implying Base Caulifla didn’t have the same strength as SSJ Goku on Namek.
Ch. 37, pg. 10.4-6
Context: Freeza survives Caulifla’s surprise energy attack
Freeza: “Interesting… Yes, you may indeed be different than the other Saiyans. The first Super Saiyan I ever fought wasn’t nearly this strong.”

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Not necessarily. Gohan’s “True” power is supposed to be the 710

That's more of an assumption though. We're shown that his emotions greatly impact Gohan's power and Goku wasn't sure if he was naturally strong when asked about his strength by Kuririn. If he had a base level of Ki far surpassing his father, this wouldn't have been something to question.

INo reason to waste so much time on the strainful and uncontrollable SSJ3 if he can reach that power with SSJ2.

We're not shown him using SS3 after the Boo Arc though and even if you're referring to why he couldn't do the same for his Boo Arc self, that just adds to the evidence of Goku getting significantly stronger in those 10 years.

Official multipliers would put SSJ at almost 10% of SSJ3 which is dimensions below SSJG, so if we’re talking about numbers here it’s very unlikely less than 10% means something in the 6-8% range.

That would only support the SSJ multiplier being far lower in Super than in Z. It's not as though official material doesn't support a decrease in the multiplier either, given GT had a similar case of Rild saying Goku was using less than half his power after seeing the boost he got from SSJ.

And the far weaker Tenshinhan could pin down the far stronger Semi Cell with the Kikoho. They aren’t immovable objects, specially when they have their guard down or aren’t powered up.

A technique honed as Tenshinhan's way of keeping up with the power creep that also requires such strain it almost killed him is far from comparable to a simple kiai.

The Super anime does however, which is the continuity you explicitly referred to.

I only referred to it in context to Vegeta's statement as an additional point, with the remainder of my argument focusing solely on the manga continuity.

Yes, it always is. Goku unlocked SSJ2 and 3 in the Afterlife, what corroborates the Daizenshuu’s claim that their power ups post Nameks came mostly from transformations and fusions.

Yet we also have confirmation of the characters surpassing someone of the same form after the Cell Arc, such as SS2 Goku being stronger than CG SS2 Gohan despite the roles being reversed for their MSSJ selves 7 years earlier. If we're to bring forth guidebook statements, we also have the SEG citing the boosts for SS2 and 3 and if we're to agree that these are fixed boosts, obviously a user's base power would need to increase to surpass someone who'd otherwise be stronger than them in equal forms.

And if he were as strong as Boo in Super Saiyan with solo training, it would defeat the purpose of SSJ2, 3, God, fusion, Rosat… Basically the whole story for the sake of a imaginary fight.

Not when Pure Boo is far from the peak of power at the start of Super alone, nevermind its current events.

Trunks has fought Babidi and has an idea of the threat Boo could have been, so comparing him to Majin Boo would have been a good compliment.

Goku didn't even learn Trunks had done so until after their spar and even assuming he did, Trunks would have no solid grasp on Boo's power to know how much of a compliment that would be.

Freeza also doesn’t compare Caulifla to a SSJ until she actually became one, implying Base Caulifla didn’t have the same strength as SSJ Goku on Namek.

Not really. All he's doing in that statement is comparing the first time the times he's fought Super Saiyans. If we're to abide by this logic, MSSJ Goku should be weaker than Freeza due to Beerus not bringing up Freeza as a benchmark until Goku went SS2 in the manga.

 

[GSM123]

That's more of an assumption though. We're shown that his emotions greatly impact Gohan's power and Goku wasn't sure if he was naturally strong when asked about his strength by Kuririn. If he had a base level of Ki far surpassing his father, this wouldn't have been something to question.

That's right. There's also the fact Gohan still needs rage to unlock his "True power", so independent of whether 710 is his true power or not there's a 710x boost here.

Still nowhere near a billion/trillion-fold power up that's merely justified by an ambiguous compliment and a questionable feat, though.

We're not shown him using SS3 after the Boo Arc though and even if you're referring to why he couldn't do the same for his Boo Arc self, that just adds to the evidence of Goku getting significantly stronger in those 10 years.

I'm refering to his Boo Arc self. The forms clearly take a lot of time to be achieved as Trunks said it took at least two months for him and Vegeta to surpass the SSJ Wall in the Rosat, so why would Goku bother with unlocking and mastering forms if he can just grow his SSJ power? Specially SSJ3, a form so strainful that it consumes both energy and lifespan.

That would only support the SSJ multiplier being far lower in Super than in Z. It's not as though official material doesn't support a decrease in the multiplier either, given GT had a similar case of Rild saying Goku was using less than half his power after seeing the boost he got from SSJ.

Why would it decrease?

A technique honed as Tenshinhan's way of keeping up with the power creep that also requires such strain it almost killed him is far from comparable to a simple kiai.

And Trunks used a technique whose main ability is to move people/objects independent of their strenght on a strongly suppressed character.

Yet we also have confirmation of the characters surpassing someone of the same form after the Cell Arc, such as SS2 Goku being stronger than CG SS2 Gohan despite the roles being reversed for their MSSJ selves 7 years earlier. If we're to bring forth guidebook statements, we also have the SEG citing the boosts for SS2 and 3 and if we're to agree that these are fixed boosts, obviously a user's base power would need to increase to surpass someone who'd otherwise be stronger than them in equal forms.

Vegeta couldn't find out Goku surpassed him or Gohan by just sensing his Base or SSJ power, he had to sense Goku's SSj2 Burst to even start suspecting he's been outclassed. So it's doubtful the forms are constantly chained to a X times power up.

The multipliers we're given in SEG are within the "Training EX" pages that delve into Goku's power ups. So these are most likely to be talking about the gains Goku would make by transforming, what makes sense given how he trained more than Vegeta, who didn't train as hard as him and Gohan, who didn't train at all and slacked off.

Not when Pure Boo is far from the peak of power at the start of Super alone, nevermind its current events.

Doubtful when new material leans towards the idea of Pure Boo being a powerhouse. You even said that Pure Boo was one of the two

Either way it doesn't really matter whether Goku surpassed someone relevant or not, if we were supposed to believe Goku could've made any gains without achieving Super Saiyan God Toriyama wouldn't have come out on more than one occasion saying Goku and co. were maxed out.

When I decided, “For this movie, let’s go with the whole cast!” I thought, “What era would be best?” If it’s a few years after the “Majin Boo arc”, then almost all the cast members are at MAX strength…. And also, you know, in the final chapter, where Oob appears, I made [characters like] Bulma and Kuririn pretty old, so honestly, I thought, “Maaaybe it’s a biiit difficult” [to make the time period any later]. (laughs)

The fact is, I thought, “Man, I really made everyone old in the last chapter of the manga”. I even gave Vegeta a mustache (laughs). So, I chose this period because everyone had got to maximum strength. A few years after the “Majin Boo arc”, and before Pan’s birth.

It’s because I thought that period would be best in terms of timing, because at that time, everyone’s reached nearly perfect strength; during the Oob era after that, everyone’s gotten too old; and almost the whole cast of characters is there.

Goku didn't even learn Trunks had done so until after their spar and even assuming he did, Trunks would have no solid grasp on Boo's power to know how much of a compliment that would be.

Still, Trunks was also having his ass handed to him by Dabra not long before as a Super Saiyan and as a Super Saiyan 2 he needed Kaioshin's help. Although he did improve later he did all with solo training without any special means, what's not enough for him to achieve enough to strength to solo Z characters.

We also have characters from Z like Piccolo and Mr Boo keeping themselves semi-relevant in spite of no improvement being noted on their part. Goku was never stated to have absorbed the SSJG power in this continuity and his only feats are against a Hit that was eager to see Goku's true power and against Pride Troopers even Roshi could fend off. There's no feat, statement or logic behind the idea of Goku making improvements with forms he had taken to perfection, be it on Super or EoZ.