h0kuten said:
HUEBR_Tapion said:
h0kuten said:
That's your opinion. Thank-you for blatantly stating it.
You ever read the manga?
Goku stated that SSj Gotenks pre rosat would beat Fat Buu easily, and Piccolo states that Gotenks's ki is "really" absolutely incredible. In the exact moment that Super Buu is born, Piccolo is already nervous about Gotenks's chances
Context: after Boo transforms into evil Boo
Piccolo: “…Have you noticed? …This change in Majin Boo’s ki…[ ] …He’s changed…All due to some idiotic Earthlings…He’s become pure evil, and his body has become more suited toward battle…Th-this…this…”
Kuririn: “Wha…What?...D-don’t tell me you’re saying this is bad!? …It’s al-alright! We’ve got the squirts’ Fusion! Goku said that right? That Fusion was the strongest…!”
Dende: “…”
Piccolo: “…That’d be nice, but…”
And
Context: as Piccolo plans on having Goten and Trunks train in the Room of Spirit and Time
Piccolo: “Can’t you tell…?! As they are now, even if they perform Fusion they can’t win, no doubt about it…! Tell them that if they don’t want to die while they’re still just little brats, then they should train as much as they can…!”
Super Buu>>>>>>>>Fat Buu, and your baseless fan opinion won't change that.
Oh, you got me there, you're amazing!
Oh wait...
Gotenks SSj Pre-RoSaT: http://dbzeta.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3629
That's right, I already countered all that
Oh, really? Let's check your "counters"
a) Gotenks Base Pre-RoSaT survived Majin Boo, Vegeta didn't; therefore he has to be around Super Saiyan 2 power.
Counter-Argument
There are countless scenarios where a weaker fighter survives a stronger fighter, but it doesn't mean they are stronger than anybody else. Some examples include Hercule fighting Perfect Cell & Kid Boo. Vegeta in his Ssj2 & Base form being mercilessly assaulted by Kid Boo -who is not known to hold back power. Kaioshin surviving Boo. Surviving a fight doesn't account for anything.
Hercule surviving attacks from these 2 villains are gag scenes and PIS(plot induced stupidity), there aren't any serious example of much weaker fighters surviving much stronger in a REAL one vs. one battle.
Argument
b) Gotenks says Gotenks' will defeat Majin Boo and it isn't contradicted.
Counter-Argument
Goku made the statement prior to being able to accurately gauge the strength of the boys. Therefore it's not an accurate power statement and is contradicted when he isn't even certain if what they're showing them is their full power.
Goku's statement was never contradicted, not even by Piccolo, someone who saw Gotenks transforming in all of his Super Saiyan forms, pre rosat and post rosat. So it was Akira Toriyama's real opinion on the matter when he wrote the quote. There aren't such thing as an "accurate power statement" when the statement made by Character A was never contradicted by B, and is in fact SUPPORTED by Character B.
Counter-Argument
Actually, within the context of the statement Goku only says 'no' to using it for the sole purpose of speeding up the time it will take to learn the fusion. He later says 'they might need it later'. This also contradicts the notion that Gotenks' strength wasn't contradicted and debunks the notion that he didn't intend for them to use the RoSaT.
Right, this one doesn't means much to Gotenks's strength.
Counter-Argument
Gotenks was remarked as being able to win 'one way or another', this doesn't have to include battle power as Goku has seen the fusion before and knows it likely yields some weird powers.
Additionally, Piccolo says the same thing to Gotenks about both Boo's: that he needs to 'train and train' in preparation for both fights. The statement isn't contradicted in either situation, therefore it's true until contradicted.
Also, Goku figured they would learn to fuse quickly, which would give them the remainder of the time to focus on training, and if need be, they could use the RoSaT. So no, Goku isn't an idiot, but it doesn't mean Gotenks Ssj Pre-RoSaT would be strong enough to defeat Majin Boo without the benefits of training, because Goku wasn't certain if he would be or not.
BLATANT, BLATANT hypocrisy detected with your first argument. Saying that the statement is true until contradicted when it supports your argument, but not when it doesn't. Nitpicker detected.
Goku states many times that Gotenks would have a comfortable victory with Fat Buu, and Piccolo only supports it when he says that Gotenks's ki is really incredible.
My analysis in another topic proves that speed doesn't correlate with strength in linear progression. Hence why Piccolo was testing him. Gotenks was foolish enough to believe so, but this is completely false. Ginyu was 33% stronger than Goku on Namek, but he was much slower. Because speed & strength can differ so greatly from one another, it makes it impossible to judge a characters power based solely on speed alone.
Uhm. Another point that doesn't affect Gotenks's power.
The entire point of telling Majin Boo that was buy time for the boys to learn the fusion. It wasn't meant to be taken as an actual fact. Then there is this:
Note: Goku actually never told Boo this (apparently he's gone senile in the afterlife).
You doesn't have proof of what you're saying. If Goku was just buying time for them, he would've said something in the lines of "They are almost as incredible as me". Saiyans are unbelievably prideful, they won't admit that an opponent is stronger than them UNLESS they really are(proved by Vegeta's statements with Imperfect Cell) Until contradicted, Goku's statement is a literal proof of SSj Gotenks Pre>SSj3 Goku
Piccolo was willing to let Super Boo annihilate the entire population (7 Billion people, or the remaining 90%) for the sole purpose of giving Gotenks a chance to close the gap.
Goku knows they still have the Dragon Balls and previously told Gohan during the Cell Games not to worry about whatever damage he does because it can all be reversed with the Dragon Balls.
After Kid Boo appeared, Goku was teleported to the World Of The Kais and he says:
Goku: “It’s alright. I’m tellin’ ya, don’t worry. He can’t come all the way here. We’ll think up some sorta strategy. I feel bad for the aliens who will be sacrificed in the meantime, but we’ll use the dragonballs later…”
Goku is willing to make the sacrifice to give Gotenks a chance to succeed, because all the damage can later be undone.
This point also doesn't affect Gotenks's power.
Actually, if you look at the context of the statement:
Goku: "Sorry, but we don't know when Babidi will find us. We've gotta start now."
Piccolo: "Will you use the Room of Spirit and Time?"
Goku: "No. They can only use it for two days in their whole lives, right? They might need it later. I'm sure they're gonna learn this quick."
Goku says they have to start learning to fuse right away because nobody knows when Majin Boo might find them. Piccolo offers to use the RoSaT to speed up the process, but Goku refrains from using that and says they might need it after.
Goku wasn't saying that the boys didn't need the RoSaT because the fusion on it's own would be strong enough to defeat Boo, he was neglecting in using it as a means for the boys to learn the Metamoran quicker, which would waste time. He than blatantly says 'They might NEED IT LATER' because they are going to learn to fuse quickly.
So finally, Goku isn't 100% certain if Gotenks, even as a Super Saiyan, would become strong enough. The RoSaT was a back-up plan just in case he wasn't. This also debunks pretty much all the Gotenks Pre-RoSaT arguments.
Goku stated many times that Gotenks would be enough to defeat Fat Buu, and even said that "YES, Fusion is just THAT extreme". He saying that the kids might need it later was probably Goku fearing that Fat Buu was not using his full power when he battled with him? Because your logic would contradict all of Goku's previous statements and that is completely ridiculous. You've debunked nothing.
This particular argument uses the quote from Piccolo that says 'even if you get just a little stronger, it will be more effective when you perform fusion'. All this means is 'Goten + 1 / Trunks + 1 = Gotenks +n 2'.
Therefore 'Gotenks Base Post > Gotenks Ssj Pre' is hereby disproven. Additionally, Piccolo started to build hope based off how perfectly the boys performed the fusion dance and built his expectations off of a 'not fully powered' Gotenks.
Fusion does scale linearly. There is no evidence to suggest it doesn't. This argument is a desperate cop-out to make the 'Base Post > Ssj Pre' theory work. It's both a numeric impossibility and a logical fallacy due to having no evidence to substantiate the claim.
P.S.
For the people who actually believe that fusion doesn't scale linearly, than you are creating a paradox and a big hole in your logic by believing Goku can sense the Metamoran individuals and their fused product and determine what Gotenks Ssj Pre will be.
Your logic collapses in on itself.
Gotenks Post >> SSj Pre was never disproven. Your assumption of Piccolo thinking that Gotenks was not using full power is debunked by the own Piccolo saying that he didn't think that they could transform into SSj. Even the own manga supports it. The chain is:
~SSj Gotenks pre being capable of comfortably defeating Fat Buu.
~Piccolo agreeing with it.
~SSj Gotenks being absolutely nothing to Super Buu initial.
~Gotenks training in the rosat.
~Piccolo acknowleding that they might be able to defeat Super Buu initial.
~Piccolo surprised of SSj.
Base Gotenks(post) >> SSj Gotenks(pre)
Akira Toriyma also doesn't care about paradoxes and real life logic. We're talking about a kids manga, about an author that clearly only knows the basic, shown by his series.
Counter-Argument:
Piccolo didn't have the time to contradict Gotenks' whom flew off almost immediately. Piccolo resorts to trying to stop him because of the amount of time they have left and they would ultimately defuse and then Earth's only hope would be killed off. However, don't make the mistake of thinking that's the same as Piccolo not doubting their strength. He never had the time to vocalize his doubts and even with what he was able to say to himself, the safety of the individuals was clearly more paramount.
Piccolo doesn't need to vocalize his doubts. He already said that Gotenks's ki was really incredible, based in what Goku thought about the final result of Gotenks being incredible.
Argument: How can Gotenks be weaker than Boo as a Super Saiyan?
Counter-Argument: After Kibito & Kaioshin merged with the Potara, their strength wasn't even considered on par with Vegeta Ssj2; yet Kaioshin alone was considered a dimension above Piccolo, and because the Potara has greater affect than the Metamoran fusion, this makes it a mathematical impossibility for Gotenks Ssj Pre-RoSaT to actually surpass Fat Boo.
Again, Toriyama doesn't care about mathematical impossibilities in the manga. Stop trying to use real life logic in a simple manga for kids, thinking that you're completely fan-made rules support you. We only know that Piccolo feared Kaioshin and that the latter is much stronger than Freeza, while we know absolutely nothing about Kibito's power.
You're also going against direct and uncontradicted statements by main characters.
