Is this evidence that 22nd TB Goku ~ Baba Saga Goku?

Hector

High Class Warrior
Member
Joined
Jun 9, 2020
Messages
2,204
At the end of the Original Dragon Ball, Roshi says (about Goku), "I only taught him the basics. It was Korin and Kami who took him this far."

If his solo training in the wild for 3 years also gave him a multi-fold power boost like the ones he got after training with Korin and Kami, why didn't Roshi include that too in his statement? He could've said something like, "It was his self-training, as well as Korin and Kami, that took him this far."
 

DBZAOTA482

High Class Warrior
Member
Joined
May 30, 2015
Messages
1,292
Age
28
Roshi didn't even teach Goku the basics. That was Grandpa Gohan.

Credit stealer.
 

GreatSaiyaman123

Super Elite
Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2017
Messages
14,756
Age
22
I think we can all at least agree the 22TB training was his least notable increase. 1.5x - 2x while everything else was at least 2x.
 

ahill1

Super Elite
Donor
Joined
Sep 4, 2015
Messages
14,407
I'd like for, narrative wise, the 22nd Budokai increase to be bigger than the one he had at Karin. He received a very big increase Vs Karin, indeed. He couldn't do anything to Tao before and outclassed him later. Roshi thought he likely couldn't defeat Mummy if it were Goku from the 21st, but he one-shotted Mummy.

But in the 22nd Budokai... Roshi thought Goku was in a stiff match from the start, Vs Chappa, and Goku easily dominated him without any effort at all. Then, Vs Kuririn, Goku decided to use more effort and totally outsped and outclassed Kuririn, and Roshi was all surprised. And then, he decided to go more seriously when Kuririn used cheap shots and disappeared from everyone's sight except Ten's. Roshi admitted upon saying that, that Goku was likely stronger than him... Saying Goku only gets better and better. And then, Roshi anticipated Goku Vs Ten as the match Kuririn couldn't hope to see other one like that and to pay close attention... And still, as Roshi didn't even know, Goku was holding back a whole new level of power, his battle level, that he used unrestricted when he knew he wouldn't kill the opponent. Those are big layers separating Karin Goku, who Roshi thought was already in a stiff match Vs Chappa, to the Goku who used battle level Vs Tenshinhan. Not only that, but those were 3 years of heavy training with the intensity already surprising Roshi when Goku took so serious the thing about not using Kintoun as he came swimming from a different continent and didn't seem even tired. 3 years of this intense training with all the reactions shown should triumph Karin's training, which were 3 days, but yeah, wielded exceptional gains too, but the level of effort, intensity and all the big surprises Goku kept giving them at the 22nd seems more impressive imo.

It's also worth noting that Goku and Tenshinhan seem considerably above Roshi, while it seemed to be common knowledge before Roshi was only slightly below them. Roshi stated he'd likely lose to Tenshinhan and that Goku likely surpassed him... But that was before seeing both Goku and Tenshinhan upping a level of effort in the final match. Tenshinhan used more power when he caught Goku's super speed and Roshi was surprised at Ten's finger speed calling it a machine gun... And then Goku stated he could finally dish out his battle level, which Roshi was surprised to hear. So Roshi admitted inferiority to a Goku whom he didn't even know had another new level prepared.

Goku (battle level) > Tenshinhan >> Goku (full match level) ~ Tenshinhan (initially in the match) >= Roshi

I'd say Roshi is like 75% ~ 80% of both finalists.
 

Goku9001

Mid Class Warrior
Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2016
Messages
878
Age
26
I don't think it's as drastic as most believe it is because Tao Pai Pai still serves as a relevant benchmark for the contestants. It would still need to account for TB22 Goku (Battle Level) > Korin > Tenshinhan > Goku (Match Level) > Roshi > Tsuru-sennin > Tao Pai Pai where Roshi lost track of Goku's (Match Level) movements. I have Goku becoming 2x stronger. It was at this point where Goku was starting to hit his limits at the time.
 

ahill1

Super Elite
Donor
Joined
Sep 4, 2015
Messages
14,407
And you can say Goku was himself's master when he trained alone for 3 years.
Kami stated Goku had an exceptional master and Roshi just praised Karin and Kami instead. It's understandable he wouldn't say 'Goku is also why he's this strong". Roshi didn't think he deserved the credit and returned it to Karin and Kami instead. There isn't much to it. It could have been also said Goku wouldn't have progressed much with the intense training to the 22nd were it not for him building his strength with Karin, so there's that too, Karin may have given him the means to grow through himself that much preparing for the 22nd. And Roshi knew Goku got so strong since the 22nd before training with Kami since he defeated Piccolo Daimao.

But overall, it's just some flattering statement where Roshi is actually saying the other masters were more significant than him. It doesn't carry much implications regarding Goku's lack of growth by himself.
 

Hector

High Class Warrior
Member
Joined
Jun 9, 2020
Messages
2,204
Kami stated Goku had an exceptional master and Roshi just praised Karin and Kami instead. It's understandable he wouldn't say 'Goku is also why he's this strong". Roshi didn't think he deserved the credit and returned it to Karin and Kami instead. There isn't much to it. It could have been also said Goku wouldn't have progressed much with the intense training to the 22nd were it not for him building his strength with Karin, so there's that too, Karin may have given him the means to grow through himself that much preparing for the 22nd. And Roshi knew Goku got so strong since the 22nd before training with Kami since he defeated Piccolo Daimao.

But overall, it's just some flattering statement where Roshi is actually saying the other masters were more significant than him. It doesn't carry much implications regarding Goku's lack of growth by himself.
How about this? At Baba Saga, someone said that if Goku participates in the next tournament (22nd), he has the first place in the bag. There wouldn't be much point in the author putting this comment in if, later, at the 22nd TB, there is a bunch of fighters who can defeat Baba Saga Goku (King Chappa, Chaozu, Yamcha, Krillin etc.) That, along with the fact that, 3 years later, Taopaipai is still considered a powerhouse, implies that Baba Saga Goku is already close to what is considered the limit of the human capabilities before Piccolo Saga.
 

ahill1

Super Elite
Donor
Joined
Sep 4, 2015
Messages
14,407
Who said it again?

Btw, thinking it over seeing how incredible Goku just was in the tournament is one thing. Kuririn and Yamcha thought Goku as just untouchable there. It doesn't mean their own training can't surprise them and benefit them with gains enough that they have their confidence back. There'd be no point to the confidence they expressed at the plane if they were still weaker than that power. There would be no point to emphasize Goku's rigorous training if he got small gains. There'd be no point to Goku surprising them many times at the Budokai if he got small gains. It all implies big gains. Earlier perceptions don't eliminate what's implied later on.

It's like saying Yamcha and Kuririn didn't get stronger than 23rd Goku in the Saiyans saga because they saw Goku as a God in the 23rd Budokai. Or saying Kuririn couldn't surpass 30,000 Vegeta because he said that frankly, even with Gohan getting his power unlocked, he doesn't think they can face Vegeta and that Vegeta is just someone different, that keeps getting stronger always.
 
Top