I've been watching Naruto

[Future Warrior]

It's not that great, but it's not AS bad as I thought. I've made it up to around early Shippuden, not as good as part 1 but hasn't reached unwatchable trash tier yet. Aside from some shit character writing (Sakura...), I'm pretty entertained by it.

I do like that not every fight is resolved as simple as DB has like just being more powerful and such, and I really like the ost. We'll see how it goes from here.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Shippuden isn't completely without worth, with positives such as how it handled Jiraiya and Shikamaru VS Hidan being a good strategic battle, though it's definitely a downward slope after a certain point and, without spoilers, ends up completely contradicting the core message of the series' early days at a certain point. It did have moments of potential, but a lot of the good ideas failed in execution. Doesn't help that the Shippuden anime starts to pad itself with filler to the point it's abundance has become the go-to criticism for it, particularly when some filler arcs like Mecha Naruto are about as canon as a 90s DBZ movie 2.

 

[Future Warrior]

I think I already know about what your talking about regarding the themes. Basically we find out that Naruto and Sasuke are Demi Gods or some shit? So much for all that shit Naruto was spouting during the Neji fight lol.

I was already warned on the amount of filler that Naruto had so I was able to watch it by just skipping them. Otherwise I would probably still be watching all those filler episodes after the Sasuke retrieval arc in part 1.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I think I already know about what your talking about regarding the themes. Basically we find out that Naruto and Sasuke are Demi Gods or some shit? So much for all that shit Naruto was spouting during the Neji fight lol.

Not only that, but the "child of prophecy" is mentioned long before that and it being alluded to be Naruto (which that later reveal confirms it partially is), so yeah, Neji was right all along .

 

[Warmmedown]

Part 1 is pretty good, if you skip the around 100 filler episodes. Shipuuden seemed to throw the rules of chakra out the window and Sakura leaving it to the actual last possible second before inevitable death to punch that poison guy was too much. I can imagine it's still entertaining though. I'd guess smoking crack is entertaining too though.

 

[sei'taer]

Eh none of that invalidates all the hard work Naruto goes through to reach that point. I don't feel it invalidates the message of the series at all.

Aside from the late game, Naruto earns every ounce of power he possesses.

Spoiler

Even the person he's the reincarnation of is supposed to be one who relied on the strength of others, and had to work hard while his brother had all the natural talent.

Anyway I thoroughly enjoyed Naruto despite the authors inability to write female characters or have them do anything of note. Though like all Shonen series, the anime pads the hell out of things, but when they cut lose the fights are amazing.

 

[Papasmurf]

Sei'taer being a tool as always I see.

[mention]Future Warrior[/mention] It all goes completely to shit after the Hidan and Kakuzu arc. Might as well drop it there.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

It all goes completely to shit after the Hidan and Kakuzu arc. Might as well drop it there.

I'd say with the minor exception of the Tale of the Gallant Jiraiya Arc (if treating it as separate from the Pain Arc), since that at least featured Shippuden's high points despite it also setting up one of its greatest lows.

 

[Future Warrior]

Eh none of that invalidates all the hard work Naruto goes through to reach that point. I don't feel it invalidates the message of the series at all.

Aside from the late game, Naruto earns every ounce of power he possesses.

Spoiler

Even the person he's the reincarnation of is supposed to be one who relied on the strength of others, and had to work hard while his brother had all the natural talent.

Anyway I thoroughly enjoyed Naruto despite the authors inability to write female characters or have them do anything of note. Though like all Shonen series, the anime pads the hell out of things, but when they cut lose the fights are amazing.

See, all that in itself isn't an issue but the fact that all of his actions in his life are predestined to get to where he is apparently (this is what I heard, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). So basically, fate is what brought him to that level.

Basically, Naruto against Neji fought for an idea that was BS because he was destined to achieve all the things he did. It ruins the dynamic the two characters had during the fight.

There are actually worse story issues I've heard from others, such as Naruto being the child of both well known prodigies and yet everyone still treats him like shit. He should have stayed as an untalented nobody that happened to have the Kyuubi sealed into him randomly.

Pretty interesting how Toriyama plans even less ahead than Kishimoto and yet more story plot holes can be found in the latter case.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Yeah, the predestined aspect of Naruto's character completely ruins his journey, and the attempt at damage control for it even after the fact is poorly handled. That's not even the most damaging aspect of his character, such as how he acts to (without spoilers) a certain villain after a shift in dynamics.

The handling of characters in Part 2 Naruto is easily one of its greatest weaknesses, with some having dramatic shifts in personality after rushed development and others either having underwhelming or overly-convoluted motives.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Pretty interesting how Toriyama plans even less ahead than Kishimoto and yet more story plot holes can be found in the latter case.

Forgot to point this out in my previous post, but truer words couldn't have been said. This also applies to Oda with One Piece that started to feature some major inconsistencies despite Oda being notable for planning. I'd say it serves to show that, if knowing one's strength, it's best to go fully "Architect" or "Gardener" in one's approach to crafting a story rather than trying to take a middle ground.

For example, Naruto's placement of a ceiling on certain things early on cause several inconsistencies later on, such as Sasuke and Naruto being able to react to Haku in the first arc despite him having greater chakra than Zabuza, how ninja scrolls work (Naruto can just learn the Kage Bunshin no Jutsu by reading a scroll, so why can't others do the same?) or the elemental Releases of chakra being introduced after Naruto's training with Jiraiya when you'd think an experienced Jonin would bother to teach him something so essential in those 3 years. Toriyama's more constant path of going forward and only building up things he expected to deliver on fully such as the Super Saiyan worked in his favour by giving him less constraints and there was plenty to draw back on to retroactively feel as foreshadowing without contradicting anything (eg. how seamlessly the reveal of Goku being an alien ties into everything in his childhood). When Kishimoto tried to do the same, it always came at the cost of having to rewrite and often retcon elements of certain scenes or disrupt many established elements (things such as Itachi's true motives or Hashirama's boosted significance in Part 2 coming to mind).
It's pretty comparable to how Super attempts to trick the audience into believing there's a major plan for future events, only for it to result in Beerus' power getting retconned with each arc or characters regressing to the extent they have to learn what should be natural to them.

 

[Future Warrior]

That pretty much sums up the dangers of writing weekly shonen jump. Toriyama is one of the few people who could pull it off because he doesn't try to create his fictional world too deeply and that's perfect for these types of stories.

 

[sei'taer]

See, all that in itself isn't an issue but the fact that all of his actions in his life are predestined to get to where he is apparently (this is what I heard, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). So basically, fate is what brought him to that level.

The prophecy was that the reincarnations of Indra and Ashura were destined to decide the fate of the Shinobi world. Being the reincarnation of Ashura meant that Naruto was destined to do everything through hard work, but it doesn't invalidate the things that he does. The actions he takes and the people he saves aren't pre-ordained. The struggles he goes through for acceptance aren't invalidated. There's certainly nothing about becoming Hokage saving his village or any of the other personal struggles he goes through before the Great Shinobi war.

For example, Naruto's placement of a ceiling on certain things early on cause several inconsistencies later on, such as Sasuke and Naruto being able to react to Haku in the first arc despite him having greater chakra than Zabuza, how ninja scrolls work (Naruto can just learn the Kage Bunshin no Jutsu by reading a scroll, so why can't others do the same?) or the elemental Releases of chakra being introduced after Naruto's training with Jiraiya when you'd think an experienced Jonin would bother to teach him something so essential in those 3 years.

The reason why the scroll Naruta stole was forbidden is that most Ninja do not have the chakra to perform that many clones safely. Dividing your chakra into that many clones is not something a shinobi without a massive chakra pool could do. Elemental Chakra is alluded to before the time skip during the training for the Chuuni exam finals when Kakashi teaches Sasuke the Chidori because they're the same type. So Jiraya not teaching him about Chakra natures was intentional writing.

Sei'taer being a tool as always I see.

Oh noes, I dare disagree with CC about things!

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Elemental Chakra is alluded to before the time skip during the training for the Chuuni exam finals when Kakashi teaches Sasuke the Chidori because they're the same type. So Jiraya not teaching him about Chakra natures was intentional writing.

Elemental Chakra being a thing isn't the problem. The fact that Jiraiya never bothered to teach him it, however, is as he was meant to do his best to teach Naruto what he could rather than just half-assing things and leaving it to Yamato and makes him seem very incompetent. Not teaching something that's commonplace to Jonin from the start when your pupil is dead-set on facing someone being groomed as Orochimaru's successor/host is like running in shoes without having fastened the laces, lacking foresight and setting up unnecessary stumbles.

Oh noes, I dare disagree with CC about things!

Really resorting to that strawman when I'm clearly not the only one in this thread with a negative opinion on Part 2, nor do I agree 100% with anyone in this thread on every single matter?

 

[Papasmurf]

See, all that in itself isn't an issue but the fact that all of his actions in his life are predestined to get to where he is apparently (this is what I heard, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). So basically, fate is what brought him to that level.

The prophecy was that the reincarnations of Indra and Ashura were destined to decide the fate of the Shinobi world. Being the reincarnation of Ashura meant that Naruto was destined to do everything through hard work, but it doesn't invalidate the things that he does. The actions he takes and the people he saves aren't pre-ordained. The struggles he goes through for acceptance aren't invalidated. There's certainly nothing about becoming Hokage saving his village or any of the other personal struggles he goes through before the Great Shinobi war.

Yeah that's bullshit dawg, it wasn't destined that Goku became SSJ or any other form he attained afterwards, it's just how the plot unfolded. The fact that Naruto was destined for incomparably greater things than the anti-heroes and villains who scoffed at him in Part 1 completely kills his underdog story, because it'd be like if I lost 800 lbs and set a new world record on the amount of weight lost without surgery, and it turned out that God or whatever preordained it so that I don't die of a stroke long enough and inevitably have the necessary willpower to stay off the sweets and carbs long enough to get thin despite originally weighing 960 lbs. Compare that to Guts being originally destined to die at the Eclipse, to make little to no impact in the Conviction arc only to succeed in rescuing Casca and survive the onslaught of enemies along with many others he fought alongside with (the opposite of him losing the entire BotH in the original Eclipse).

Underdog stories are appealing because they overcome all odds, that's why it's always catharsis inducing to see people overcome obstacles they never knew they could. If it's all predestined, it's like winning a title in the WWE. You didn't earn it, your popularity caused the writers to write you into that role. That's stupid, and part of the reason why I've never been a fan of pro wrestling because you can just watch a Michael Bay movie and it'd feature just as much action with more spectacle and impressive effects 2

Elemental Chakra is alluded to before the time skip during the training for the Chuuni exam finals when Kakashi teaches Sasuke the Chidori because they're the same type. So Jiraya not teaching him about Chakra natures was intentional writing.

Haha, no it wasn't. Chakra natures were never alluded to with the Chidori in Part 1, in fact Guy only mentions that Kakashi cut a lightning bolt with Chidori/Raikiri rather than it being a concentration of lightning chakra, and Sasuke's elemental affinity before this was fire, seeing as he mastered that at a far younger age (even before the Uchiha massacre).

Plus, as said above the idea of Naruto being able to control his first couple of Jinchuriki transformations and having become more physically mature to boot, yet only having learned how to make bigger Rasengan and not even having the same Chakra control as Part 1 Sasuke or Sakura is hilariously stupid writing. It'd be like if 23rd Yamcha couldn't form his first Kamehameha, much less a Sokidan.

Sei'taer being a tool as always I see.

Oh noes, I dare disagree with CC about things!

I disagree with CC plenty. We've even critiqued each other's pieces of writing. I just think you are writing a fanboy defense and not one that acknowledges Naruto has its faults even if you enjoy it. I certainly find plenty of faults in JoJo, One Piece, Berserk, and even some of my sentimental favorites like Tatami Galaxy, Tekkaman, Slam Dunk and early GTO (in fact, I find greater faults in those series than in Berserk really).

And all the same, I've watched animes that I believe were mostly a waste of time in retrospect, which I can find little appeal in. But I can still admit I can see some good parts of Sword Ass Online (mostly the female designs) or boring shit like Hack sign and Wolf's Rain.

 

[Animelover5487]

What do you think about the power scaling?