Jiren vs Whis

[Pakl]

Who wins and how such difficulty?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Considering most supplementary material has referred to Jiren as being in the same league as the Hakaishin and he isn't confirmed to be far superior to Belmod, I'd assume Whis was only estimating his full power rather than his initial power when stating Jiren > Belmod > Beerus. All that considered, I wouldn't say Jiren should be too far above Hakaishin tier, so Whis wins with low or mid-diff.

 

[SSJ3 Gothic]

Even at even levels, Whis outclasses Jiren in technique and abilities. Things such as the time reversal establish Whis hat having a wider arsenal at his disposal, so he takes down Jiren eventually. Even a hard fight should go his way.

 

[Keedounan]

Whis stomps, not only for reasons CC already stated, but also because he has mastered Ultra Instinct.

 

[Pakl]

Considering most supplementary material has referred to Jiren as being in the same league as the Hakaishin and he isn't confirmed to be far superior to Belmod, I'd assume Whis was only estimating his full power rather than his initial power when stating Jiren > Belmod > Beerus. All that considered, I wouldn't say Jiren should be too far above Hakaishin tier, so Whis wins with low or mid-diff.

Belmod > Beerus is not stated.. Whis saying there is a mortal stronger than his god of destruction who is stronger than Beerus doesn't even make sense in the context.... It didnt even seem like he knew who he wasbtalking about

 

[Keedounan]

Considering most supplementary material has referred to Jiren as being in the same league as the Hakaishin and he isn't confirmed to be far superior to Belmod, I'd assume Whis was only estimating his full power rather than his initial power when stating Jiren > Belmod > Beerus. All that considered, I wouldn't say Jiren should be too far above Hakaishin tier, so Whis wins with low or mid-diff.

Belmod > Beerus is not stated.. Whis saying there is a mortal stronger than his god of destruction who is stronger than Beerus doesn't even make sense in the context.... It didnt even seem like he knew who he was talking about

It was a rumor, which he confirmed to be true later.

 

[Pakl]

I am saying he didnt even seem to know who this god was

 

[Keedounan]

I am saying he didnt even seem to know who this god was

He didn't know who the mortal was either. Didn't keep Jiren > Belmod from being true.

 

[Flame]

I feel like there'd be some statements about it if Jiren had surpassed the angels. So for now, Jiren is still below them imo.

 

[Pakl]

I am saying he didnt even seem to know who this god was

He didn't know who the mortal was either. Didn't keep Jiren > Belmod from being true.

He says there is an Hakaishin stronger than Beerus and Beerus says he only lost in aem wrestling, then when he says Jiren is this mortal, it seems like hw didn't even know it was from Belmod universe... Again the context made no sense... Especially when Goku already told them there is someone stronger than Toppo so they shoud of mention this mortal should be from Universe 11

 

[Pyro]

Jiren loses in laughable fashion.

 

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

No real reason why Whis would win this. Jiren is beyond comprehension in the words of Vados since he transcends time, so the Gods of Destruction and Angels obviously don't otherwise it wouldn't be a feat beyond her comprehension.

Goku in Blue is stated to rival the gods, so he's comparable to them in some way, not dozens of times weaker and he managed to tag and throw Whis in combat. He did significantly better against Whis in Blue than he did against Jiren using Kaiokenx20.

 

[Keedounan]

No real reason why Whis would win this. Jiren is beyond comprehension in the words of Vados since he transcends time

Something Goku has already done in the past. Plus, Whis and Vados have an understanding of Zeno's and Grand Priest's power too. Will you argue that Goku and Jiren > Zeno and Grand Priest on them based on it ?

This statement is nothing more than a hyperbole.

Goku in Blue is stated to rival the gods, so he'd be comparable to them in some way, not dozens of times weaker

Considering Toppo's strength as a candidate to be a God of Destruction was strong enough to overwhelm SSJB2 Vegeta until the latter powered up thanks to a second wind, Goku Blue isn't even close to the real Gods of Destruction.

and he managed to tag and throw Whis in combat. He did significantly better against Whis in Blue than he did against Jiren using Kaiokenx20.

And Vegeta Blue could dodge, block Jiren's attacks and even hit him twice. On the other hand, Whis casually blocks Goku's hits with one hand.

You'll argue that Jiren was holding back, but so was Whis.

 

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

I'm not sure what Zeno and the Grand Priest have to do with anything. This seems like the number 1 fallacious go to argument to ignore statements. Jiren is beyond Vados' comprehension and there isn't anything implying that the Angels or anyone else have a full understanding of what the Grand Priest or Zeno are fully capable of.

If a feat is beyond her comprehension, then that means she can't do it herself. That much is clear.

Vegeta whooped Toppo the moment he got serious, so Toppo isn't on Vegeta's level as far as stats are concerned, thus isn't as strong as Goku whom he stated that he wasn't sure he could beat anyway, therefore left him to Jiren.

Ivan stated that SSJG Goku and Toppo reached their tier and Roh flat out stated that Goku's power in Blue rivaled the Gods, so SSB Goku isn't multiple times weaker than them, otherwise he wouldn't rival them.

There is no evidence that Whis held back against Goku. And Jiren doesn't need to block any hits from Blue tiers. He was tanking SSB Vegeta just fine. Vegeta hit him when he analyzed Jiren's attack and breached his energy while he had an opening. Then he capitalized on the opening, which still didn't really do anything as stated by Khai.

 

[Keedounan]

I'm not sure what Zeno and the Grand Priest have to do with anything.

Are you doing that on purpose ? I've just spelt it out for you. If you think that Jiren > Zeno and Grand Priest is absurd based on that reasoning, then this statement is flawed. Simple as that.

Jiren is beyond Vados' comprehension and there isn't anything implying that the Angels or anyone else have a full understanding of what the Grand Priest or Zeno are fully capable of.

They understand it enough to tell that Great Priest is far above Whis or that Zeno > All. Yet Jiren's power is above understanding. Isn't that the reasoning you used earlier ?

If a feat is beyond her comprehension, then that means she can't do it herself. That much is clear.

Then Goku Blue is stronger than her, because he transcended time too.

Vegeta whooped Toppo the moment he got serious, so Toppo isn't on Vegeta's level as far as stats are concerned, thus isn't as strong as Goku, therefore left him to Jiren.

So Goku SSJB > Vegeta SSJB2 ? Are you aware of the nobsense you're telling me ?

Ivan stated that SSJG Goku and Toppo reached their tier

Said after Goku Blue stated he has a long way before reaching their level. He isn't even close to their level.

There is no evidence that Whis held back against Goku.

Don't you have any common sense ? Do you think Whis would use one hand if he was fighting seriously ? The instant Beerus got a little more serious, he one-shotted Vegeta CSSJB. Whis is far stronger than Beerus.

And Jiren doesn't need to block any hits from Blue tiers. He was tanking SSB Vegeta just fine.

Considering Jiren's reaction to Vegeta's hits, you have an interesting definition of "tanking".

Vegeta hit him when he analyzed Jiren's attack and breached his energy while he had an opening. Then he capitalized on the opening, which still didn't really do anything as stated by Khai.

And after this initial hit, Vegeta pressured Jiren until he kicked him. That much cannot be explained by an analysis of the attack.

 

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

No, there isn't any evidence that Vados has a complete understanding of all that Zeno and the Grand Priest can do with their power. And they aren't relevant.

If Jiren is beyond Vados' comprehension, then he's above her. Jiren was never compared to Zeno and the Grand Priest and they should've never even been brought up. SSB Goku has never replicated Jiren's feat, so no to him surpassing time.

Jiren didn't one shot 17 and a Jiren is far superior to Beerus as well as any God, so the logic doesn't hold.

Jiren tanked Vegeta easily when Vegeta initially rushed him with Vegeta stating that he never fought anyone with energy as strong as Jiren.

When did I state that SSB Goku was stronger than Beyond Blue Vegeta? SSB Kaioken Goku is as strong as him and Beyond Blue Vegeta thrashed God Toppo but needed a suicide move to overcome the Destruction energy. Kaioken Goku would need to do something similar to overcome the Destruction energy.

You already misread my posts, so this isn't going anywhere. I'm done. I already know this is just going to be me constantly correcting you. And most of your points are going to be obscure at best and are just going to leave me scratching my head wondering how anyone would even come to such a conclusion, like your Jiren and Zeno comparison.

 

[Keedounan]

No, there isn't any evidence that Vados has a complete understanding of all that Zeno and the Grand Priest can do with their power.

And there isn't any evidence that she doesn't. She certainly understands their power far better than Jiren's. And yes, they are relevant, because it's the proof that your reasoning is completely flawed.

If Jiren is beyond Vados' comprehension, then he's above her.

He's not, for the simple reason that the site placed him at the level of a God of Destruction.

SSB Goku has never replicated Jiren's feat, so no to him surpassing time.

1)Surpassed the Tokitobashi, which manipulates (skips) time.
2)Destroyed a space literally made of time.

So yes, Goku technically surpassed time.

Jiren didn't one shot 17 and a Jiren is far superior to Beerus as well as any God, so the logic doesn't hold.

There isn't even an evidence that Jiren is superior to Beerus, let alone far superior. And the only reason he didn't one shot 17 is because of plot armor.

Jiren tanked Vegeta easily when Vegeta initially rushed him with Vegeta stating that he never fought anyone with energy as strong as Jiren.

Then we're not talking about the same moment...

When did I state that SSB Goku was stronger than Beyond Blue Vegeta?

If this wasn't your point, then Whis > Beerus > Beyond Blue Vegeta (full power) > GoD Toppo > Beyond Blue Vegeta (initial) = Kaioken Goku > Goku Blue

From there, it's obvious that Whis was holding back.

SSB Kaioken Goku is as strong as him and Beyond Blue Vegeta thrashed God Toppo but needed a suicide move to overcome the Destruction energy. Kaioken Goku would need to do something similar to overcome the Destruction energy.

SSB Kaioken Goku was on the same level as Beyond Blue Vegeta before the latter powered up through resolve. And before this power-up, Toppo was beating up Vegeta.

You already misread my posts, so this isn't going anywhere. I'm done. I already know this is just going to be me constantly correcting you. And most of your points are going to be obscure at best and are just going to leave me scratching my head wondering how anyone would even come to such a conclusion, like your Jiren and Zeno comparison.

You sure have a lot of nerve for someone who lacks common sense.