Kaioshin Strength

[Power Level Guy]

Kaioshin was stated to be much more powerful than Piccolo and isn't really contradicted anywhere.

The statement is not based on ki sensing it’s based on the deity of Kaioshin, so it was never a legit power statement to begin with.

It’s contradicted by power placements for both parties.

Piccolo is at least somewhat relevant to the Base Saiyans, Kaioshin is completely irrelevant.

 

[SSJ2]

He's depicted as being terribly weak, not even sure if he could turn Super Saiyan. I'd say he's clearly depicted as weaker than Gohan from the Buu Saga.

Zeta Gohan would be peak Gohan. He doesn't look anywhere as capable as he was there.

I'd argue that anything weaker than his Ultimate self would be portraying Gohan as weak. By Super's standards he would be weak even at his best in the Boo arc.

 

[Power Level Guy]

I'd argue that anything weaker than his Ultimate self would be portraying Gohan as weak. By Super's standards he would be weak even at his best in the Boo arc.

Ok well there’s levels to weak. RoF Gohan is portrayed to be tremendously weak. Do you think he’s stronger than Buu Saga Gohan?

Also that’s simply not true. Ultimate Gohans power is still respected all the way into ToP according to the manga.

Ultimate Gohan is probably about as strong as Frost, who’s really strong.

 

[Kyo]

I could beat Kaioshin’s ass

 

[Papasmurf]

I could beat Kaioshin’s ass

 

[SSJ2]

Ok well there’s levels to weak. RoF Gohan is portrayed to be tremendously weak. Do you think he’s stronger than Buu Saga Gohan?

Also that’s simply not true. Ultimate Gohans power is still respected all the way into ToP according to the manga.

Ultimate Gohan is probably about as strong as Frost, who’s really strong.

Yeah, I don't see why he can't be stronger than Boo arc Gohan. Even Z Sword Gohan is trash compared to Gohan's peak in Z.

And I'm referring to Ultimate Gohan in the Boo arc, not in Super. Boo arc Ultimate Gohan was fodder as soon as Super began.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Yeah, I don't see why he can't be stronger than Boo arc Gohan. Even Z Sword Gohan is trash compared to Gohan's peak in Z.

This Gohan doesn't have his Ultimate form. It's just his Base power. Last we saw his peak Base power was his Post Zeta self.

He's undoubtedly lost a ton of power.

If Base Gohan is 100, how strong is Base RoF Gohan in your opinion?

 

[SSJ2]

This Gohan doesn't have his Ultimate form. It's just his Base power. Last we saw his peak Base power was his Post Zeta self.

He's undoubtedly lost a ton of power.

If Base Gohan is 100, how strong is Base RoF Gohan in your opinion?

Is Ultimate actually treated as a form in Super? Gohan doesn't seem to treat it as such, it seems to just be his Base power. I don't think it's a multiplier that can be given out like a transformation. Gohan only needs to be weaker than his Boo arc self in order to be portrayed as weak. Also:

Ch. 39, pg. 7.1-2
Piccolo: “That’s Gohan for you. Regaining his sense of battle was all he could do in that brief period of training, but he’s managed to grow stronger than ever during this fight.”
Krillin: “Whoa… Talk about innate talent… Makes you wonder if he could get stronger than Goku if he quit his day job and devoted himself to training!!”

Gohan at the beginning of the ToP is said to have only regained his battle sense as opposed to his power, meaning he should be equal to how he was in RoF. He wasn't portrayed as being his beginning of Boo arc Base self in the ToP.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Is Ultimate actually treated as a form in Super?

Indeed.

 

[SSJ2]

Indeed.

Gohan himself considers it his regular state though.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Gohan himself considers it his regular state though.

Back in the Buu Saga. He no longer thinks like that. Why do you suppose he went Super Saiyan in the first place to fight Shisami?

 

[SSJ2]

Back in the Buu Saga. He no longer thinks like that. Why do you suppose he went Super Saiyan in the first place to fight Shisami?

He absolutely thinks the same way.

Ch. 39, pg. 6.1-6
Context: Kefla and Gohan are fighting and she asks why he won’t use Super Saiyan
Gohan: “I don’t do that anymore. No need to, really.”
[ ]
Kefla: “No need to turn Super Saiyan? Why’s that?”
Gohan: “I choose to keep evolving as a human, not a Saiyan. I’m not relying on my Saiyan blood anymore.”

He considers Ultimate to be an extension of his regular power. Super Saiyan was the best he could do against Shisami at the time.

 

[Power Level Guy]

He considers Ultimate to be an extension of his regular power. Super Saiyan was the best he could do against Shisami at the time.

Exactly. So his Ultimate form required effort to bring back out. As well as in Super Hero, he can't auto engage Ultimate.

Showing that there are multiple states.

Point being, Gohan cannot access his Ultimate power at RoF and is relegated to a measly base power untrained for like 5 years.

 

[Dagon]

Tagoma was as strong as Gohan at his best, stated by Gohan. Base Gohan could not manage anything against Tagoma and had to use Super Saiyan to win. This only makes sense if Tagoma is as strong as Z-Sword base Gohan. In the lead-up to the ToP Piccolo said Gohan hadn't used the ultimate power since the Buu arc.

 

[Power Level Guy]

In the lead-up to the ToP Piccolo said Gohan hadn't used the ultimate power since the Buu arc.

Quote? He certainly used it against Beerus.

 

[Dagon]

Quote? He certainly used it against Beerus.

In Piccolo'a pep talk to get Gohan to restore his Ultimate form, Piccolo said "A power you haven't used since Buu..." while showing a flashback(with DBZ Kai footage) to the Super Buu fight. It may depend on the subtitles.

 

[Father]

Wasn’t Gohan in base and drunk
in the anime version? Lol

 

[Power Level Guy]

Wasn’t Gohan in base and drunk
in the anime version? Lol

Piccolo was shocked that Gohan was taken out so easily, establishing himself as superior to Base Gotenks and Majin Buu. He's portrayed in the same outfit as he had on in the Buu Saga and there's no reason to assume anything other than Ultimate power.

 

[Power Level Guy]

@SSJ2

Brother you are being biased. You are nerfing the Base Saiyans man. We gotta accept the facts here, c'mon now. If you want to write your own story, that's fine, but the reality is, Piccolo is trash. We all hate it. It shouldn't be that way, but let's not give in to what should have been or what could have been. It is what it is.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Cell Games base Saiyans are Android level. There’s no putting Boo Saga Base Saiyans multiple times above Androids just because Vegeta said so.

Ultimate is sort of between a form and a regular state. Gohan can turn it on and off, but there’s no physical change. I mean there’s the bang and those little details, but that’s just for the audience to pick the difference.