Kibito VS 100% Freeza

[ahill1]

I wouldn't refute the Zamasu fight only because Kibito was much weaker in Z. For one thing, other fights where there was a massive gap usually have someone stating the stronger foe is holding back, or doing a power up later and Zamasu also complimented Kibito's skills which I highly doubt he would if he were below Boo arc base Goku. His training gains are ridiculous, but by that logic we should also disregard Vegeta's feats against Beerus and Black in SSJ2

So you think Kibito has gotten way stronger in the meantime?

 

[Papasmurf]

Isn't much crazier than Piccolo competing with Frost despite getting raped by Freeza's first form pre-U6 tbh.

 

[ahill1]

Yeah, I can see that. Btw, could someone post East Kaioshin's exact statement to Zamasu? I am thinking he said something like "Kaioshin's skillz don't even compare to his ones" or something along those lines.

 

[Papasmurf]

Viz: He must be one of the most skilled fighters, even including all of the Lord of Lords across the universes.

Japanese was similar, saying he was top-class even among all Kaioshin iirc. So manga Zamasu >> South Kaioshin most likely.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Whilst I can understand that line of thinking, would you say there's anything to suggest Kibito is that high (not counting DBS)? After all, the Z-Sword scene makes it clear the implication of him rivalling Base Gohan that the Daizenshuu goes with isn't true and Goku's comment of him being "no average joe" doesn't say much.
Only thing I can think of to solidly vouch for him is his constant comments of believing no mortal could achieve such a power on various instances regarding Gohan, which would seem somewhat redundant if he weren't at least somewhat relevant to his master. I guess you could also use his flight speed being on par with Gohan as an indication of him not being complete trash, though flight speed feats are very inconsistent in the Boo Arc (eg. Gohan finding the Kinto'Un a somewhat relevant benchmark, SSJ Gotenks seeming to have greater flight speed than Gohan Boo, etc.)

There is that argument i posted before about him thinking mortals are , what makes him look like a moron if he's weaker than the strongest mortal (Not counting the unknown Saiyans, of course).

The flight speed point indeed is trash as Gurdo could keep up with the Ginyus as well.

 

[Animelover5487]

I wouldn't refute the Zamasu fight only because Kibito was much weaker in Z. For one thing, other fights where there was a massive gap usually have someone stating the stronger foe is holding back, or doing a power up later and Zamasu also complimented Kibito's skills which I highly doubt he would if he were below Boo arc base Goku. His training gains are ridiculous, but by that logic we should also disregard Vegeta's feats against Beerus and Black in SSJ2

Zamasu had to have been holding back. Kibito is weaker than Shin and Shin is stated to be the weakest Kaioshin in U7. Zamasu is stronger than all of the Kaioshin combined.

 

[Papasmurf]

I wouldn't refute the Zamasu fight only because Kibito was much weaker in Z. For one thing, other fights where there was a massive gap usually have someone stating the stronger foe is holding back, or doing a power up later and Zamasu also complimented Kibito's skills which I highly doubt he would if he were below Boo arc base Goku. His training gains are ridiculous, but by that logic we should also disregard Vegeta's feats against Beerus and Black in SSJ2

Zamasu had to have been holding back. Kibito is weaker than Shin and Shin is stated to be the weakest Kaioshin in U7. Zamasu is stronger than all of the Kaioshin combined.

Kibito could've just made some gains though, seeing as Piccolo also inexplicably got stronger than any Boo arc SSJ in U6 despite being far below their level prior to that. Zamasu complimenting the Kaioshins of U7 also makes no sense if Kibito were the weakest shinjin out of all the trainee supreme fags.

 

[p123]

CC's points are solid.

 

[Victorious]

Going by the Zeta sword he's far below base Gohan. I would hope he would be stronger than Freeza though

 

[p123]

It does seem funny that Kaioshin decides to use the other Kaioshins being able to beat Freeza as some hallmark for power. He could have easily said, Kibito could destroy Freeza, let alone the greatly superior Kaioshins who were greater than me.

I think the fanbase has always had a hard time believing Pocus, Yakon and such can beat Freeza. I don't find it likely from a story telling standpoint.

Freeza dominated the universe, Dabura at least has a real case. He's a fucking Demon King of another universe. But regular bums being Freeza's God? No...

 

[Victorious]

Pocus could be a real bum. I mean he made a big deal about 10x gravity. Something Namek Goku at 90,000 after his 100x gravity training would laugh off.


Freeza dominated the universe....but for a very short period of time P123. Freeza is way less than a thousand years old...there's no reason to think he wouldnt get wrecked by the old Legendary Super Saiyans that existed thousdand of years before his time.


Buu on the other hand is millions or perhaps even billions of years old. Not only that but he can cross dimensions. And Freeza was not a being [at least before DB Super] that The gods gave a damn about. He was only a Galactic threat..not a threat to all reality like Majin Buu. The Kaioshins would look at Freeza's reigh like we would look at a 5 year old bully in kindergarten's reighn as adults. Trivial.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I think the fanbase has always had a hard time believing Pocus, Yakon and such can beat Freeza. I don't find it likely from a story telling standpoint.

Freeza dominated the universe, Dabura at least has a real case. He's a fucking Demon King of another universe. But regular bums being Freeza's God? No...

I wouldn't necessarily say Pui Pui and Yakon > Freeza seems wrong from a story perspective, at least not in terms of Dragon Ball's track record. After all, all the arcs from the 22nd TB and onwards with the exception of this one started off with the previous top tier being made to look like a joke by a new character, and a constant within each arc is a previous main antagonist being trash compared to even jobber enemies in 1-2 arcs' time. Taopaipai, the world's greatest assassin with a career spanning two decades is trash to any of Daimao's children other than perhaps Piano. The great Daimao who conquered the world and brought the cast to the brink of defeat is a minuscule fraction of a Saibaiman or regular Freeza Soldier's power. Vegeta from the Saiyan Arc, who kept getting up from every new trump card that got sent his way, can't match the Artificial Human even if he were 10,000x stronger...

If anything, Pui Pui and Yakon being above Freeza seems pretty consistent with Toriyama's constant increase of scale and how previous big bads stack up 1-2 arcs after their own.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Kibito constantly talks-down those ningens, I think he'd be stupid if he couldn't even defeat Freeza. Granted Freeza at one point was the strongest ningen ever, but Kibito should be aware of that.

 

[p123]

Good points CC, but I meant from a fanbase point of view.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Even from a fanbase perspective, I see that pattern as holding up pretty well. After all, isn't finding patterns and creating chains of one kind or another what most fans tend to do? Moreso than Toriyama, at least.

That, and the fanbase point of view can be anywhere from dubious in consistency to entirely fuelled by personal bias. After all, most of the evidence would point to the kids being relevant to Gohan and not being light years behind their fathers, yet a sizeable portion of the fanbase find them being far stronger than Freeza even as SSJs a tough pill to swallow, nevermind the kids VS #18 debate.

 

[p123]

Well he did lose his marbles in the Buu Saga. But yea, Toriyama has always shitted on what he built up previously. That's the Shonen way in general right?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

That's the Shonen way in general right?

Depends, really. For the standard Shonen it is, but there are noticeable exceptions of past characters being treat in high regard due to either a lack of gigantic power inflation (eg. Fullmetal Alchemist and Rurouni Kenshin, as well as Hokuto no Ken to some extent) or inventing power systems complex enough to make power creep and character legacies not a large problem (eg. Hunter X Hunter and JoJo's Bizarre Adventure).

 

[p123]

If I could rewrite the story, Cell should have came first, before Freeza. And the story should have ended at Freeza. You let Vegeta die, Goku and Freeza die, it's Piccolo and Gohan riding into the sunset.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

If I could rewrite the story, Cell should have came first, before Freeza. And the story should have ended at Freeza. You let Vegeta die, Goku and Freeza die, it's Piccolo and Gohan riding into the sunset.

I'd find cutting Cell out in general would've made things work better. If you want to keep the Artificial Humans in, find a way for Goku to die permanently on Namek so that the new threat doesn't necessarily have to surpass Freeza and Gohan has a far more gradual path to taking his father's mantle.

Speaking of which, you'd probably be interested in this thread: http://www.dbzeta.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=11659

 

[p123]

Why? Cell is awesome. It's the natural progression of Earth's fight against evil isn't it? Goku and Co. have conquered the greatest threat to Earth ever and have come out victorious. Now, an evil scientist combines Earth's greatest fighters and out comes this super powerful being who is the best at everything on a worldly level. That's natural progression.

We'd miss out on Gohan vs Cell though and that shit was epic as fuck. I thought the Androids > Freeza was absolute hogwash. I'll check it out. Majin Buu shit is a universal, inter dimensional, greatest of all times kind of threat. It's not a bad progression either.