Kibitoshin vs Dabra/Super Perfect Cell

[GokhanDBZfan]

Cell wasn't rivaling Gohan in power.

The same Cell couldn't instantly overpower 50% Gohan's Kamehameha despite his Kamehameha having more charge time.
Gohan couldn't properly protect himself from that blast, because he didn't expect Cell to have powered up much and that's why it damaged him so much.

Kibitoshin is clumsy and isn't even a proper fighter.
That's why EK didn't want him to fight Buutenks along with Goku.

 

[Lord Brofist]

Yes he was rivaling him. Yes he was instantly overpowering him in the duel. Gohan couldn't hold on, the moment it started, he was outright stated to be getting pushed back. Cell was laughing at him the whole time with a huge grin on his face and absolutely no strain on him.

Gohan meanwhile has veins popping all over him, sweat pouring down his face and is quite literally just a few pages away from getting blown away until Vegeta steps in. Gohan needs to use his full power to defeat Cell, Goku states that Gohan needs to release everything to win.

Prior to that, the poor kid was getting snot kicked out of him by attacks that weren't even meant for him in the first place. He completely underestimates Cell (and admits to it) and gets his ki, arm and willpower broken.

FP Cell could barely budge Gohan's head with his strongest punch. Zenkai Perfect Cell throws one blast and practically shatters Gohan. The same Gohan who thought he was going to rip Cell apart with his bare hands got his ass handed to him in a fight where Cell's entire focus was on Vegeta.

You were reading the same fight right? You do realize Cell wasn't rivaling 50% Gohan, he was about to annihilate him.

Chapter: 414 (DBZ 220), P14.2
Context: after getting hit by Cell’s attack while saving Vegeta
Gohan: “Cell’s power has gone up more than I thought…â€￾

Gohan outright admits he underestimated Cell, even Cell didn't try to act as arrogant upon his return. Now look what happened. Cell's threatening to blow up the solar system and Gohan's telling the guy to just kill him, having literally given up all hope.

Chapter: 415 (DBZ 221), P10.2
Context: after Gohan fires his Kamehameha
Piccolo: “It no use…! Gohan’s ki is weaker after all…â€￾

This is after his confidence has been built back up. Toriyama notes that ki is made up of different parts such as energy, courage and will power. Despite the fact that Gohan's courage and what not has been built right back up, he's still far weaker than Cell and can't do anything.

Goku: “Go strike with an all-out Kamehameha, like Cell! If you do that, you’ll definitely win! Absolutely!â€￾

Chapter: 416 (DBZ 222), P7.2, P8.1-2
Context: as Gohan and Cell’s Kamehamehas clash
Goku: “Hang on! Hang on, Gohan! You ain’t putting out all your power yet! Make your power explode!â€￾
Gohan: “I’m doing it at full force…! Any more than this is…â€￾
Goku: “Somewhere in your mind you’re thinking of the damage to the Earth! Don’t worry about it! We’ll undo the damage with the dragonballs!â€￾

Even on this part above, Gohan believes he's using his full power and its just that somewhere, almost on a subconscious level he's holding back. Yet Cell is still kicking his ass. It's made very clear that if Gohan wants to win, he literally needs to go all out and at least use his full natural power power to win if not outright dig into his deep bag of potential and rage and bring out even more power.

You think Cell doesn't rival SSj2 Kid Gohan? Because all the evidence points otherwise.

And you think Dabura who is barely shown to be above a far weaker SSJ Gohan (Yes, Super Saiyan considering he shows no signs of any SSJ2 characteristics) rivals that same Cell.

 

[SSJ2]

If Boo was serious, he would've one shotted Vegeta. So I think comparing SSJ2 Vegeta to Kibitoshin is an unfair comparison.

I think that part's somewhat debatable. Whilst gap consistency would make such apparent, Vegeta has demonstrated durability feats far beyond his power on many occasions, most notably the battle against the Zet-Senshi.

While I can absolutely agree with that, Vegeta was never up against a force that was roughly 4x his own power (unless you count the Genki Dama which did not pierce him).

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Vegeta always get his ass kicked and he just never quit.

 

[GokhanDBZfan]

[No message]

 

[LordBeefdip]

I agree with Gokhan actually.

SPC definitely could have eventually overpowered 50% SSj2 Gohan. But given how Gohan's SSj2 is used as the benchmark for SSj2 Goku and SSj2 Majin Vegeta while Cell is relegated to being compared to a fodder tier SSj2 character, pretty obvious that their was some gap between SSj2 Kid Gohan and Super Perfect Cell.

Even if it wasn't intended at the Cell games, it was certainly retconned during the Buu saga.

Also. I don't see the logic in saying that Goku was comparing Dabura to a suppressed Perfect Cell. I could get and still disagree with a comparison t0 100% PC, but to a suppressed version?

What point is their saying that someone is stronger than a previous opponent, but only be talking about that opponent when they weren't at full power? Takes all purpose away from the comparison. Why would Goku say it like that if he meant Suppressed Cell? It would have made far more sense to compare Dabura to either his own Cell Games MSSj, or that of Gohan. Or at least note that he was talking about Cell before he powered up.

To be honest, when a character is referenced for comparison ,it only makes sense to use their power at it's absolute peak.

Which would be Super Perfect Cell. You could argue Goku couldn't sense Cell, but he sure as hell could sense King Kai from Earth, so nothing would stop him front sensing a much stronger SSj2 level person from Otherworld. Especially since he made the statement that Gohan could win if he used all his power. How could he say that unless he was sensing something?

Further, even we go with the logic that Goku wasn't there....Vegeta was, and he would know exactly how strong SPC was. Yet he doesn't even give a hint that he disagrees with Goku comparing Dabura to Cell. If Dabura wasn't in SPC's realm, I'd imagine he would have called Goku out on it.

 

[Lord Brofist]

You think Cell's not rivaling because he didn't just instantly blow Gohan back? Do note that Gohan is no longer at 50% anymore. His father has told him to unleash an all out Kamehameha like Cell. For Gohan, he is literally giving everything he has right now and its that somewhere in his mind, he's holding back to some unknown degree because of his fear of harming the Earth.

And that level, to whatever Gohan is putting out right now (Which as I say again, Gohan feels his his full power at the time) is something that Cell is easily countering and pushing back. The entire thing is meant to show the stress and effort Gohan has to put in. It's not like the plots going to have Cell blow Gohan away the moment the fight starts, though that's nearly what happens in the end.

Right now, before Gohan goes all out the gap is pretty much:

Zenkai Cell>>SSJ2 Kid Gohan (Holding back)>>50% SSJ2 Kid Gohan.

I mean let's just take 50% Gohan and compare him to the Gohan during the beam duel. The latter of which has gotten his confidence and willpower restored by his father and is told by Goku to go all out. Gohan believes he is going all out but as we know he'd holding back on what appears to be a subconscious level.

Right now the Gohan during the beam duel is even stronger than 50% Gohan and yet Cell is still crushing him with absolute ease and its clear he's just a moment from ending it all until Vegeta comes. Gohan's only going to have so much room to move around if he wants to be stronger.

I mean you have all these lines and indications in the manga that shows that even if Gohan is ultimately stronger, Cell is a very real threat to him that Gohan can't risk to hold back on or underestimate because, doing so nearly cost him his life.

The thing is, there's no reason for Toriyama to have Cell increase his power if he was still vastly weaker than Gohan. He might as well just have Cell throw a blast at Vegeta, have Gohan take the hit unguarded and then drop himself down to Cell's level.

I mean the entire thing is to essentially to show that Cell has greatly increased his power. Gohan as we know even admits to underestimating Cell. It shows that now, Gohan can't screw around or act cocky anymore because this time, Cell now has the power to kill him.
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Now on to the Dabura part. The manga clealry shows Gohan as a Super Saiyan. Not only does he not have the consistent classical lightning around him that is noted with all SSJ2 characters, but even his aura doesn't match. In the manga, the SSj2 aura is very jagged and spiky with I believe a thick outline.

In contrast, the aura that Gohan has is a very timid and wave like.

The manga seems to make the implication also that Gohan just can't get into his SSj2 powers anymore, despite what may have happened at the Budokai.

Considering that we see SSJ2s both before and after the fight and they all have the same characteristics, Gohan shows none of them.

Goku made the notion that Dabura would've been quite a threat 7 years ago and compared him to Cell. Considering that Dabura is again struggling with a very weak SSJ Gohan, Goku could easily be talking about the Cell he fought and makes no later on that Dabura with magic is even stronger than he thought.

And that would make Dabura a threat. Even the Cell who fought Goku was still pretty much the second strongest being besides Gohan. But its Gohan that matter's most, he's showing absolutely no sign of the SSJ2 transformation and again the manga implies that because of his lack of anger, he somehow can't.

 

[Pyro]

Vegeta always get his ass kicked and he just never quit.

He quit against Freeza. He even cried.

 

[GokhanDBZfan]

Regardless of how strong Cell truly was, it's entirely possible AT retconned his strength like with Freeza.
It simply makes no sense to talk about a weaker form of Cell to show Saiyans' progress.
Either way, Kibitoshin should win this, since he is way stronger than Kaioshin and Kaioshin could freeze SSJ2 Adult Gohan.

 

[Lord Brofist]

When do Cell and Freeza ever get retconed?

I don't know what's so hard to understand. Cell's powers are both acknowledged by Gohan as being strong and forces Gohan to go all out against him to win. He's shown to be strong enough to greatly harm Gohan both physically and mentally and his defeat requires a distraction along with said Gohan going all out against him. His entire appearance, with his new aura is that he's now gotten on a level near Gohan's own. Cell says that the fight won't be as easy for Gohan as it was last time...and he was right.

All you got to do is put things together and anyone else would see that Cell and Gohan are pretty much very close in power.