Keedounan said:
Having no intention to kill doesn't always imply holding back, especiallt when the opponent can take it. Besides, what makes you think the kids intended to kill them?
It doesn't mean that you'll be always holding back, however it means you won't have the freedom to hit the opponent with whatever amount it pleases you. Cutting loose can't be done as freely, and so a proper adaptation to one's power has to be made.
1)Not only there are good reasons to believe #18 was at full power, but she also considers the kids to have outrageous power, whereas she called Vegeta "nothing special", "weak" and "helpless".
The reasons for her being at full power are quickly contradicted once she sees them turning into SSJs and still doesn't lose her composure, apparently only understanding their outrageous power once they fight as SSJs.
Her difference of addressing to Trunks and Vegeta can pertain more to her standards before the fight. While her data of Vegeta was outdated, he was still given as a seasoned warrior and posed as a powerful enemy for Goku. He reaching that level might not have seen as so much off the mark to her. She still compliments him, but once the comparison is limited to them androids, Vegeta is basically nothing special. As for Trunks, taking her off guard with his strength when she had lowers standards for him might be a motive that elevated her surprise and compliments in relation to Vegeta.
Similarly, Goku calls Yamcha in the 22nd Budokai "amazing" and yet considers very little of Tambourine, calling his attack "pathetic", whereas we know Tambourine can defeat someone given as Yamcha's equal (Kuririn). So the context and the standards the characters have are still important when taking into account how they express themselves.
2)How were Gohan or Vegeta off-guard? They were fighting the kids on plain sight, while actively blocking their blows.
Catching off guard doesn't necessitate one of the warriors to be looking away or to be oblivious at their contender. You can still be caught off guard even when you are looking at your opponent and mounting a full defensive combo. If Vegeta didn't expect this much from Trunks, then he still was taken off guard by Trunks' powers.
To top it off, we have seen how easily Vegeta dodged Zarbon's kicks when the gap between their power amounted to 10%. He easily dodges his kicks in a more impressive fashion than against Kid Trunks, so if we were to take the feats at face value, kid Trunks should be more than 90% relevant in comparison to Vegeta's powers. Yet we know that Vegeta holds a sizeable advantage over Gohan who, no matter how tou high ball the kids, is still above kid Trunks. Therefore, there's clearly something "else" to this feat Vegeta performed, in which his performance was likely hampered by the lack of intel on Trunks' agility.
But you have no evidence of it, right?
It's easily inferable and can serve as an explanation. He still dodged Goku's punch and kicked him in the gut. The Cell Juniors attacked Goten and Trunks who barely defended their attacks. Also pointing out that the Cell Juniors might share Cell's mentality of having fun in a battle. Cell stated the most fun fight is the one where there isn't a sizeable difference between the combatant's power... it's arguable the Cell Juniors inherited some of his traits and didn't want to end it as quick as possible.
Immediately afterwards, 17 adjusted to Goku turning from base to SSJ2. After he dodged a hit, he dashed forwards to headbutt him, to great effect. Then he pressured SSJ3 Goku.
Which isn't relevant because the fight against the Cell Juniors lasted for one panel. I used the 17's fight as an example of one that lasted for more than one panel and no adjustment was made. The adjusting to Goku's power occurred after they had already exchanged some blows and tested the waters.
Kid Boo adjusted his power just enough to punch Mister Satan. Then enough to dodge Boo's blast.
I'd say that adjusting to a level of someone who's piss weak and then hitting this someone with a gentle tap is easier than quickly adjusting to the level of someone who's in the hundreds of millions and hitting enough to KO this someone. Plus the evidence I posted above, to which is feasable that the Cell Juniors also enjoyed a fight in which their advantage would be mildly perceptible.
So they've gone from being incapable of knocking out Base Trunks to putting the two kids on defensive? As SSJs? Sounds like they could adjust just fine, doesn't it? Yet, they somehow still didn't manage to stomp them despite the gigantic power gap you're suggesting.
I'd just point out that knocking out someone is pretty inconsistent in this series, as kid Trunks wasn't KO'd when being hit by Super Boo in the Room of Time. Even if you point that out to suppression, I can also easily say that it speaks to the inconsistency of KO'ing someone. Even as far as the Freeza saga, base Goku took on many hits from final form Freeza using 50% of his power with no Kaioken on and was still kicking. Future Cell also took on a punch from future Trunks and survived despite the gap being humongous and the list goes on.
Oh really? Smiling means they weren't exerting their fullest level of effort? How about SSJ Gohan or Vegeta, then? Were they using their fullest levels of efforts?
Among those fights, only the Gohan vs Goten, the second, most intense sparring session holds up, as the first Gohan vs Goten one consisted of both being far from full power and the Vegeta vs Trunks one meets the problems specified above. And I'd be taking that fight for what it was if there weren't other piece of evidence pointing out to Gohan still been holding back, like the statement displayed on this thread. Flaring up an aura and showing sign of effort isn't an end all indication of someone being at full power, either, so I'm fine with accomodating the level Gohan was using to later evidences.
Seems like the Cell Juniors adjusted fine, since they've gone from punching off a Base Saiyan to fighting off a Super Saiyan.
Or being KO'ed just doesn't mean that much, as exemplified above.
They've shown enough maturity to keep themselves from risking the lives of the audience. When Trunks fired his blast at Goten, he easily deviated its trajectory towards the sky. When they've seen Goten doesn't master his Kamehameha, they agreed to keep fighting without ki blasts, again showing maturity. The blast fired by Trunks was carefully done to avoid hitting anyone (even the collateral damage was non-existant) and they even made sure to hold back to avoid seriously hurting 18. Again, showing maturity and care about what they were doing.
Add to that the fact they also have loved ones to care about among the audience, and 18 had zero reasons to worry about the bystanders. Nor did she ever. It's a narrative you've made up for no other reason than downplaying the kids. Pure conjecture. Especially when considering her daughter was here.
Fair enough points. But still, the kids have shown themselves to be prone to some reckless behavior when mindlessly blasting out Super Boo until Piccolo pointed out how that wouldn't be a wise thing to do. Plus, we still saw that Trunks turned a blind eye to the rule he came up with when the fight got rough to his side, so it's fair to say that there's still some level of immaturity when their chances of winning are at play, which 18 could have nlticed. Adds to that a power in the hundreds millions, and it's fair to see #18 thinking she should promptly end up the fight and not engage into it.
Considering the ki blast was clearly fired to limit the collateral damage, it sounds like a weak excuse.
Damage to #18. She saw how they were really outrageously strong by that and decided to end it up right there. The "it's too dangerous" isn't specified as being a threat to herself. Although I acknowledge the points you raised above, even if they were still a threat to her chances of winning and she decided because of it to end the battle, Trunks stated that they'd be still at a disadvantage in the costume if they attempted to fight her. And although it was a pretty restrictive costume, Trunks still was perfectly capable of throwing a punch with it. Heck, Roshi eliminated Yamcha in the 21st Budokai with a handwave when the gap wasn't even multifold, and yet Trunks treats the chi blast like their way to go, and if he were like Gohan's level strength, I'm sure other alternatives like the handwave or the "wind punch" Goku employed against Chi Chi in the 23rd Budokai when their difference was roughly 3x (way less accounting for the fact that Goku was wearing weighted clothes) would stand out as better ones for less collateral damage. So although I could agree that the "as best as my son" might be stretching things a little going by this logic, them being times and times above #18 doesn't jive well with the above either.
So they were both holding back.
Yeah, but no way to pinpoint the exact amount each one was holding back or whether they were by the same amount. Although Goten does look pretty relaxed and casual as SSJ, I'd argue that Gohan can control its power usage better after mastering it in the Room.
So even though you have an undisputable evidence in front of you, you'll still insist that SSJ Trunks was Future Trunks pre-RoSaT just because Vegeta said so? You're frankly unbelievable.
I haven't once attempted to condescend in this debate, so there's no reason for sly remarks like "you are frankly unbelievable". I'd appreciate keeping this civil.
I agree that Vegeta's statement might come strange with all that was displayed in the Boo saga. But since we got no 100% assuredly statement that Gohan was going at it with 100% of his strength, I see no problem to apply Vegeta's statement as an establishment to the level Gohan was using when fighting Goten. Even if they were still a threat to #18 which I agree couldn't be possible if he were equal to pre Room Trunks, them being at #18's level or at most some not significant tiers above would be the maximum I'd go given the logic applied above.
Freeza's statement isn't completely analogous to this as we have got numbers that 100% place Vegeta and Piccolo as far above Ginyu, so it's easy to discard that statement as dubious. With this though, when we have seen characters flaring up an aura and using effort even when not at 100%, it isn't an end be all evidence.
Except it is dubious and absolutely not left to interpretation. I can't believe we're still discussing it despite the fact you've admitted that everything was showing Gohan was fighting seriously.
Everything regarding the fight per se... later statements suggest that it was still a suppressed, not full power representation of his strength. To exemplify, (I saw someone pointing it out here, so I borrow the example), the 22nd Budokai, everything points towards Roshi fighting all out against Tenshinhan, with him using effort, sweating and so on. The fight itself doesn't show us that he was still holding back, yet we still have a statement from Tenshinhan after the fight informing us that he was, so we apply that to the fight. Although you could say there isn't someone saying "Gohan held back against Goten" in clear terms as the example, this Vegeta statement or Trunks' behavior after turning into a SSJ treating chi blasts as they way to go against someone that'd be many and many times weaker than them if we took that sparring session at face value, qualify as evidence to me, enough so to put a dent on the "Gohan was at 100%".
While that might be true, Freeza had what, a trickle of sweat? In their second session, Gohan was sweating profusely, had his SSJ aura up, and clenching his teeth. Does it look like someone who's heavily holding back?
It's true that he wasn't straining as hard. But I see ki as basically layers in the DB world. For example, if someone chooses to use 20% of his total chi and keep the remaining slumbbering into his body, he'd strain as hard as someone that was as strong as what amounts to 20% of his strength, since the remaining is basically still dormant, in the inside, not being accessed. So I don't personally see a problem with Gohan straining as hard even if he were using a low percentage of his power.
Including the part about him being slightly blown back?
I don't see why not. It's not like there's a specific rule regarding a character having to be weaker than the other one if he gets blown back by his power up. It isn't a quantitative feat. Although not a completely analogous instance, we saw how taken aback by base Vegeta's power Kaioshin was once Vegeta destroyed Pocus... and this is coming from a guy way stronger than Piccolo and who could hold ssj2 Gohan. So it seems significantly stronger characters can be taken aback, blown away when they are caught off guard by another party's power.