Kid Trunks = future Trunks (before training)

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Kid Trunks is apparently as strong as the Future Trunks who fought the androids from the present and got his sword quickly blocked by 18. When all the warriors assembled at Bulma's house in the Toyotarou's manga, #17 asked Vegeta if it was okay to leave his island at his son's care and #17 answered as follows:

"You saw how strong my son was, right? Trunks may be a kid, but he's just as good".

The only Trunks #17 has seen is action is the one who got destroyed by him and #18. So Kid Trunks = future Trunks (before training in the time chamber).
 

Pyro

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Didn't 17 see what was going on inside Cell?
 

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Considering Kid Trunks could fight multiple Cell Juniors at the same time when he and Goten arrived to the island, he ought to be far stronger than that.
 

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Not only does every piece of evidence from the original manga go against it, such as Base Trunks fighting evenly with #18, a suppressed blast from his SSJ form shocking her or Vegeta needing actual effort to dodge Trunks' punches, but even the Super manga debunks this idea with Trunks fighting against multiple Cell Juniors. I'd take several feats and statements consistent with each other over one throwaway line from a work notable for its inconsistency.

Pyro said:
Didn't 17 see what was going on inside Cell?
He said he could hear what was going on, though that's about it.
Still, taking that into account, he'd hear Cell say that Trunks had surpassed his power, so at minimum that makes SSJ Kid Trunks = SSJ 3rd Grade Future Trunks
 

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Pyro said:
Didn't 17 see what was going on inside Cell?
Does Vegeta know it? That's what's relevant.

Keedounan said:
Considering Kid Trunks could fight multiple Cell Juniors at the same time when he and Goten arrived to the island, he ought to be far stronger than that.
That was only for one panel, so it doesn't mean much. Besides, Trunks and Goten were exerting real effort while the Cell Juniors were just laughing.

Captain Cadaver said:
Not only does every piece of evidence from the original manga go against it, such as Base Trunks fighting evenly with #18, a suppressed blast from his SSJ form shocking her or Vegeta needing actual effort to dodge Trunks' punches, but even the Super manga debunks this idea with Trunks fighting against multiple Cell Juniors. I'd take several feats and statements consistent with each other over one throwaway line from a work notable for its inconsistency. 
#18 was likely suppressed in their battle and the blast from Trunks likely took her off guard. Similarly, Vegeta wasn't expecting such performance from Trunks and was also likely taken off guard. One punch by Vegeta was already enough to make Trunks cry and end the little battle.
 

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Dragon Ball Fan said:
That was only for one panel, so it doesn't mean much. Besides, Trunks and Goten were exerting real effort while the Cell Juniors were just laughing.

Whether or not it was for one panel matters little, especially considering there is no timeframe. Even the likes of Vegeta, Trunks or (to a lesser extent) Piccolo from Cell Games could barely fight back. Everyone else was helplessly getting pummeled, even Goku (due to his low stamina). The fact that they could hold out so well against not one, but multiple Cell Juniors, is certainly meaningful.


Captain Cadaver said:
#18 was likely suppressed in their battle and the blast from Trunks likely took her off guard. Similarly, Vegeta wasn't expecting such performance from Trunks and was also likely taken off guard. One punch by Vegeta was already enough to make Trunks cry and end the little battle.

Even if your assumption that she was suppressed was true, the fact 18 was caught off-guard by the speed of the blast imediately contradicts the notion that Trunks could be at the same level as Future Trunks before RoSaT.

And that's not even getting into the fact 18 said the speed and destructive power of the blast were both incredible, then called the situation dangerous as soon as she suspected the kids had outrageous power. Keep in mind 18 previously took a blast from Vegeta in Androids Arc with little more than scratches.
 

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Dragon Ball Fan said:
That was only for one panel, so it doesn't mean much. Besides, Trunks and Goten were exerting real effort while the Cell Juniors were just laughing.
Irrelevant when by your standing of where Kid Trunks should be, even a single hit from a Cell Junior should KO him.

#18 was likely suppressed in their battle and the blast from Trunks likely took her off guard.
The "#18 was suppressed" angle has so many flaws it's surprising people still argue it.

Firstly, #18 quickly became aware Mighty Mask was no normal human. She also had no reason to extend the fight when her goal was to quickly get the prize money and nothing else, so she would've just started using the necessary effort to KO her opponent once she caught on to how strong they were if they really were so strong.
Secondly, Trunks = #18 is even confirmed in official material, with the Daizenshuu mentioning how he fought evenly with #18. Take into account this was also whilst in a costume he himself described as being highly debilitating to his fighting style. This also lines up with the Daizenshuu backing up the stance that Shin was scared of Yakon, with the former being able to oneshot Freeza and the latter being equal to Base Goku.

Similarly, Vegeta wasn't expecting such performance from Trunks and was also likely taken off guard. One punch by Vegeta was already enough to make Trunks cry and end the little battle.
Trunks was also not expecting his father to fight back and only came away with a slight bruise.
 

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Captain Cadaver said:
Irrelevant when by your standing of where Kid Trunks should be, even a single hit from a Cell Junior should KO him.
We have no way to know if those Cell Juniors were holding back or which extent of their power they were using. #17 trained them in order not to kill those poachers. Although it's clear they weren't using that ouny level as Goten and Trunks were having difficult fending off them, they can clearly control their power as to not kill far weaker enemies, so you'd have to prove they were going at full throttle when their expression doesn't indicate that at all.

Saying that one hit is enough to kill a Trunks from back then is also not a very strong point when ko'ing opponents is never consistent in the series. For example, Goku got back up from multiples blows from 50% Freeza even when not defending himself with the Kaioken. As another example, future Cell wasn't done in by one punch from future Trunks when the gap should be easily multifold by then.
Firstly, #18 quickly became aware Mighty Mask was no normal human. She also had no reason to extend the fight when her goal was to quickly get the prize money and nothing else, so she would've just started using the necessary effort to KO her opponent once she caught on to how strong they were if they really were so strong.
The fight didn't last for that long. All we saw was #18 with a bored expression when the kids were struggling to defend her blows. Even after it, she's shown curious about this unknown fighter. #18 likely increased her speed a little and knocked the kids into the ground. Then she noticed how strong they were. She could of be planning to increase her strength here and there.

More importantly, she still doesn't lose her cool when she sees how they increased their power with SSJ and sees only worried once they show a little of their power. Why'd she not be worried earlier and in a need to disqualify them if their base was already giving her problems? Clearly because she was far.from committing herself to the battle.
Trunks = #18 is even confirmed in official material, with the Daizenshuu mentioning how he fought evenly with #18
Well, that's a weird recollection as that clearly wasn't an even fight. And even if it was, referring to a fight in which #18 wasn't fighting to her fullest meant at most that they are = her suppressed state.
This also lines up with the Daizenshuu backing up the stance that Shin was scared of Yakon, with the former being able to oneshot Freeza and the latter being equal to Base Goku.
Kaioshin also mentioned that Yakon is a magical beast, so he might have been fearing the unpredictability of his magical powers. He also heard of him through rumors, apparently.
Trunks was also not expecting his father to fight back and only came away with a slight bruise.
Yeah, but characters underestimating the other's strength is a recurring theme in DB. Vegeta quite clearly underestimated his son. We also saw how Nappa got hit by far weaker characters in the Saiyajins saga when underestimating them.


Keedounan said:
Whether or not it was for one panel matters little, especially considering there is no timeframe. Even the likes of Vegeta, Trunks or (to a lesser extent) Piccolo from Cell Games could barely fight back. Everyone else was helplessly getting pummeled, even Goku (due to his low stamina). The fact that they could hold out so well against not one, but multiple Cell Juniors, is certainly meaningful
See above. One panel means little when there was barely a fight. We see the Cell Juniors laughing whereas Goten and Trunks were clearly on their toes, sweating and exerting effort. They were also instructed not to kill, so since we have a clear cut statement establishing kid Trunks was = androids saga Trunks, it makes sense they'd hold back to an amount necessary not to kill that level of power, only overpower it.
Even if your assumption that she was suppressed was true, the fact 18 was caught off-guard by the speed of the blast imediately contradicts the notion that Trunks could be at the same level as Future Trunks before RoSaT.
She was caught off guard, that is, not expecting that much power from them. Therefore, her trouble in dodging it is justifiable. Since they were kids and she saw how a grown up version of Trunks was nothing to her initially, it makes sense she'd be taken aback by their power, already on the realm of his adolescent counterpart.
 

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We have no way to know if those Cell Juniors were holding back or which extent of their power they were using. #17 trained them in order not to kill those poachers. Although it's clear they weren't using that ouny level as Goten and Trunks were having difficult fending off them, they can clearly control their power as to not kill far weaker enemies, so you'd have to prove they were going at full throttle when their expression doesn't indicate that at all.
Firstly, Goten and Trunks having difficulty in a 2 VS 7 situation is far from screaming "inferior to a Cell Junior."
Secondly, the fact that the Cell Juniors took them on as a group rather than one being enough to put them down acts as enough evidence for the Cell Juniors to be far from playing around.

Saying that one hit is enough to kill a Trunks from back then is also not a very strong point when ko'ing opponents is never consistent in the series.
That part is at least true, given how Base Trunks took a sucker punch from one prior. Sucker punches in general aren't ever treat as serious indicators, however, with Trunks also taking one from Boo; and the examples you gave were still ones of a fighter clearly dominating their opponent (with a similar gap between your placement of SSJ Kid Trunks and a Cell Junior in the Trunks VS Cell example, no less), yet dominating an opponent is far from what the Cell Juniors did to Trunks and Goten.

The fight didn't last for that long.
Irrelevant when if she was truly this superior to them, all she'd need is one hit at full power.

All we saw was #18 with a bored expression when the kids were struggling to defend her blows.
0259-004.png

You call this a bored expression?

Even after it, she's shown curious about this unknown fighter. #18 likely increased her speed a little and knocked the kids into the ground. Then she noticed how strong they were. She could of be planning to increase her strength here and there.
She was aware that Mighty Mask was fairly powerful to some degree as early as him oneshotting Kilah.

Chapter: 452 (DBZ 258), P12.2
Context: talking about the two disguised as Mighty Mask
No.18: “…That weird long-torso freak isn’t anyone ordinary…His small arms had surprisingly powerful punches.”

More importantly, she still doesn't lose her cool when she sees how they increased their power with SSJ
There was no need to. Even with Trunks having comparable strength, it's blatantly said by Trunks several times how difficult it is to fight in the costume as the main reason the duo were at a disadvantage.

and sees only worried once they show a little of their power.
So you agree that #18 was indeed shocked at their power and, thus, resorted to the Kienzan, which confirms Kid Trunks is far above Pre-Rosat Future Trunks?

And even if it was, referring to a fight in which #18 wasn't fighting to her fullest meant at most that they are = her suppressed state.
You do realise that applies every bit as much to Trunks, someone who could barely fight properly in the costume, don't you?

Kaioshin also mentioned that Yakon is a magical beast, so he might have been fearing the unpredictability of his magical powers. He also heard of him through rumors, apparently.
Shin referred to him by name as soon as he saw him, had clear knowledge of Yakon's ability to absorb light and is referred to by the Daizenshuu explicitly to be scared of him, not cautious. It's clear he had some personal experience in knowing how strong Yakon is.

Yeah, but characters underestimating the other's strength is a recurring theme in DB. Vegeta quite clearly underestimated his son. We also saw how Nappa got hit by far weaker characters in the Saiyajins saga when underestimating them.
Vegeta is consistently shown to be one of the more prepared fighters, so comparing his actions to Nappa's isn't exactly a strong standing.

She was caught off guard, that is, not expecting that much power from them. Therefore, her trouble in dodging it is justifiable. Since they were kids and she saw how a grown up version of Trunks was nothing to her initially, it makes sense she'd be taken aback by their power, already on the realm of his adolescent counterpart.
She referred to their heavily supressed ki blast as such:

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P12.4, P13.1
Context: after Trunks’ ki blast explodes
No.18: “Yo-you’ve got to be kidding…That energy bullet had absolutely incredible speed and destructive power…Co-could it be that those squirts have outrageous power?…This is dangerous! I’ve got to settle this fight soon!”

Compare that to how she viewed Vegeta's power during their fight:

Chapter: 353 (DBZ 159), P10.2-4, P11.1
Context: after continuing to fight No.18
Vegeta: “This is really starting to annoy me. You act as if nothing’s happened…”
No.18: “I’m surprised. To think that a flesh-and-blood human could be so good, even if you are an alien. Is this man called ‘Son Goku’ even stronger?”
Vegeta: “Don’t kid yourself. He may have temporarily slipped by me, but now things have returned to normal and I should be on top again.”
No.18: “What? So you’re nothing special. Either of you.”

Also, the Trunks VS #18 matter is only the tip of the iceburg when it comes to evidence supporting the kids being far stronger than you make them out to be, such as Gohan sweating profusely and putting forth genuine effort when sparring with Goten or Piccolo referring to them as Earth's last hope (before he learned about fusion, I might add).
 

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Dragon Ball Fan said:
See above. One panel means little when there was barely a fight. We see the Cell Juniors laughing whereas Goten and Trunks were clearly on their toes, sweating and exerting effort.

Repeating your exact same arguments generally does little to help you in a debate. Who's to say it was barely a fight? Do you have a timeframe? A reference that helps you to determinate how long is "barely a fight"? After all, what do you call an IRL fight that lasts 10 seconds? A fight.

Goten and Trunks being at disadvantage against seven Cell Juniors does little to take away from their performance. Future Trunks after a second session in the RoSaT could barely put up a fight against a single one of them. Future Trunks before RoSaT would have gotten his ass handed to him as easily as Goku (tired) and the Earthlings did.

They were also instructed not to kill

When they were instructed to actively hurt the Z-Fighters, they still showed just enough restraint to not kill the earthlings and Goku while still beating the crap out of them. Yet you're telling that to defend the island, they held all the way back to Trunks pre-RoSaT level just to keep themselves from killing the kids, even though such a power gap would be more than enough to take them out in one blow? If they had so little restraint, 17 wouldn't count on them to defend the island against poachers that are most commonly regular humans.


She was caught off guard, that is, not expecting that much power from them. Therefore, her trouble in dodging it is justifiable. Since they were kids and she saw how a grown up version of Trunks was nothing to her initially, it makes sense she'd be taken aback by their power, already on the realm of his adolescent counterpart.

She's not just taken aback, though. She outrights considers them a threat for her victory. Also, SSJ Trunks pre-RoSaT was nothing to her, initially or not. She blocked his sword so well that it broke, then she took him out in one hit.
 

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Captain Cadaver said:
Firstly, Goten and Trunks having difficulty in a 2 VS 7 situation is far from screaming "inferior to a Cell Junior."
Secondly, the fact that the Cell Juniors took them on as a group rather than one being enough to put them down acts as enough evidence for the Cell Juniors to be far from playing around.
It's far from saying they are on the same vicinity to them as well. A fight (can't even be called a fight, more like a scuffle) that lasts to one panel in which Goten and Trunks are seen in the losing end isn't enough to conclude they were Cell Juniors level.

While your last point could count as evidence, the Cell Juniors seem keen on having fun with their opponents as seen by them torturing the earthlings instead of killing them, so I'm sure enemies infinitely stronger than what they had to deal with firstly would warrant them all being there. They didn't even fully mount an offensive over them iirc. They were all in fighting position, but Goten and Trunks were fending off two or three.
That part is at least true, given how Base Trunks took a sucker punch from one prior. Sucker punches in general aren't ever treat as serious indicators, however, with Trunks also taking one from Boo; and the examples you gave were still ones of a fighter clearly dominating their opponent (with a similar gap between your placement of SSJ Kid Trunks and a Cell Junior in the Trunks VS Cell example, no less), yet dominating an opponent is far from what the Cell Juniors did to Trunks and Goten.
Which at least puts to rest your argument that they should have been "one shorted". It wasn't a dominance performance by the Cell Juniors, but since the "fight" lasted for a panel or so, no way to tell what would have unfolded of that. The above quote I highlighted implies they'd be easily manhandled.
Irrelevant when if she was truly this superior to them, all she'd need is one hit at full power.
That argument still doesn't amount to much. Was #18 lacking in confidence once she saw how they increased their power when turning into a SSJ? If not, then she still had powers in reserve, and the fact that she says "change of plans" once she sees their SSJ power implies she was planning on having fun with them when they were on base. Their base are nowhere near her.
You call this a bored expression?
Seemed somewhat serious in the first panel and then casual in the other one, while Trunks was showing signs of effort. They still defended her blows with great difficulty, leading to her speedblitzing them and slamming them into the ground. She's then found curious and trying to understand their power, get ahold on the whole thing.
She was aware that Mighty Mask was fairly powerful to some degree as early as him oneshotting Kilah.
Commenting that some competitor is powerful in a tournament in which the supposedly strong ones were away =/= admitting they were significant to her.

Once they turned into a SSJ she smiles, that is, now she knows why they were that powerful and the mystery is over.
There was no need to. Even with Trunks having comparable strength, it's blatantly said by Trunks several times how difficult it is to fight in the costume as the main reason the duo were at a disadvantage.
So what's your point? That she knew she was very outclassed but was still confident since they were nerfed by the suit? Quite a bold claim when she knew they could just opt to a chi blast. Heck, even a handwaved could get her to lose considering Roshi eliminated Yamcha with one when the gap wasn't even THAT big. Again, their base power was just not on her league at all.
So you agree that #18 was indeed shocked at their power and, thus, resorted to the Kienzan, which confirms Kid Trunks is far above Pre-Rosat Future Trunks?
She was surprised by their power, sure, implying she didnt anticipate such. But considering, like I said, it was a quick blast and she was taken off guard, there's still wiggle room to have them below her. Not to mention that she might be worried for the spectators' safety, which is also a motive of concern.
You do realise that applies every bit as much to Trunks, someone who could barely fight properly in the costume, don't you?
This leads to a circular argument then... We know #18 wasn't at full power given the logic above. We also know that Trunks couldn't fight to his full abilities. And since we have no way to know which hindered the most, it doesn't mean much.
Shin referred to him by name as soon as he saw him, had clear knowledge of Yakon's ability to absorb light and is referred to by the Daizenshuu explicitly to be scared of him, not cautious. It's clear he had some personal experience in knowing how strong Yakon is.
Again, he referred to him as a magical beast. And it's clear by his surprise that he didn't remember his ability of absorbing light energy. Moreover, the same guide states he's far above Piccolo. Piccolo below Yakon then?

Keedounan said:
Repeating your exact same arguments generally does little to help you in a debate. Who's to say it was barely a fight? Do you have a timeframe? A reference that helps you to determinate how long is "barely a fight"? After all, what do you call an IRL fight that lasts 10 seconds? A fight.
I didn't repeat my argument. I pointed to my argument above laid out to Captain Cadaver which expanded my initial point.

I don't have the means to pinpoint how much the fight lasted (we were given a single panel). Do you, though? You are the one pushing the scene as evidence for their strength, so if we are offered a single panel with no specification of how much it lasted, it's left vague and then not strong enough to back up your point.
Goten and Trunks being at disadvantage against seven Cell Juniors does little to take away from their performance. Future Trunks after a second session in the RoSaT could barely put up a fight against a single one of them. Future Trunks before RoSaT would have gotten his ass handed to him as easily as Goku (tired) and the Earthlings did.
Them being at a disadvantage isn't the only thing. We don't know how much power the Cell Juniors were using, as they were tamed not to kill their opponents... So you'd have to prove they were above the Cell Juniors to warrant them going all out. It seems not every one of them attacked and they promptly backed off. It isn't near enough to trace a conclusion regarding their strength by this.
When they were instructed to actively hurt the Z-Fighters, they still showed just enough restraint to not kill the earthlings and Goku while still beating the crap out of them. Yet you're telling that to defend the island, they held all the way back to Trunks pre-RoSaT level just to keep themselves from killing the kids, even though such a power gap would be more than enough to take them out in one blow? If they had so little restraint, 17 wouldn't count on them to defend the island against poachers that are most commonly regular humans.
No, I'm not saying that they held back to those punny poacher's level not to kill the kids. I'm saying that since they are instructed not to kill, they could have just easily adjusted their level to the point the kids wouldn't be crippled by their blows. And since, you know, we have one panel of the fight and no indication at all that it lasted for long, it makes sense to the kids being left unscathed after it.
She's not just taken aback, though. She outrights considers them a threat for her victory. Also, SSJ Trunks pre-RoSaT was nothing to her, initially or not. She blocked his sword so well that it broke, then she took him out in one hit.
When did she consider them a threat to her victory? All she did was yell at them and then throw a kienzan to disqualify them. While you could say she could manhandle both, winning by force or disqualification would lead to the same end result -- the kids lose their chance to continue competing.

I don't see how that's enough to contradict a clear cut statement that kid Trunks is = pre room Trunks from the future.
 

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Dragon Ball Fan said:
I don't have the means to pinpoint how much the fight lasted (we were given a single panel). Do you, though? You are the one pushing the scene as evidence for their strength, so if we are offered a single panel with no specification of how much it lasted, it's left vague and then not strong enough to back up your point.

It is, though. As said earlier, even a few seconds of fighting still count as a fight. It's not even like it toon long for the Cell Juniors to stomp most of the Z-Fighters. Goku and the earthlings are shown getting stomped in one panel, then spend the rest of the chapter getting pummeled. What's the difference? The "single panel" is simply an excuse to dismiss this fight.

Them being at a disadvantage isn't the only thing. We don't know how much power the Cell Juniors were using, as they were tamed not to kill their opponents... So you'd have to prove they were above the Cell Juniors to warrant them going all out.

Actually, you're the one who claimed they were holding back. That means the burden of proof is on you, not the other way around.

And again, even when Cell Juniors were instructed to hurt the Z-Fighters, they held back just enough to not kill them, but still used enough power to completely dominate the fight. Why are they incapable of doing so against the kids just because they were tamed to not kill? It's not even like they had any reason to make the fight last. It makes the idea that they could have defeated them easily from the beginning quite unrealistic.

It seems not every one of them attacked and they promptly backed off. It isn't near enough to trace a conclusion regarding their strength by this.

When Future Trunks and Vegeta from Cell Games, the only ones who could actually fight them, had trouble against just a single one of them, it's more than enough. The kids don't even have a scratch on them even as they're struggling against the five Cell Juniors shown to actively attack. That's a better performance than anyone who previously fought them.

No, I'm not saying that they held back to those punny poacher's level not to kill the kids. I'm saying that since they are instructed not to kill, they could have just easily adjusted their level to the point the kids wouldn't be crippled by their blows.

That's a terrible argument. Even as they were beating up the Z-Fighters, they've shown enough restraint to not cripple them. Even someone as strong as 18 couldn't cripple Future Trunks pre-RoSaT. You're basically arguing that they refused to take a decisive advantage of strength or speed against the kids just because they didn't want to cripple them, despite the fact they're more than capable of adjusting their levels to the point they can win easily without crippling anyone. That just doesn't make any sense.

And since, you know, we have one panel of the fight and no indication at all that it lasted for long, it makes sense to the kids being left unscathed after it.

It took a grand total of 4 panels for Krillin to be knocked on his ass. And even then, those panels aren't implied to last that long, since it mostly consisted of the Cell Junior dodging a single attack from Krillin and countering.

On this panel, at least, multiple attacks are happening.

When did she consider them a threat to her victory? All she did was yell at them and then throw a kienzan to disqualify them. While you could say she could manhandle both, winning by force or disqualification would lead to the same end result -- the kids lose their chance to continue competing.

She considered them a threat at the very moment Trunks threw a powerful ki blast.

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P12.4, P13.1
Context: after Trunks’ ki blast explodes
No.18: “Yo-you’ve got to be kidding…That energy bullet had absolutely incredible speed and destructive power…Co-could it be that those squirts have outrageous power?…This is dangerous! I’ve got to settle this fight soon!”

I don't see how that's enough to contradict a clear cut statement that kid Trunks is = pre room Trunks from the future.

Those two instances alone are more than enough to prove this statement wrong, feats being above statements and all. Burter being the fastest in the universe was a clear-cut statement too, remember?

I can also add more to the table, such as...

* Base Goten throwing a rock that a casual SSJ Gohan could barely dodge when he was training his reflexes. 

* SSJ Goten consistently making SSJ Gohan use noticeable effort in their sparrings. Also, Gohan notes that the kids could surpass him if he's not careful. 

* SSJ Trunks managing to get past SSJ Vegeta's guard and hit his face. 

* When it was thought the three adult Saiyans were dead, Piccolo calls them the last hope of the Earth. Note this was before Fusion was introduced. 

* When powering up to show their full power to Goku, their ki slightly blew back Piccolo and makes him sweat. 

Considering Future Trunks pre-RoSaT was pretty much two-shotted by 17 and 18 from Cell arc, it'll take a lot of glossing over in order for you to claim he's anywhere near the kids in strength.
 

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Keedounan said:
It is, though. As said earlier, even a few seconds of fighting still count as a fight. It's not even like it toon long for the Cell Juniors to stomp most of the Z-Fighters. Goku and the earthlings are shown getting stomped in one panel, then spend the rest of the chapter getting pummeled. What's the difference? The "single panel" is simply an excuse to dismiss this fight.
It isn't an excuse. It's a recognisement that the fight didn't last long enough for us to trace conclusions. The earthlings were trashed quickly, sure, but it's arguable that the Cell Juniors had prior knowledge of their strength as per Cell giving them birth and being informed on the warrior's strength. There, the Cell Juniors had to adapt to kid Trunks' strength and use power enough only to knock them out. It's really a poor feat and piece of evidence to imply they were that strong. We don't even know if they were going all out there. Similarly, Kami also stopped Piccolo's punch for one panel... Yet we know by statements that Kami is weak enough he can't even pinpoint his movements. A fight lasting for one panel in which the kids are on their tools and the Juniors are having fun isn't evidence of anything.
Actually, you're the one who claimed they were holding back. That means the burden of proof is on you, not the other way around.
Already proven by Vegeta stating his present son was as good as the iteration 17 was aware of. So they had to be holding back by default, which is also proven by how casual they look.
And again, even when Cell Juniors were instructed to hurt the Z-Fighters, they held back just enough to not kill them, but still used enough power to completely dominate the fight. Why are they incapable of doing so against the kids just because they were tamed to not kill? It's not even like they had any reason to make the fight last. It makes the idea that they could have defeated them easily from the beginning quite unrealistic.
Since the kids apparently just turned into SSJs, they had yet to adapt their strength to that level. Adapting might take some moments as they just flared up their SSJs power... Which could be employed if the fight didn't last for one panel.
When Future Trunks and Vegeta from Cell Games, the only ones who could actually fight them, had trouble against just a single one of them, it's more than enough. The kids don't even have a scratch on them even as they're struggling against the five Cell Juniors shown to actively attack. That's a better performance than anyone who previously fought them.
Except Vegeta actually had his Cell Junior to exert effort, drawing blood from him and getting into an exchange... Same with Trunks who had his Cell Junior employ a serious expression when blocking his kick. Not really comparable to a scuffle that lasts for one panel where the Cell Juniors were as casual as it gets and no indication of using anywhere near full power.
That's a terrible argument. Even as they were beating up the Z-Fighters, they've shown enough restraint to not cripple them. Even someone as strong as 18 couldn't cripple Future Trunks pre-RoSaT. You're basically arguing that they refused to take a decisive advantage of strength or speed against the kids just because they didn't want to cripple them, despite the fact they're more than capable of adjusting their levels to the point they can win easily without crippling anyone. That just doesn't make any sense.
No, I'm arguing that they had to adjust their level to one the then thought-to-be invaders wouldn't be crippled by their attacks. Considering they quickly transformed into SSJs and it takes some time to adjust one's level of effort, it's acceptable they weren't harmed after such a puny fight.
On this panel, at least, multiple attacks are happening.
With no indication that they were using their full power. With Kuririn at last, we might argue they inherited Cell's knowledge on his strength and then had already a conceivable knowledge on his strength. Against Trunks, the kids had just turned into SSJs and no time for adjustments to be made as it all went down really quickly.
She considered them a threat at the very moment Trunks threw a powerful ki blast.

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P12.4, P13.1
Context: after Trunks’ ki blast explodes
No.18: “Yo-you’ve got to be kidding…That energy bullet had absolutely incredible speed and destructive power…Co-could it be that those squirts have outrageous power?…This is dangerous! I’ve got to settle this fight soon!”
Or she was just concerned that the battle would be too out of control and be a threat to whoever was attending the tournament.
Those two instances alone are more than enough to prove this statement wrong, feats being above statements and all. Burter being the fastest in the universe was a clear-cut statement too, remember?
Butta's statement is solidly proven wrong. Not with Trunks, which is still up in the air and left to imagination. Their feats hops on the assumption that their opponents were fighting at their fullest.
Base Goten throwing a rock that a casual SSJ Gohan could barely dodge when he was training his reflexes.
Gohan clearly underestimated Goten there. You can see that after a while he gets used to Goten's speed and swiftly dodge those.
SSJ Goten consistently making SSJ Gohan use noticeable effort in their sparrings. Also, Gohan notes that the kids could surpass him if he's not careful.
We have no indication that Gohan was at full power. Since we have a solid statement pinpointing present Trunks' strength, then there's credence to the idea Gohan wasn't at full power. If Goten is already stronger than Freeza with barely a serious training, then it stands to reason that Gohan could be surpassed soon. On a similar taken, future Gohan states future Trunks could surpass him soon if he kept up at it, whereas base Gohan could already fend off SSJ future teen Trunks.
SSJ Trunks managing to get past SSJ Vegeta's guard and hit his face.
Which happens when Vegeta is caught off guard, as he later admits he didn't think his son would be this good. We can see an exclamation mark on Vegeta as soon as Trunks throws the first punch.
When it was thought the three adult Saiyans were dead, Piccolo calls them the last hope of the Earth. Note this was before Fusion was introduced.
Piccolo was likely speaking in terms of their potential, not their current strength, as... They couldn't hope to defeat Boo with their available strength. Since Piccolo knows about the Room and the kids' potential, it was likely what he meant when mentioning their hope rested on the kids.
 

Keedounan

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Dragon Ball Fan said:
It isn't an excuse. It's a recognisement that the fight didn't last long enough for us to trace conclusions. The earthlings were trashed quickly, sure, but it's arguable that the Cell Juniors had prior knowledge of their strength as per Cell giving them birth and being informed on the warrior's strength.

Except you have absolutely no evidence of it at all. You're just making up unsupported assumptions as you go along. Even if they did have intel on their opponents, they could just sense their opponent's ki and adapt to it.

It's really a poor feat and piece of evidence to imply they were that strong.

Considering you literally had to make the assumption that the Cell Juniors had prior knowledge on the warriors just to nerf the kids, I think it's good enough.

We don't even know if they were going all out there.

Well, we certainly know that they did better than anyone in Cell Games, including Vegeta and Future Trunks from Cell Games, which shows they couldn't dominate them as they did the others.

Similarly, Kami also stopped Piccolo's punch for one panel... Yet we know by statements that Kami is weak enough he can't even pinpoint his movements.

A statement that occured in a fight that happened much later than Kami VS Piccolo. In a fight in which it's been explicitely shown that Piccolo wasn't going all-out.

A fight lasting for one panel in which the kids are on their tools and the Juniors are having fun isn't evidence of anything.

It certainly proves Future Trunks pre-RoSaTisn't anywhere near the kids. Much like Goku (tired), he wouldn't even last a single panel.

Already proven by Vegeta stating his present son was as good as the iteration 17 was aware of. So they had to be holding back by default.

Goten and Trunks pulled off feats above Future Trunks' (pre-RoSaT) level. Feats > Sratements.


Since the kids apparently just turned into SSJs, they had yet to adapt their strength to that level. Adapting might take some moments as they just flared up their SSJs power... Which could be employed if the fight didn't last for one panel.

Judging by Toppo's fight against Goku, adjusting to your opponent's changing power doesn't take that long.


Except Vegeta actually had his Cell Junior to exert effort, drawing blood from him and getting into an exchange...

The kids got into an exchange with multiple Cell Juniors.

Same with Trunks who had his Cell Junior employ a serious expression when blocking his kick. Not really comparable to a scuffle that lasts for one panel where the Cell Juniors were as casual as it gets and no indication of using anywhere near full power.

So a character smiling is an indication they weren't using full power? What about Vegeta smugly smiling after using his full power to beat up Goku? Or Nappa having a serious expressions when using nowhere near his full power?

No, I'm arguing that they had to adjust their level to one the then thought-to-be invaders wouldn't be crippled by their attacks. Considering they quickly transformed into SSJs and it takes some time to adjust one's level of effort, it's acceptable they weren't harmed after such a puny fight.

1)"Quickly transformed into SSJs" = Conjecture.
2)Toppo has shown it doesn't take that long to adapt.


With no indication that they were using their full power. With Kuririn at last, we might argue they inherited Cell's knowledge on his strength and then had already a conceivable knowledge on his strength. Against Trunks, the kids had just turned into SSJs and no time for adjustments to be made as it all went down really quickly.

How many times must I counter this with Toppo?

Or she was just concerned that the battle would be too out of control and be a threat to whoever was attending the tournament.

This argument would have had more weight if...

1)You couldn't say the exact same thing about Trunks when considering he wasn't only in a restrictive costume, but also to care about people to care about not getting caught up in the action. But he only explicitely held back to keep himself from seriously hurting 18.

2)This whole idea of #18 holding back because of not wanting to get the spectators involved implies that she can't control her strength properly, which is false, as we saw in her fight with Vegeta.

3)Gohan only wanted to ban SSJ to protect their identity, never once pointing out the risks of using it with all those bystanders, which once again makes me wonder why #18 couldn't fight at full power without threatening everyone around her. Not to mention Goku and Oob fighting 10 years later, in a level substantiated as being > Mr. Boo and yet inflicting no damage to whoever was there.

Simply put, it's a weak argument.

Butta's statement is solidly proven wrong. Not with Trunks, which is still up in the air and left to imagination. Their feats hops on the assumption that their opponents were fighting at their fullest.

So the Cell Juniors smiling/laughing is enough to make you conclude they were holding back, yet Gohan clenching his teeth and using visible effort isn't enough for you to conclude he was using up a lot of power?


Gohan clearly underestimated Goten there. You can see that after a while he gets used to Goten's speed and swiftly dodge those.

He didn't, actually. Before Goten could throw a rock again, he asked him to wait for him to step back so that he can dodge them easily.

We have no indication that Gohan was at full power.

Aside from the fact that his SSJ aura make it clear he wasn't at casual levels? That he was visibly using a lot of effort just to spar with Goten?
Or that he could barely dodge Goten throwing a rock at a short distance even when he was using a casual level of SSJ.

Since we have a solid statement pinpointing present Trunks' strength, then there's credence to the idea Gohan wasn't at full power.

Not only does this statement contradicts the fact Base Trunks was fighting on par with 18 (a narrative backed up by the Daizenshuu), but also the mere idea that Gohan was holding back to the point he was at a comparable level to Future Trunks pre-RoSaT is contradicted by the fact he was visibly using effort in his sparring. Which makes no sense if he was using a level of power far, far below his level.


Which happens when Vegeta is caught off guard, as he later admits he didn't think his son would be this good. We can see an exclamation mark on Vegeta as soon as Trunks throws the first punch.

Off-guard? Even though he was actively blocking Trunks' hits? It seems that no matter the feat they pull off, you'll always find an excuse to downplay it.

Piccolo was likely speaking in terms of their potential, not their current strength, as... They couldn't hope to defeat Boo with their available strength. Since Piccolo knows about the Room and the kids' potential, it was likely what he meant when mentioning their hope rested on the kids.

Even assuming it was just about their potential, their power-up also slightly blew him back and made him sweat.
 

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Keedounan said:
Goten and Trunks pulled off feats above Future Trunks' (pre-RoSaT) level. Feats > Sratements. 
Feats nowhere near as conclusive as you think they are. One consists of a single page taken from the Cell Juniors' assault with no intention to kill when the Cell Juniors had the kids on the ropes for a single panel. The other takes the #18 fight and assumes she was using full power. As well as the instances they take Vegeta and Gohan off their guard.
Judging by Toppo's fight against Goku, adjusting to your opponent's changing power doesn't take that long. 
Toppo had more power to properly adjust his attack since Goku transformed into God and still bragged about that form a little while they were at it. The kids could have transformed into SSJs as soon as the Cell Juniors charged off their way.

As you can see here, Goku quickly defended #17's first attack in his base state, while #17 was a match for his SSJ3:

0031-024.png

While it's true that #17 underestimated his opponent and thought he was a random poacher, Goku still easily dodged #17's first hits on his base state:

0031-025.png

And then and only then he was being overwhelmed as #17 got used to this level lf power. Meaning adapting to one's strength doesn't always happen in the span of a page or so.

Heck, in the Cell Juniors' little scuffle we see one of them punching base Trunks off. It cuts to 17 who explains he left those little things behind, and then it cuts to them with a lot of effort fending off those playing creatures. So if Goku in his normal state can still fend off #17 initially despite being multiple times weaker, so can Goten and Trunks against the Cell Juniors who weren't visibly exerting effort.
The kids got into an exchange with multiple Cell Juniors.
Each defended two at the same time, actually... when they were seen smiling and we have an example that adapting to a level one can easily knock around the opponent is possible not to accur in the spam of a page or so.
So a character smiling is an indication they weren't using full power? What about Vegeta smugly smiling after using his full power to beat up Goku? Or Nappa having a serious expressions when using nowhere near his full power? 
It means they weren't exerting their fullest level of effort, in contrast with the kids bearing such expressions. Vegeta wasn't smiling amidst his battle against Goku. He smiled when launching the blast, but we know from him that the blast was made purposely easy for Goku to dodge.
1)"Quickly transformed into SSJs" = Conjecture. 
2)Toppo has shown it doesn't take that long to adapt. 
Now that I've reread the sequence, the first was conjecture on my part. It happened with Toppo, but with #17, a situation closer to the context in which the kids were dragged onto the fight, we see how it takes a while for #17 to adapt to Goku's level... who initially blocks hits from someone stronger than his SSJ3. So it doesn't need to be as fast as you want to.
How many times must I counter this with Toppo? 
And how many times must I bring the very Goku vs 17 fight to your attention?
1)You couldn't say the exact same thing about Trunks when considering he wasn't only in a restrictive costume, but also to care about people to care about not getting caught up in the action. But he only explicitely held back to keep himself from seriously hurting 18. 

2)This whole idea of #18 holding back because of not wanting to get the spectators involved implies that she can't control her strength properly, which is false, as we saw in her fight with Vegeta. 

3)Gohan only wanted to ban SSJ to protect their identity, never once pointing out the risks of using it with all those bystanders, which once again makes me wonder why #18 couldn't fight at full power without threatening everyone around her. Not to mention Goku and Oob fighting 10 years later, in a level substantiated as being > Mr. Boo and yet inflicting no damage to whoever was there.
It's stated by #18 that it's hard for her to control her power in the punching machine qualification, so we have precedent lending credence to her not having a mastery over her own power. Similarly, she has seen from Goten that he doesn't have proper control over his power when his KHH almost killed the announcer, so a clash between her and the kids, who are also prone to immaturity, could prove to be a danger. While she could easily defeat them, she had no awareness about their next course of action, and tanking a blast from them, depending on the way it's done, could impact the spectators and bystanders.
So the Cell Juniors smiling/laughing is enough to make you conclude they were holding back, yet Gohan clenching his teeth and using visible effort isn't enough for you to conclude he was using up a lot of power?
I', not basing the whole Cell Juniors fight solely on them smiling when attacking, but also the duration of the whole thing. And I've already backed it up with a fight in a similar situation. Gohan was greeting his teeth initially and exerting effort, but both were seen aura-less. It's true that there's nothing in their second sparring that would indicate Gohan was holding back, but the statement from Vegeta retroactively apply the must-be-holding back factor to me. In a similar way, Goku states that Dabra is about as strong as Cell. We are then initially led to a fight in which Gohan shows no spark... but since there's no way a wekened Gohan could keep up with Cell, we adjust or explain the lack of sparks in the artwork in ways that would fit the non-dubious, left to interpretation statement.
He didn't, actually. Before Goten could throw a rock again, he asked him to wait for him to step back so that he can dodge them easily. 
And then he says Goten could get closer because he was getting used to it.
Not only does this statement contradicts the fact Base Trunks was fighting on par with 18 (a narrative backed up by the Daizenshuu), but also the mere idea that Gohan was holding back to the point he was at a comparable level to Future Trunks pre-RoSaT is contradicted by the fact he was visibly using effort in his sparring. Which makes no sense if he was using a level of power far, far below his level. 
Visibly using effort in a fight doesn't mean you have to be fighting near your full power. You can still strain hard and yet be away from your full power. For instance, Freeza with no usage of hands was actually exerting effort when being outmatched by base Goku... that was only a fraction of his power.
Off-guard? Even though he was actively blocking Trunks' hits? It seems that no matter the feat they pull off, you'll always find an excuse to downplay it. 
...yes, off guard. Look at his exclamation mark as soon as Trunks threw the first punch, and we can quite clearly see he underestimated him based on his statement after their little engagement.
Even assuming it was just about their potential, their power-up also slightly blew him back and made him sweat.
Which could happen if he wasn't expecting those little kids to bear such power.
 

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Dragon Ball Fan said:
Feats nowhere near as conclusive as you think they are. One consists of a single page taken from the Cell Juniors' assault with no intention to kill when the Cell Juniors had the kids on the ropes for a single panel.

Having no intention to kill doesn't always imply holding back, especiallt when the opponent can take it. Besides, what makes you think the kids intended to kill them?

The other takes the #18 fight and assumes she was using full power. As well as the instances they take Vegeta and Gohan off their guard.

1)Not only there are good reasons to believe #18 was at full power, but she also considers the kids to have outrageous power, whereas she called Vegeta "nothing special", "weak" and "helpless".

2)How were Gohan or Vegeta off-guard? They were fighting the kids on plain sight, while actively blocking their blows.

Toppo had more power to properly adjust his attack since Goku transformed into God and still bragged about that form a little while they were at it. It seems the kids transformed into SSJs as soon as the Cell Juniors charged off their way.

But you have no evidence of it, right?

As you can see here, Goku quickly defended #17's first attack in his base state, while #17 was a match for his SSJ3:

0031-024.png

While it's true that #17 underestimated his opponent, Goku still easily dodged #17's first hits on his base state:

0031-025.png

And then and only then he was being overwhelmed as #17 got used to this level lf power. Meaning adapting to one's strength doesn't always happens in the span of a page or so.

Immediately afterwards, 17 adjusted to Goku turning from base to SSJ2. After he dodged a hit, he dashed forwards to headbutt him, to great effect. Then he pressured SSJ3 Goku.

Here is another example...

Kid Boo adjusted his power just enough to punch Mister Satan. Then enough to dodge Boo's blast.

Heck, in the Cell Juniors' little scuffle we see one of them punching base Trunks off. It cuts to 17 who explains he left those littlw things behind, and then it cuts to them with a lot of effort fending off those playing creatures. So if Goku in his normal state can still fend off #17 initially despite being multiple times weaker, so can Goten and Trunks against the Cell Juniors who weren't visibly exerting effort.

So they've gone from being incapable of knocking out Base Trunks to putting the two kids on defensive? As SSJs? Sounds like they could adjust just fine, doesn't it? Yet, they somehow still didn't manage to stomp them despite the gigantic power gap you're suggesting.

What's your explanation for this?

It means they weren't exerting their fullest level of effort, in contrast with the kids bearing such expressions.

Oh really? Smiling means they weren't exerting their fullest level of effort? How about SSJ Gohan or Vegeta, then? Were they using their fullest levels of efforts?

Now that I've reread the sequence, the first was conjecture on my part. It happened with Toppo, but with #17, a situation closer to the context in which the kids were dragged onto the fight, we see how it takes a while for #17 to adapt to Goku's level... who initially blocks hits from someone stronger than his SSJ3. So it doesn't need to be as fast as you want to.

Seems like the Cell Juniors adjusted fine, since they've gone from punching off a Base Saiyan to fighting off a Super Saiyan.

It's stated by #18 that it's hard for her to control her power in the punching machine qualification, so we have precedent lending credence to her not having a mastery over her own power.

It's only hard to hold back to such a low level. And even then, we see her capable of easily knocking out a normal human without killing him. The crendence to not having a master over her power is extremely limited from we've seen of her when she actually fought.

Similarly, she has seen from Goten that he doesn't have proper control over his pkwer when his KHH almost killed the announcer, so a clash between her and the kids, who are also prone to immaturity, could prove to be a danger.

They've shown enough maturity to keep themselves from risking the lives of the audience. When Trunks fired his blast at Goten, he easily deviated its trajectory towards the sky. When they've seen Goten doesn't master his Kamehameha, they agreed to keep fighting without ki blasts, again showing maturity. The blast fired by Trunks was carefully done to avoid hitting anyone (even the collateral damage was non-existant) and they even made sure to hold back to avoid seriously hurting 18. Again, showing maturity and care about what they were doing.

Add to that the fact they also have loved ones to care about among the audience, and 18 had zero reasons to worry about the bystanders. Nor did she ever. It's a narrative you've made up for no other reason than downplaying the kids. Pure conjecture. Especially when considering her daughter was here.

Yet she was just concerned about winning the tournament. She was just concerned about their power, rather than the damage it could cause.

While she could easily defeat them, she had no awareness about their next course of action, and tanking a blast from them, depending on the way it's done, could impact the spectators and bystanders.

Considering the ki blast was clearly fired to limit the collateral damage, it sounds like a weak excuse.

Gohan was greeting his teeth initially and exerting effort, but both were seen aura-less.

So they were both holding back.

Ut's true that there's nothing in their second spaarring that would indicate Gohan was holding back, but the statement from Vegeta retroactively apply the must-be-holding back factor to me.

So even though you have an undisputable evidence in front of you, you'll still insist that SSJ Trunks was Future Trunks pre-RoSaT just because Vegeta said so? You're frankly unbelievable.

Is that how you've reasoned when Freeza said this, after fighting people way stronger than Ginyu?

Chapter: 309 (DBZ 115), P3.2-3
Freeza: “You seem far stronger than I thought. I’m a little surprised. To think that there was someone in this world above Captain Ginyu…But you’re no match for me.”

In a similar way, Goku states that Dabra is about as strong as Cell. We are then initially led to a fight in which Gohan shows no spark... but since there's no way a wekened Gohan could keep up with Cell, we adjust or explain the lack of sparks in the artwork in ways that would fit the non-dubious, left to interpretation statement.

Except it is dubious and absolutely not left to interpretation. I can't believe we're still discussing it despite the fact you've admitted that everything was showing Gohan was fighting seriously.

And thhen he sais Goten could get closer because he was getting used to it.

Fair enough.

Visibly using effort in a fight doesn't mean you have to be fighting near your full power. You can still strain hard and yet be away from your full power. For instance, Freeza with no usage of hands was actually exerting effort when being outmatched by base Goku... that was only a fraction of his power.

While that might be true, Freeza had what, a trickle of sweat? In their second session, Gohan was sweating profusely, had his SSJ aura up, and clenching his teeth. Does it look like someone who's heavily holding back?


...yes, off guard. Look at his exclamation mark as soon as Trunks threw the first punch, and we can quote clearly see he underestimated him based on his statement after their little engagement.

The exclamation mark was at the very beginning of their sparring. And even then, Vegeta still managed to block it...

Besides, this exclamation mark often comes up when a character is outmaneuvered. So it could simply be that Trunks was just strong enough to get past his guard.

Which could habppen if he wasn't expecting those little kids to bear such power.

Including the part about him being slightly blown back?
 

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Keedounan said:
Having no intention to kill doesn't always imply holding back, especiallt when the opponent can take it. Besides, what makes you think the kids intended to kill them? 
It doesn't mean that you'll be always holding back, however it means you won't have the freedom to hit the opponent with whatever amount it pleases you. Cutting loose can't be done as freely, and so a proper adaptation to one's power has to be made.
1)Not only there are good reasons to believe #18 was at full power, but she also considers the kids to have outrageous power, whereas she called Vegeta "nothing special", "weak" and "helpless". 
The reasons for her being at full power are quickly contradicted once she sees them turning into SSJs and still doesn't lose her composure, apparently only understanding their outrageous power once they fight as SSJs.

Her difference of addressing to Trunks and Vegeta can pertain more to her standards before the fight. While her data of Vegeta was outdated, he was still given as a seasoned warrior and posed as a powerful enemy for Goku. He reaching that level might not have seen as so much off the mark to her. She still compliments him, but once the comparison is limited to them androids, Vegeta is basically nothing special. As for Trunks, taking her off guard with his strength when she had lowers standards for him might be a motive that elevated her surprise and compliments in relation to Vegeta.

Similarly, Goku calls Yamcha in the 22nd Budokai "amazing" and yet considers very little of Tambourine, calling his attack "pathetic", whereas we know Tambourine can defeat someone given as Yamcha's equal (Kuririn). So the context and the standards the characters have are still important when taking into account how they express themselves.
2)How were Gohan or Vegeta off-guard? They were fighting the kids on plain sight, while actively blocking their blows. 
Catching off guard doesn't necessitate one of the warriors to be looking away or to be oblivious at their contender. You can still be caught off guard even when you are looking at your opponent and mounting a full defensive combo. If Vegeta didn't expect this much from Trunks, then he still was taken off guard by Trunks' powers.

To top it off, we have seen how easily Vegeta dodged Zarbon's kicks when the gap between their power amounted to 10%. He easily dodges his kicks in a more impressive fashion than against Kid Trunks, so if we were to take the feats at face value, kid Trunks should be more than 90% relevant in comparison to Vegeta's powers. Yet we know that Vegeta holds a sizeable advantage over Gohan who, no matter how tou high ball the kids, is still above kid Trunks. Therefore, there's clearly something "else" to this feat Vegeta performed, in which his performance was likely hampered by the lack of intel on Trunks' agility.
But you have no evidence of it, right? 
It's easily inferable and can serve as an explanation. He still dodged Goku's punch and kicked him in the gut. The Cell Juniors attacked Goten and Trunks who barely defended their attacks. Also pointing out that the Cell Juniors might share Cell's mentality of having fun in a battle. Cell stated the most fun fight is the one where there isn't a sizeable difference between the combatant's power... it's arguable the Cell Juniors inherited some of his traits and didn't want to end it as quick as possible.
Immediately afterwards, 17 adjusted to Goku turning from base to SSJ2. After he dodged a hit, he dashed forwards to headbutt him, to great effect. Then he pressured SSJ3 Goku. 
Which isn't relevant because the fight against the Cell Juniors lasted for one panel. I used the 17's fight as an example of one that lasted for more than one panel and no adjustment was made. The adjusting to Goku's power occurred after they had already exchanged some blows and tested the waters.
Kid Boo adjusted his power just enough to punch Mister Satan. Then enough to dodge Boo's blast. 
I'd say that adjusting to a level of someone who's piss weak and then hitting this someone with a gentle tap is easier than quickly adjusting to the level of someone who's in the hundreds of millions and hitting enough to KO this someone. Plus the evidence I posted above, to which is feasable that the Cell Juniors also enjoyed a fight in which their advantage would be mildly perceptible.
So they've gone from being incapable of knocking out Base Trunks to putting the two kids on defensive? As SSJs? Sounds like they could adjust just fine, doesn't it? Yet, they somehow still didn't manage to stomp them despite the gigantic power gap you're suggesting. 
I'd just point out that knocking out someone is pretty inconsistent in this series, as kid Trunks wasn't KO'd when being hit by Super Boo in the Room of Time. Even if you point that out to suppression, I can also easily say that it speaks to the inconsistency of KO'ing someone. Even as far as the Freeza saga, base Goku took on many hits from final form Freeza using 50% of his power with no Kaioken on and was still kicking. Future Cell also took on a punch from future Trunks and survived despite the gap being humongous and the list goes on.
Oh really? Smiling means they weren't exerting their fullest level of effort? How about SSJ Gohan or Vegeta, then? Were they using their fullest levels of efforts? 
Among those fights, only the Gohan vs Goten, the second, most intense sparring session holds up, as the first Gohan vs Goten one consisted of both being far from full power and the Vegeta vs Trunks one meets the problems specified above. And I'd be taking that fight for what it was if there weren't other piece of evidence pointing out to Gohan still been holding back, like the statement displayed on this thread. Flaring up an aura and showing sign of effort isn't an end all indication of someone being at full power, either, so I'm fine with accomodating the level Gohan was using to later evidences.
Seems like the Cell Juniors adjusted fine, since they've gone from punching off a Base Saiyan to fighting off a Super Saiyan.
Or being KO'ed just doesn't mean that much, as exemplified above.
They've shown enough maturity to keep themselves from risking the lives of the audience. When Trunks fired his blast at Goten, he easily deviated its trajectory towards the sky. When they've seen Goten doesn't master his Kamehameha, they agreed to keep fighting without ki blasts, again showing maturity. The blast fired by Trunks was carefully done to avoid hitting anyone (even the collateral damage was non-existant) and they even made sure to hold back to avoid seriously hurting 18. Again, showing maturity and care about what they were doing. 

Add to that the fact they also have loved ones to care about among the audience, and 18 had zero reasons to worry about the bystanders. Nor did she ever. It's a narrative you've made up for no other reason than downplaying the kids. Pure conjecture. Especially when considering her daughter was here. 
Fair enough points. But still, the kids have shown themselves to be prone to some reckless behavior when mindlessly blasting out Super Boo until Piccolo pointed out how that wouldn't be a wise thing to do. Plus, we still saw that Trunks turned a blind eye to the rule he came up with when the fight got rough to his side, so it's fair to say that there's still some level of immaturity when their chances of winning are at play, which 18 could have nlticed. Adds to that a power in the hundreds millions, and it's fair to see #18 thinking she should promptly end up the fight and not engage into it.
Considering the ki blast was clearly fired to limit the collateral damage, it sounds like a weak excuse. 
Damage to #18. She saw how they were really outrageously strong by that and decided to end it up right there. The "it's too dangerous" isn't specified as being a threat to herself. Although I acknowledge the points you raised above, even if they were still a threat to her chances of winning and she decided because of it to end the battle, Trunks stated that they'd be still at a disadvantage in the costume if they attempted to fight her. And although it was a pretty restrictive costume, Trunks still was perfectly capable of throwing a punch with it. Heck, Roshi eliminated Yamcha in the 21st Budokai with a handwave when the gap wasn't even multifold, and yet Trunks treats the chi blast like their way to go, and if he were like Gohan's level strength, I'm sure other alternatives like the handwave or the "wind punch" Goku employed against Chi Chi in the 23rd Budokai when their difference was roughly 3x (way less accounting for the fact that Goku was wearing weighted clothes) would stand out as better ones for less collateral damage. So although I could agree that the "as best as my son" might be stretching things a little going by this logic, them being times and times above #18 doesn't jive well with the above either.
So they were both holding back. 
Yeah, but no way to pinpoint the exact amount each one was holding back or whether they were by the same amount. Although Goten does look pretty relaxed and casual as SSJ, I'd argue that Gohan can control its power usage better after mastering it in the Room.
So even though you have an undisputable evidence in front of you, you'll still insist that SSJ Trunks was Future Trunks pre-RoSaT just because Vegeta said so? You're frankly unbelievable. 
I haven't once attempted to condescend in this debate, so there's no reason for sly remarks like "you are frankly unbelievable". I'd appreciate keeping this civil.

I agree that Vegeta's statement might come strange with all that was displayed in the Boo saga. But since we got no 100% assuredly statement that Gohan was going at it with 100% of his strength, I see no problem to apply Vegeta's statement as an establishment to the level Gohan was using when fighting Goten. Even if they were still a threat to #18 which I agree couldn't be possible if he were equal to pre Room Trunks, them being at #18's level or at most some not significant tiers above would be the maximum I'd go given the logic applied above.

Freeza's statement isn't completely analogous to this as we have got numbers that 100% place Vegeta and Piccolo as far above Ginyu, so it's easy to discard that statement as dubious. With this though, when we have seen characters flaring up an aura and using effort even when not at 100%, it isn't an end be all evidence.
Except it is dubious and absolutely not left to interpretation. I can't believe we're still discussing it despite the fact you've admitted that everything was showing Gohan was fighting seriously. 
Everything regarding the fight per se... later statements suggest that it was still a suppressed, not full power representation of his strength. To exemplify, (I saw someone pointing it out here, so I borrow the example), the 22nd Budokai, everything points towards Roshi fighting all out against Tenshinhan, with him using effort, sweating and so on. The fight itself doesn't show us that he was still holding back, yet we still have a statement from Tenshinhan after the fight informing us that he was, so we apply that to the fight. Although you could say there isn't someone saying "Gohan held back against Goten" in clear terms as the example, this Vegeta statement or Trunks' behavior after turning into a SSJ treating chi blasts as they way to go against someone that'd be many and many times weaker than them if we took that sparring session at face value, qualify as evidence to me, enough so to put a dent on the "Gohan was at 100%".
While that might be true, Freeza had what, a trickle of sweat? In their second session, Gohan was sweating profusely, had his SSJ aura up, and clenching his teeth. Does it look like someone who's heavily holding back? 
It's true that he wasn't straining as hard. But I see ki as basically layers in the DB world. For example, if someone chooses to use 20% of his total chi and keep the remaining slumbbering into his body, he'd strain as hard as someone that was as strong as what amounts to 20% of his strength, since the remaining is basically still dormant, in the inside, not being accessed. So I don't personally see a problem with Gohan straining as hard even if he were using a low percentage of his power.
Including the part about him being slightly blown back?
I don't see why not. It's not like there's a specific rule regarding a character having to be weaker than the other one if he gets blown back by his power up. It isn't a quantitative feat. Although not a completely analogous instance, we saw how taken aback by base Vegeta's power Kaioshin was once Vegeta destroyed Pocus... and this is coming from a guy way stronger than Piccolo and who could hold ssj2 Gohan. So it seems significantly stronger characters can be taken aback, blown away when they are caught off guard by another party's power.
 

Keedounan

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Look, we've been at it for 3 days. I'm not interested in keeping up a debate with someone who is willing to downplay literally every single one of the kids' showings, even when there are undisputable evidences that their opponents weren't holding back a whole lot. Somehow, Gohan having his SSJ aura up and exerting tons of effort was holding back so much even a Trunks pre-RoSaT level character can give him a fight? All in favor of a single statement that isn't remotely supported by any of their showings? Nevermind the fact Vegeta could have learned 17 knows of Trunks' power from back in Cell Games due to hearing what happened?

Yeah, I'm done here.
 

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