Mah gaps
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Piccolo is 66% of the guy described by him as belonging to a different dimension (I could easily the Ginyus describing Goku as someone who belongs to a different dimension given how outclassed they were) and yet he is heavily outclassed by Cell as it was implied when he was surprised someone in the same general tier as Cell was described as nothing special, and we can clearly see his frustration upon realizing Dabura is there... so CGs FPSSJ Goku fits pretty nicely considering all this imo, in which he is kind of in a middle ground between Piccolo [~CGs Vegeta's tier] and Cell...
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SSJ2 thinks Piccolo > Kaioshin 
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It's interesting enough that below the panel in which Piccolo is seen talking to Goku, it's written: "For Piccolo, who still holds his memories as Kami-sama, facing Kaioshin was a sacrilege/a blasphemy."
So it seems that the Guidebook's take on Piccolo's surrender seems to also match him being inhibited before Kaioshin's presence due to this latter's God's status, considering the Kami-sama inside Piccolo was also a God.
So it seems that the Guidebook's take on Piccolo's surrender seems to also match him being inhibited before Kaioshin's presence due to this latter's God's status, considering the Kami-sama inside Piccolo was also a God.
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Yeah, I agree. I don't agree with Piccolo calling off the fight due to a power gap. That doesn't seem to match the situation presented to us in the manga.
Even though I, as of nowadays, go with Kaioshin being way above Piccolo, I think this latter's surrender was obviously due to something besides strength.
Even though I, as of nowadays, go with Kaioshin being way above Piccolo, I think this latter's surrender was obviously due to something besides strength.
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SSJ2 said:
I was telling Ahill his Cell/Shin/Piccolo comparison is irrevelant for you because you think Piccolo >>> Shin
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I just noticed this is a Freeza > Base. Are you really going with this now, Ahill? 
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The whole Kaioshin segment needs to be rewritten.
Comments about Super Saiyan 2 Gohan at the Budokai should be amped up more. It's silly for them to try to make Kaioshin and Kibito look all that powerful. They should say something like, even the greatest of Gods cannot be that strong. Referring to South Kaioshin or something of that nature.
Kaioshin should mention that Badibi has very strong fighters, but they are no match for him and Kibito. Kibito can handle the light work more or less while Kaioshin has to use all of his might to defeat Badibi's magic. That's the gameplan. Kibito takes out the trash, Kaioshin deals with the powerful wizard. Surprise, surprise, Badibi has gotten the most powerful being in the known universe on his side. Now Kaioshin is sweating and he's sweating because of Dabura and Badibi, not Badibi's fighters. When he gets nervous, he's only nervous because his world is rattled and he's scared that the Saiyans will give up energy to Buu. He's never concerned that he cannot take out Badibi's fighters. Badibi doesn't expect Pocus to defeat Kaioshin and has Dabura out there making sure the matches go as needed. Kaioshin is terrified of Dabura.
Goku needs to clarify Gohan's apparent weakness. Sure, he's slacked off and lost power, but what's worse, he also cannot tap into his full rage power anymore. That's what makes Gohan special. His rage power essentially unlocks his current potential. When he was younger, he was able to get massive rage boosts because he was so untrained. Now that he's trained to the limit and has reached most of his potential, his rage boost puts him into 5th gear instead of 4th. Over the 7 years, although he's weakened, he has grown into a man, his potential is opened up even more and the gap between his trained power and full potential at the time widens. Enraged Teen Gohan is much stronger than Enraged Kid Gohan, even though Kid Gohan is actually more powerful without the rage boost.
Let's see what else there is while I'm on subject. I think that covers the Gohan issues. There's some other stuff with his relation to Fat Buu's various powers, but I can't recall.
Gotenks should get a minimal boost in power in the Rosat and just have the added forms. That's it. All that Base> Super nonsense is just that, nonsense. Slight boost for Gotenks, but it's really about him finding those forms. They are already stupidly powerful as Super Saiyans and they are unlikely to gain massive power in 6 days at this stage of the game.
And that's about it. I have Gohan at 10x stronger than Goku and my numbers look very fair and reasonable. I had to make some changes to the manga, but I think most would agree they are common sense changes.
Also, this is why Gohan is able to lose half his power and still kill Cell. Because his power is unique. If it was anyone else, they wouldn't have a chance. Goku urges Gohan to tap into that monster power one last time and he is able to rage his way back to his full power for just a second. Gohan gets a rage boost there and recovers his true power in totality.
Comments about Super Saiyan 2 Gohan at the Budokai should be amped up more. It's silly for them to try to make Kaioshin and Kibito look all that powerful. They should say something like, even the greatest of Gods cannot be that strong. Referring to South Kaioshin or something of that nature.
Kaioshin should mention that Badibi has very strong fighters, but they are no match for him and Kibito. Kibito can handle the light work more or less while Kaioshin has to use all of his might to defeat Badibi's magic. That's the gameplan. Kibito takes out the trash, Kaioshin deals with the powerful wizard. Surprise, surprise, Badibi has gotten the most powerful being in the known universe on his side. Now Kaioshin is sweating and he's sweating because of Dabura and Badibi, not Badibi's fighters. When he gets nervous, he's only nervous because his world is rattled and he's scared that the Saiyans will give up energy to Buu. He's never concerned that he cannot take out Badibi's fighters. Badibi doesn't expect Pocus to defeat Kaioshin and has Dabura out there making sure the matches go as needed. Kaioshin is terrified of Dabura.
Goku needs to clarify Gohan's apparent weakness. Sure, he's slacked off and lost power, but what's worse, he also cannot tap into his full rage power anymore. That's what makes Gohan special. His rage power essentially unlocks his current potential. When he was younger, he was able to get massive rage boosts because he was so untrained. Now that he's trained to the limit and has reached most of his potential, his rage boost puts him into 5th gear instead of 4th. Over the 7 years, although he's weakened, he has grown into a man, his potential is opened up even more and the gap between his trained power and full potential at the time widens. Enraged Teen Gohan is much stronger than Enraged Kid Gohan, even though Kid Gohan is actually more powerful without the rage boost.
Let's see what else there is while I'm on subject. I think that covers the Gohan issues. There's some other stuff with his relation to Fat Buu's various powers, but I can't recall.
Gotenks should get a minimal boost in power in the Rosat and just have the added forms. That's it. All that Base> Super nonsense is just that, nonsense. Slight boost for Gotenks, but it's really about him finding those forms. They are already stupidly powerful as Super Saiyans and they are unlikely to gain massive power in 6 days at this stage of the game.
And that's about it. I have Gohan at 10x stronger than Goku and my numbers look very fair and reasonable. I had to make some changes to the manga, but I think most would agree they are common sense changes.
Also, this is why Gohan is able to lose half his power and still kill Cell. Because his power is unique. If it was anyone else, they wouldn't have a chance. Goku urges Gohan to tap into that monster power one last time and he is able to rage his way back to his full power for just a second. Gohan gets a rage boost there and recovers his true power in totality.
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^ That's a rather good breakdown. Besides:
"Because he [Gohan] has been slacking off and can't gain power from anger anymore, he isn't that powerful anymore"
Paraphrasing, but it says pretty much this. [Cell Games] SSJ2 Gohan is way more powerful than [Boo saga] SSJ2 Gohan, and whilst there's also a sizeable gap while both versions of Gohan are in their lower forms, the gap isn't as big as it's in SSJ2.
Something we have to find an accurate placement to, though. What is an accurate placement for the base Saiyajins in the Boo saga? My range from them is really varying, man... sometimes I try base < Freeza, and sometimes I feel like trying base > Piccolo, just so we see how my placement for them is completely not set in stone. Maybe the middle ground -- ~ android #17 and #16 -- is indeed the best placement? You should open a thread and make a throughfull breakdown on this base Saiyajins issue, this settles all the list down.
That's basically what I am rolling with as well. Gohan has gotten weaker because he has slacked off, sure, so his base and SSJ form aren't as strong as they were in the Cell Games... but the gap is spetacularly big in the SSJ2 form due to the absence of the rage boost in the Boo saga. The Daizenshuu also compliments this idea pretty well:
"Because he [Gohan] has been slacking off and can't gain power from anger anymore, he isn't that powerful anymore"
Paraphrasing, but it says pretty much this. [Cell Games] SSJ2 Gohan is way more powerful than [Boo saga] SSJ2 Gohan, and whilst there's also a sizeable gap while both versions of Gohan are in their lower forms, the gap isn't as big as it's in SSJ2.
Something we have to find an accurate placement to, though. What is an accurate placement for the base Saiyajins in the Boo saga? My range from them is really varying, man... sometimes I try base < Freeza, and sometimes I feel like trying base > Piccolo, just so we see how my placement for them is completely not set in stone. Maybe the middle ground -- ~ android #17 and #16 -- is indeed the best placement? You should open a thread and make a throughfull breakdown on this base Saiyajins issue, this settles all the list down.
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I'm actually having a debate with SG on the Debate section about the Base Saiyans if you're insterested, Ahill. I'm up to do a breakdown as well.
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SG already responded? Damn, that guy is fast.
