Marik vs. Joey

[Pyro]

I rewatched their duel to get a better understanding of the power rankings in the Battle City arc, and I figured I'd jot down some broad observations. Maybe it'll help convince some that Joey never really stood a chance, or maybe it won't. Either way.

Episode 125: This was all Marik. He never lost control of the duel, completed his goal of getting Helpoemer into the Graveyard, and effectively rendered Joey’s Panther Warrior nearly useless with Plasma Eel. However, he did underestimate Joey twice: he was surprised at Joey using Scapegoat to avoid a direct attack, complimenting him as “not half bad” (even getting Kaiba to say “I guess” in regards to that), as well as when Joey got back up from having his Alligator Sword destroyed and feeling the effects due to the Shadow Game. Other than that, Marik never faltered. He also purposely left Joey’s monsters (Panther Warrior and Rocket Warrior) on the field in order to make Joey suffer more rather than destroying them with his Drillago, showing how he was indeed toying with him.

Episode 126: This episode really hammered home the idea of Marik prolonging the duel in order to torture Joey. He drew The Winged Dragon of Ra early into this episode, but decided Joey wasn’t worth it and so kept it in his hand. His Helpoemer continued to be a thorn in Joey’s side, made worse with the addition of Coffin Seller. Nightmare Wheel and Plasma Eel in conjunction was icing on the cake to drain Joey of his stamina. Marik would’ve concluded the duel with Malevolent Catastrophe had Joey not lucked into Question to resurrect Jinzo. At one point, Joey remarked he was being played left and right, showing that he recognized Marik had the upper hand. Marik continued to control the duel this episode apart from the one turn Jinzo was on the field (which Joey couldn’t even capitalize on due to Dark Wall of Wind), after which he regained control with Lava Golem.

Episode 127: Joey finally began to fight back by using Graceful Dice to get rid of Marik’s Plasma Eels and summon Gilford the Lightning, which Yugi claimed was a “brilliant strategy.” Marik also complimented Joey for lasting as long as he was, considering all of the torture he’d been put through. However, Marik still never truly lost control of the duel, as he protected himself from Gilford’s attack while simultaneously beginning his plan to summon The Winged Dragon of Ra (which goes to show that he had begun to take Joey more seriously). Granted, Marik luck-sacked Monster Reborn, but considering his opponent, it’s not that bad.

Episode 128: This is the piece everyone cites when they claim Joey should’ve beaten Marik. Admittedly, he could have, but nobody – not even Yugi – thought Joey would’ve survived The Winged Dragon of Ra’s field nuke. Marik didn’t use point-to-point transfer either, so he still spared Joey some more pain; it wouldn’t have won the duel for him, only putting Joey at 301 Life Points, but it would’ve been basically a second attack from Ra. This episode had Joey gaining Kaiba’s respect for once, too.

So there you have it. In my book, Joey never could've beaten Marik. Marik had the duel under control the entire time, apart from a few minor hiccups, and he wasn't even taking it seriously. The only person he took semi-seriously while dueling was Yugi, which you can tell by how his strategies become more intelligent and long-term. I don't understand the folks that say Joey dueled circles around Marik. They watched a different duel than I did, apparently. Every time Joey got an attack in, Marik either allowed it to happen or had a card to protect himself. Every time Joey managed to counter one of Marik's plans (like Lava Golem), Marik countered right back.

 

[Uchiha]

How about Marik vs Kaiba?

Who is the better duelist

 

[Uchiha]

How about Marik vs Kaiba?

Who is the better duelist

 

[Pyro]

Off the top of my head, Kaiba is a much more skilled duelist. He can be somewhat predictable with his Blue-Eyes White Dragons, which is why Yugi beat him at Battle City, but otherwise he's probably the most calculating and mindful duelist out of everyone (Yugi relies too much on destiny). Who would win in a duel is up for debate, depending on which point in the series Kaiba is from. BC Kaiba couldn't beat BC Marik because of Ra, and Kaiba knew this, so he tried to get Slifer from Yugi rather than going after Marik from the start.

 

[SSJ2]

Was Marik only good because of Ra? I can't recall if he was a good duelist prior.

 

[Pyro]

Was Marik only good because of Ra? I can't recall if he was a good duelist prior.

No. That's a dumb misconception. His only duels before his transformation were through possession with Strings and Joey, where he had a God Card with the former and blatantly cheated with the latter, so it doesn't really paint him in a good light. That to me says he was inferior to Yugi, and by default Kaiba as well. On his own, prior to turning evil and without Ra, it's somewhat difficult to pinpoint how good he was. Odion was impressive against Joey, and Ishizu wasn't really anything great without her Millennium Necklace cheating for her. I think it was said in one of the episodes that Odion used to let Marik win when they were children, but I don't remember if we ever got anything to say that ranking ever changed. I can agree with Marik being inferior to Odion, and by extension Kaiba and Yugi, but I have a hard time believing he'd lose to Joey. Perhaps he'd be more on par with the likes of Mai, who contrary to common belief, is a good duelist, just shat on with bad match-ups.

With Yami Marik, he was intelligent evil, although not in the same sense as Kaiba. He knew Mai would try to take his God Card, he knew Bakura would try the same, he had Joey under control even without the use of Ra, and he strung Yugi along for most of their duel as well. He was not a man to be taken lightly. Clearly he was superior to his light half, and by a noticeable amount. Yami Marik, without Ra, should at least be superior to Odion, who should only be behind Kaiba and Yugi at BC. He had brutal strategies and didn't need Ra; he only used Ra to make an example of someone (Mai, Bakura, Joey), or if he felt it was really necessary (Yugi).

Basically, normal Marik was somewhat naive and rash in his decisions, but he did show shades of thoughtfulness and skill in his handicap duel with Bakura against his dark half when he warned Bakura to stop wasting all of their Life Points. On the other hand, Yami Marik was a sadistic bastard that immediately improved his deck with better cards and utilized more thought-out tactics.

Yami Marik (with Ra) >>> Yugi (with Slifer & Obelisk) > Yugi >=< Kaiba > Yami Marik (without Ra) > Odion >= Mai ~ Marik > Joey

 

[Papasmurf]

Yami Marik in the anime is strange because in censoring the manga's gory duel between him and Mai the anime added a lot of shitty misplays on his part, like summoning Des Gardius and not even paying any mind to the possibility of a trap card Mai set on the field, losing over 1000 life points off the bat, etc. Then against Bakura, Joey and Yugi his IQ soared off the charts by comparison pretty much.

I still think Yami-Marik was a decent Duelist overall, managing to string Yugi along into playing Slifer and Obelisk in succession and only having been caught off guard by absurd card effects like Magical Dimension/Ragnarok and the fatal nature of Jinzo being played where he had a field full of trap cards.

 

[Animelover5487]

Was Marik only good because of Ra? I can't recall if he was a good duelist prior.

No. That's a dumb misconception. His only duels before his transformation were through possession with Strings and Joey, where he had a God Card with the former and blatantly cheated with the latter, so it doesn't really paint him in a good light. That to me says he was inferior to Yugi, and by default Kaiba as well. On his own, prior to turning evil and without Ra, it's somewhat difficult to pinpoint how good he was. Odion was impressive against Joey, and Ishizu wasn't really anything great without her Millennium Necklace cheating for her. I think it was said in one of the episodes that Odion used to let Marik win when they were children, but I don't remember if we ever got anything to say that ranking ever changed. I can agree with Marik being inferior to Odion, and by extension Kaiba and Yugi, but I have a hard time believing he'd lose to Joey. Perhaps he'd be more on par with the likes of Mai, who contrary to common belief, is a good duelist, just shat on with bad match-ups.

With Yami Marik, he was intelligent evil, although not in the same sense as Kaiba. He knew Mai would try to take his God Card, he knew Bakura would try the same, he had Joey under control even without the use of Ra, and he strung Yugi along for most of their duel as well. He was not a man to be taken lightly. Clearly he was superior to his light half, and by a noticeable amount. Yami Marik, without Ra, should at least be superior to Odion, who should only be behind Kaiba and Yugi at BC. He had brutal strategies and didn't need Ra; he only used Ra to make an example of someone (Mai, Bakura, Joey), or if he felt it was really necessary (Yugi).

Basically, normal Marik was somewhat naive and rash in his decisions, but he did show shades of thoughtfulness and skill in his handicap duel with Bakura against his dark half when he warned Bakura to stop wasting all of their Life Points. On the other hand, Yami Marik was a sadistic bastard that immediately improved his deck with better cards and utilized more thought-out tactics.

Yami Marik (with Ra) >>> Yugi (with Slifer & Obelisk) > Yugi >=< Kaiba > Yami Marik (without Ra) > Odion >= Mai ~ Marik > Joey

I wouldn't put Mai over Joey. Although Marik was really toying with both of them but Marik's duel with Joey looks closer than Mai's or at least Marik took Joey more seriously than he did Mai. Also, didn't Mai say in the DOMA arc that Joey was better than her before the Orichlacos. In fact even with the Orichalcos Mai would have likely lost to a Joey who was holding back for most of the duel before he was down to his last 200 LP if it wasn't for Valon, and I doubt Joey got leagues better.

 

[Pyro]

Was Marik only good because of Ra? I can't recall if he was a good duelist prior.

No. That's a dumb misconception. His only duels before his transformation were through possession with Strings and Joey, where he had a God Card with the former and blatantly cheated with the latter, so it doesn't really paint him in a good light. That to me says he was inferior to Yugi, and by default Kaiba as well. On his own, prior to turning evil and without Ra, it's somewhat difficult to pinpoint how good he was. Odion was impressive against Joey, and Ishizu wasn't really anything great without her Millennium Necklace cheating for her. I think it was said in one of the episodes that Odion used to let Marik win when they were children, but I don't remember if we ever got anything to say that ranking ever changed. I can agree with Marik being inferior to Odion, and by extension Kaiba and Yugi, but I have a hard time believing he'd lose to Joey. Perhaps he'd be more on par with the likes of Mai, who contrary to common belief, is a good duelist, just shat on with bad match-ups.

With Yami Marik, he was intelligent evil, although not in the same sense as Kaiba. He knew Mai would try to take his God Card, he knew Bakura would try the same, he had Joey under control even without the use of Ra, and he strung Yugi along for most of their duel as well. He was not a man to be taken lightly. Clearly he was superior to his light half, and by a noticeable amount. Yami Marik, without Ra, should at least be superior to Odion, who should only be behind Kaiba and Yugi at BC. He had brutal strategies and didn't need Ra; he only used Ra to make an example of someone (Mai, Bakura, Joey), or if he felt it was really necessary (Yugi).

Basically, normal Marik was somewhat naive and rash in his decisions, but he did show shades of thoughtfulness and skill in his handicap duel with Bakura against his dark half when he warned Bakura to stop wasting all of their Life Points. On the other hand, Yami Marik was a sadistic bastard that immediately improved his deck with better cards and utilized more thought-out tactics.

Yami Marik (with Ra) >>> Yugi (with Slifer & Obelisk) > Yugi >=< Kaiba > Yami Marik (without Ra) > Odion >= Mai ~ Marik > Joey

I wouldn't put Mai over Joey. Although Marik was really toying with both of them but Marik's duel with Joey looks closer than Mai's or at least Marik took Joey more seriously than he did Mai. Also, didn't Mai say in the DOMA arc that Joey was better than her before the Orichlacos. In fact even with the Orichalcos Mai would have likely lost to a Joey who was holding back for most of the duel before he was down to his last 200 LP if it wasn't for Valon, and I doubt Joey got leagues better.

In their rematch, Joey recalled their first duel and said he could've very well lost had it continued. Mai never outright admitted Joey was better than her. She explained that she took the Orichalcos because she wanted to never lose, to be able to beat "you guys" (referring to Joey, Yugi, and Kaiba presumably). I guess you could take that to mean she considered herself inferior to Joey, but it didn't seem that way to me. During Battle City, she was still held up to be one of the best around, while Joey was still on a learning curve and not quite considered an elite duelist yet. Maybe she simply viewed him surviving Ra's attack as him being the superior person. Who knows.

 

[Animelover5487]

No. That's a dumb misconception. His only duels before his transformation were through possession with Strings and Joey, where he had a God Card with the former and blatantly cheated with the latter, so it doesn't really paint him in a good light. That to me says he was inferior to Yugi, and by default Kaiba as well. On his own, prior to turning evil and without Ra, it's somewhat difficult to pinpoint how good he was. Odion was impressive against Joey, and Ishizu wasn't really anything great without her Millennium Necklace cheating for her. I think it was said in one of the episodes that Odion used to let Marik win when they were children, but I don't remember if we ever got anything to say that ranking ever changed. I can agree with Marik being inferior to Odion, and by extension Kaiba and Yugi, but I have a hard time believing he'd lose to Joey. Perhaps he'd be more on par with the likes of Mai, who contrary to common belief, is a good duelist, just shat on with bad match-ups.

With Yami Marik, he was intelligent evil, although not in the same sense as Kaiba. He knew Mai would try to take his God Card, he knew Bakura would try the same, he had Joey under control even without the use of Ra, and he strung Yugi along for most of their duel as well. He was not a man to be taken lightly. Clearly he was superior to his light half, and by a noticeable amount. Yami Marik, without Ra, should at least be superior to Odion, who should only be behind Kaiba and Yugi at BC. He had brutal strategies and didn't need Ra; he only used Ra to make an example of someone (Mai, Bakura, Joey), or if he felt it was really necessary (Yugi).

Basically, normal Marik was somewhat naive and rash in his decisions, but he did show shades of thoughtfulness and skill in his handicap duel with Bakura against his dark half when he warned Bakura to stop wasting all of their Life Points. On the other hand, Yami Marik was a sadistic bastard that immediately improved his deck with better cards and utilized more thought-out tactics.

Yami Marik (with Ra) >>> Yugi (with Slifer & Obelisk) > Yugi >=< Kaiba > Yami Marik (without Ra) > Odion >= Mai ~ Marik > Joey

I wouldn't put Mai over Joey. Although Marik was really toying with both of them but Marik's duel with Joey looks closer than Mai's or at least Marik took Joey more seriously than he did Mai. Also, didn't Mai say in the DOMA arc that Joey was better than her before the Orichlacos. In fact even with the Orichalcos Mai would have likely lost to a Joey who was holding back for most of the duel before he was down to his last 200 LP if it wasn't for Valon, and I doubt Joey got leagues better.

In their rematch, Joey recalled their first duel and said he could've very well lost had it continued. Mai never outright admitted Joey was better than her. She explained that she took the Orichalcos because she wanted to never lose, to be able to beat "you guys" (referring to Joey, Yugi, and Kaiba presumably). I guess you could take that to mean she considered herself inferior to Joey, but it didn't seem that way to me. During Battle City, she was still held up to be one of the best around, while Joey was still on a learning curve and not quite considered an elite duelist yet. Maybe she simply viewed him surviving Ra's attack as him being the superior person. Who knows.

Joey would have only lost because he spent so much of the duel trying to reason with Mai rather than fight her and let her take so much of his life points. Compare that performance to their rematch where he's pulling off OP combos, tributing two of his scapegoats to use the double magical arm shield to target two of Mai's harpies and then activating a trap that prevents them all from attacking then tributing all his monsters to wipe Mai's field clean and take out most of her life points in one setting was pretty brilliant. Although he ultimately loses in the end it seemed to me like his duel with Valon might have affected his concentration (he says that he's so fatigued that he can barely see his cards straight) so I have reason to believe a Fresh, Full Powered Joey could beat Mai.

As for the Battle City tournament, I would argue Joey was already a top tier duelist. He beat former regional champs like Weevil and Mako Tsunami. Mai wasn't one of the best duelists, she was the weakest duelist in the finals. Yugi, Kaiba and Marik would stomp her, Odion beats her, Ishizu beats her (she would have beat Kaiba if Marik's rod didn't show him all those visions of the Blue Eyes), Bakura beats her (he would have beat Yami Yugi hadn't it been for Slifer). Mai was better than guys like Weevil, Rex or Keith but still has quite a way to go before she could have been called the best.

 

[Pyro]

I wouldn't put Mai over Joey. Although Marik was really toying with both of them but Marik's duel with Joey looks closer than Mai's or at least Marik took Joey more seriously than he did Mai. Also, didn't Mai say in the DOMA arc that Joey was better than her before the Orichlacos. In fact even with the Orichalcos Mai would have likely lost to a Joey who was holding back for most of the duel before he was down to his last 200 LP if it wasn't for Valon, and I doubt Joey got leagues better.

In their rematch, Joey recalled their first duel and said he could've very well lost had it continued. Mai never outright admitted Joey was better than her. She explained that she took the Orichalcos because she wanted to never lose, to be able to beat "you guys" (referring to Joey, Yugi, and Kaiba presumably). I guess you could take that to mean she considered herself inferior to Joey, but it didn't seem that way to me. During Battle City, she was still held up to be one of the best around, while Joey was still on a learning curve and not quite considered an elite duelist yet. Maybe she simply viewed him surviving Ra's attack as him being the superior person. Who knows.

Joey would have only lost because he spent so much of the duel trying to reason with Mai rather than fight her and let her take so much of his life points. Compare that performance to their rematch where he's pulling off OP combos, tributing two of his scapegoats to use the double magical arm shield to target two of Mai's harpies and then activating a trap that prevents them all from attacking then tributing all his monsters to wipe Mai's field clean and take out most of her life points in one setting was pretty brilliant. Although he ultimately loses in the end it seemed to me like his duel with Valon might have affected his concentration (he says that he's so fatigued that he can barely see his cards straight) so I have reason to believe a Fresh, Full Powered Joey could beat Mai.

I don't disagree that Joey was noticeably superior to Mai in the Orichalcos arc. Their second duel really showcased that when he was holding his own and countering her broken cards, despite barely being able to see and stand up due to the damage inflicted by Valon previously. Mai was arguably the weakest of the relevant duelists in that arc, only beating out Allister due to the latter's horrible performance against Kaiba in their rematch on the plane.

As for the Battle City tournament, I would argue Joey was already a top tier duelist. He beat former regional champs like Weevil and Mako Tsunami. Mai wasn't one of the best duelists, she was the weakest duelist in the finals. Yugi, Kaiba and Marik would stomp her, Odion beats her, Ishizu beats her (she would have beat Kaiba if Marik's rod didn't show him all those visions of the Blue Eyes), Bakura beats her (he would have beat Yami Yugi hadn't it been for Slifer). Mai was better than guys like Weevil, Rex or Keith but still has quite a way to go before she could have been called the best.

I don't really disagree with this either, but Joey owed most of his victories to pure luck-sacking in order to get around his opponent's strategies. He didn't really have strategies of his own, and was always more or less backed into a corner waiting for the right card rather than taking the offensive. While it's true Mai was one of the weakest finalists, I'd argue she could at least take down Ishizu and Bakura. Ishizu without her Millennium Necklace isn't really anything worthwhile (of course, if we're allowing her that, then obviously Mai would fall because she wouldn't have Ancient Egypt to protect her), and Bakura only had Yugi on the ropes because Yugi stupidly fell for his trap, which is the only reason Bakura ever gets one up on his opponents. Mai has Harpy Feather Duster to rid the field of Dark Sanctuary and Destiny Board, so I wouldn't place my money on Bakura if the two had faced each other.

 

[Animelover5487]

Yugi luck sacks in quite a bit of his duels too (Heart of the Cards guide me ala getting exactly what you need at exactly the right time). Using Marik's coffin seller strategy against him by forcing him to guess the first card he sent to Joey's grave looked like a strategy, Using his graceful dice to increase the attack of Marik's plasma eel to destroy Marik's machine duplication and free his monsters looked like a stategy. He may not be a genius like Kaiba who calculates his moves in advance but I think he's at least descent when it comes to thinking on his feet. Ishizu wasn't using her necklace to cheat, her necklace only tells her what happens in the future something she admits can't be change. Kaiba was just destined to lose the duel until Marik's rod intervened. As for Bakura you could have a point on him.

BTW, how would you rank Zigfried? I was recently watching the Grand Championship and Zigfried seemed like such a monster. He OTK one-shotted both Weevil and Rex at the same time (and judging by how haxed their opening play was I think they at least kept their Orichalcos power up), dominated Joey and dominated Kaiba for a large portion of their duel. I think he would stomp all of Battle City with or without god cards. He can use that combo he used to look at the top cards of Marik's deck, sees Ra, puts Ra at the top and then banishes it. GG Marik.

 

[Papasmurf]

Didn't Zigfried get raped against Kaiba? Maybe that was due to Chaos Emperor Dragon, but on a whole the show seems to want to paint him to be weaker than Obelisk-less Kaiba

 

[Pyro]

Yugi luck sacks in quite a bit of his duels too (Heart of the Cards guide me ala getting exactly what you need at exactly the right time).

True, he's one of the biggest cheaters, but he comes up with legitimate strategies far more than Joey does.

Using Marik's coffin seller strategy against him by forcing him to guess the first card he sent to Joey's grave looked like a strategy, Using his graceful dice to increase the attack of Marik's plasma eel to destroy Marik's machine duplication and free his monsters looked like a stategy. He may not be a genius like Kaiba who calculates his moves in advance but I think he's at least descent when it comes to thinking on his feet.

I agree to an extent. He is fairly good at thinking on his feet, but he doesn't think long-term or of the consequences of his moves sometimes, which is what I meant. He doesn't have a goal in mind other than surviving and hopefully winning, whereas guys like Yugi and Kaiba have multiple endgame situations running through their heads, which is what puts them above him, aside from just plain superior skill. Joey just wasn't up to par with them yet during Battle City. I mean, the fact that he wasn't smart enough to take Parasite Paracide out of his deck until after dueling Mako is a big dumb mark on his record, something the smarter duelists never would've committed.

Ishizu wasn't using her necklace to cheat, her necklace only tells her what happens in the future something she admits can't be change. Kaiba was just destined to lose the duel until Marik's rod intervened. As for Bakura you could have a point on him.

If the necklace told her how the duel would go, wouldn't you consider that cheating? She knew exactly which cards Kaiba would play and in which order, which is how she countered his Virus Combo and turned it against him. That combo would've raped anyone else (other than Yugi and Marik, of course).

BTW, how would you rank Zigfried? I was recently watching the Grand Championship and Zigfried seemed like such a monster. He OTK one-shotted both Weevil and Rex at the same time (and judging by how haxed their opening play was I think they at least kept their Orichalcos power up), dominated Joey and dominated Kaiba for a large portion of their duel. I think he would stomp all of Battle City with or without god cards. He can use that combo he used to look at the top cards of Marik's deck, sees Ra, puts Ra at the top and then banishes it. GG Marik.

He did own Weevil and Rex simultaneously, but his duel with Joey was mostly Joey's fault. The guy started with a totally shit hand, and most of his luck cards backfired/didn't work, like Graceful Dice and Compensation Mediation. However, he did manage to get Ziggy down to 100LP, which is kind of impressive.

Kaiba and Ziggy weren't as closely matched IMO. It may have looked like Kaiba was in trouble quite often, with Ziggy's swarming abilities, but he was planning his RFG strategy the whole time, and in the end he completely wrecked Ziggy. Kaiba accurately predicting his use of Spells with Magical Alms showed he had a masterful grip on his deck, and basically knew what he was doing from the start. Ziggy never truly had a chance of winning, but that could just be my POV.

As far as rating Ziggy, I'd say he could beat anyone from Battle City (Marik is somewhat debatable, but the RFG shenanigans are hard to beat even with Ra) and all the Orichalcos Warriors aside from Rafael. Still not up there with Yugi and Kaiba, but clearly on par with Joey at worst, and that's still better than most everyone else.

 

[Animelover5487]

Yugi luck sacks in quite a bit of his duels too (Heart of the Cards guide me ala getting exactly what you need at exactly the right time).

True, he's one of the biggest cheaters, but he comes up with legitimate strategies far more than Joey does.

Using Marik's coffin seller strategy against him by forcing him to guess the first card he sent to Joey's grave looked like a strategy, Using his graceful dice to increase the attack of Marik's plasma eel to destroy Marik's machine duplication and free his monsters looked like a stategy. He may not be a genius like Kaiba who calculates his moves in advance but I think he's at least descent when it comes to thinking on his feet.

I agree to an extent. He is fairly good at thinking on his feet, but he doesn't think long-term or of the consequences of his moves sometimes, which is what I meant. He doesn't have a goal in mind other than surviving and hopefully winning, whereas guys like Yugi and Kaiba have multiple endgame situations running through their heads, which is what puts them above him, aside from just plain superior skill. Joey just wasn't up to par with them yet during Battle City. I mean, the fact that he wasn't smart enough to take Parasite Paracide out of his deck until after dueling Mako is a big dumb mark on his record, something the smarter duelists never would've committed.

Ishizu wasn't using her necklace to cheat, her necklace only tells her what happens in the future something she admits can't be change. Kaiba was just destined to lose the duel until Marik's rod intervened. As for Bakura you could have a point on him.

If the necklace told her how the duel would go, wouldn't you consider that cheating? She knew exactly which cards Kaiba would play and in which order, which is how she countered his Virus Combo and turned it against him. That combo would've raped anyone else (other than Yugi and Marik, of course).

BTW, how would you rank Zigfried? I was recently watching the Grand Championship and Zigfried seemed like such a monster. He OTK one-shotted both Weevil and Rex at the same time (and judging by how haxed their opening play was I think they at least kept their Orichalcos power up), dominated Joey and dominated Kaiba for a large portion of their duel. I think he would stomp all of Battle City with or without god cards. He can use that combo he used to look at the top cards of Marik's deck, sees Ra, puts Ra at the top and then banishes it. GG Marik.

He did own Weevil and Rex simultaneously, but his duel with Joey was mostly Joey's fault. The guy started with a totally shit hand, and most of his luck cards backfired/didn't work, like Graceful Dice and Compensation Mediation. However, he did manage to get Ziggy down to 100LP, which is kind of impressive.

Kaiba and Ziggy weren't as closely matched IMO. It may have looked like Kaiba was in trouble quite often, with Ziggy's swarming abilities, but he was planning his RFG strategy the whole time, and in the end he completely wrecked Ziggy. Kaiba accurately predicting his use of Spells with Magical Alms showed he had a masterful grip on his deck, and basically knew what he was doing from the start. Ziggy never truly had a chance of winning, but that could just be my POV.

As far as rating Ziggy, I'd say he could beat anyone from Battle City (Marik is somewhat debatable, but the RFG shenanigans are hard to beat even with Ra) and all the Orichalcos Warriors aside from Rafael. Still not up there with Yugi and Kaiba, but clearly on par with Joey at worst, and that's still better than most everyone else.

I agree with all of this for the most part. How does this chain look:

Yugi Moto >= Yami Yugi (with God Cards) > Dartz > Yami Yugi (without God Cards) >= Kaiba > Yami Bakura > Raphael > Zigfried >= Joey Wheeler >= Yami Marik > Valon > Orichalcos Mai > Alister > Marik Ishtar > Odion > Orichalcos Weevil >= Orichalcos Rex

 

[Pyro]

@Animelover5487

Why do you put Orichalcos Weevil & Rex so low? I'm merely curious as to your reasoning. I don't necessarily disagree. I've just heard others highly defend those two, claiming they gave Orichalcos Joey & Yami Yugi a lot of trouble.

 

[Animelover5487]

@Animelover5487

Why do you put Orichalcos Weevil & Rex so low? I'm merely curious as to your reasoning. I don't necessarily disagree. I've just heard others highly defend those two, claiming they gave Orichalcos Joey & Yami Yugi a lot of trouble.

It's not that. I just don't think they improved enough after the Orichalcos to beat Odion who I think is right behind the good Marik in dueling skills. Odion runs almost zero monsters so I don't think Weevil's insect barrier + dna surgery combo will do him much good against Odion. As for Rex he has plenty of beat-sticks but I don't recall him having any cards that can work around haxed trap cards.

 

[Pyro]

@Animelover5487

Why do you put Orichalcos Weevil & Rex so low? I'm merely curious as to your reasoning. I don't necessarily disagree. I've just heard others highly defend those two, claiming they gave Orichalcos Joey & Yami Yugi a lot of trouble.

It's not that. I just don't think they improved enough after the Orichalcos to beat Odion who I think is right behind the good Marik in dueling skills. Odion runs almost zero monsters so I don't think Weevil's insect barrier + dna surgery combo will do him much good against Odion. As for Rex he has plenty of beat-sticks but I don't recall him having any cards that can work around haxed trap cards.

I can agree with that.

 

[kriss-]

Joey stomps.

 

[Pyro]

I can't tell if you're ironically trolling, or legitimately didn't read the thread, or are using Joey from the end of the series.