Misconceptions about SSJ Kid Gohan

[p123]

I believe that all of the power issues to do with Gohan have more to do with him being a kid more than anything. Everything is there in terms of power, but Gohan's unwillingness to fight and everyone's concern for him have all to do with Gohan the kid, not Gohan's power. Here I present the evidence.





Point 1 Gohan is treated with kid gloves and his tremendous power isn't the first thing that comes to mind.



Cell: “Son Goku…You’re as accustomed to battle as I’d expect…You’re quite different from the others…â€￾


Cell is enamored with Goku. Cell considers Goku to be on a whole different level and respects him as a warrior. This is what Cell has wanted, to be truly tested as a warrior. Cell is of the same warrior class mentality that Piccolo, Goku and Vegeta are from. Trunks is seen as a fool in terms of combat by all of them. So of course, little baby Gohan would be a joke.

Also, everyone else loves Gohan as a kid, so they are more concerned for his safety. The emotions completely alter what one would say and do if Goku or Vegeta had Gohan's power. It would be a completely different ballgame.




Point 2 Gohan is not blown away by his father's power, at all.

Chapter: 398 (DBZ 204), P7.1-3
Context: everyone gawking at Goku’s full power
Kuririn: “This really is an incredible ki…! It figures he’d outstrip everyone.â€￾
Gohan: “…Why is everyone so surprised…I think he really is incredible, but…â€￾





Point 3 Cell wants an epic warrior blood bath with the best martial artist ever.



Chapter: 398 (DBZ 204), P14.4-5
Context: after Goku fights Cell at full power for a bit
Cell: “Excellent, Son Goku! This is it! Battles aren’t interesting unless [the fighters’] true power is close to a certain extent like this.â€￾
Goku: “Yeah…I think so too.â€￾



Cell's full power blows away everyone. Goku is a turd compared to him, there is really little difference between Goku and the rest of the scrubs concerning Cell's true power. Cell is here to go mano-e-mano in a clash of wills with Goku. Which is why Cell only powers up enough to have an edge over Goku and give himself an entertaining battle.


Chapter: 400 (DBZ 206), P4.2-3
Context: Goku and Cell continue to fight
Kuririn: “Th-they’re both so fast…â€￾
Cell: “You really are good, aren’t you?...Frankly I didn’t think I’d be able to have so much fun.â€￾



Chapter: 402 (DBZ 208), P6.4
Context: after Cell blocks Goku’s attacks with a barrier
Cell: “That attack of yours was quite impressive. It even forced me to put up a barrier. The damage was surprisingly large…â€￾



Cell is constantly marveling at Goku, his ability and power. Fighting Goku is a dream come true.



Chapter: 402 (DBZ 208), P8.3
Cell: “Looks like you’ve lost quite a lot of stamina…It’s alright if you eat one of those ‘senzu’ things, Son Goku…This should be able to become an even more magnificent match.â€￾



Even though it's clear Cell is way out of Goku's league, he is enjoying himself so much he will continue to entertain himself with a much weaker opponent.




Point 4 Gohan is a beast

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P2.3-4
Context: after Gohan powers up
Vegeta: “That brat…How did he get such a gigantic battle power?…This is impossible…!â€￾
Cell: “Looks like what Son Goku said wasn’t a complete bluff…But it seems he overstated things a little when he said you could defeat me…â€￾

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P14.2
Context: after Gohan isn’t fazed much by Cell’s attack
Cell: “..Well, this is a surprise…You’re exceptionally tough, aren’t you?…â€￾



Point 5 Now that the shine of his bromance is over, Cell's real thoughts show. Cell speaks about a completely superior power to Goku as if he's trash. Which he is in terms of Cell's true abilities.


Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P15.4, P16.1
Cell: “I understand perfectly well that you don’t like fighting …But I don’t really know what you mean when you say that you don’t want to kill me. You couldn’t kill me in a hundred years. Well, am I wrong?â€￾

 

[Clearin]

I disagree. I've always felt I've held an unpopular opinion when it comes to not placing Gohan far above Goku (or at all - I'm undecided).

It's worse when people say Gohan thought Goku's performance was "trash". He doesn't say that at all. He says he thought Goku was holding back, because in his mind, his father has always had this completely unobtainable power. Goku's always been Gohan's hero, the guy who comes into the battlefield to save everyone else. The idea of catching up to his power at less than half his age is unbelievable to him.

And as you said, Cell wants to get rid of Gohan as quickly as possible so Goku can fight again. It isn't until he hears about Gohan's hidden powers that he actually gives Gohan any kind of attention.

However Cell does say that what Goku said "didn't seem like a complete bluff", which in my opinion would mean Gohan had the best chance of beating Cell (which was Goku's point), but then goes on to say that he still didn't have any chance. There's no mention of Cell powering up between Goku and Gohan, so Gohan fits best in the small gap between Goku and Cell at the time. If I were to put it in numbers I'd probably say something like:
Goku: 100
Cell: 110-115
Gohan: 105-110

The one thing that is truly impressive about Gohan is his durability. The problem is, that alone doesn't say anything about his actual power level. We know Gohan can survive things far beyond his PL would suggest. We know this because, regardless of whether Gohan is 5% higher than Goku, or even 100% higher, Cell thought his attack would kill Gohan. It didn't. That's all there is to that. It says nothing about Gohan's power, just his survivability in relation to his power.

I need to proof-read before I post. Keep making mistakes and making redundant sentences "In his mind....in Gohan's mind", really?

 

[Six Trails]

I've always felt I've held an unpopular opinion when it comes to not placing Gohan far above Goku (or at all - I'm undecided).

Regardless of the gap, Gohan is objectively stronger than Goku. The chapter title says Gohan surpasses Goku.

 

[Clearin]

I've always felt I've held an unpopular opinion when it comes to not placing Gohan far above Goku (or at all - I'm undecided).

Regardless of the gap, Gohan is objectively stronger than Goku. The chapter title says Gohan surpasses Goku.

Ah okay, don't remember that. Well that's fine, I still think fitting him between Goku and Cell is good anyway, there just isn't much room in that gap, so it doesn't allow for a huge advantage.

 

[p123]

I guess you didn't read my post Clearin?

Cell wanting to fight Goku instead of Gohan after Gohan reveals a superior battle power goes to show you what he really thinks of Goku's battle power. What he's interested in is Goku's combat skills. Goku's power is pitiful compared to Cell's true power. Which is why Goku quits because he knows Cell has a lot more in reserve, he says that he's no fool and see's how strong Cell is now.

So that's one major thing I wanted to clear the air on. Cell wanting to fight Goku after witnessing Gohan's power doesn't say anything about Gohan being close to Goku, it just goes to show you that without the mystique, Goku's power is not interesting. It is Goku the fighter that interests him, not Goku the power.

 

[ahill1]

Good reakdown P. If Goku is 100 where you'd have Gohan?

 

[Clearin]

I guess you didn't read my post Clearin?

Cell wanting to fight Goku instead of Gohan after Gohan reveals a superior battle power goes to show you what he really thinks of Goku's battle power. What he's interested in is Goku's combat skills. Goku's power is pitiful compared to Cell's true power. Which is why Goku quits because he knows Cell has a lot more in reserve, he says that he's no fool and see's how strong Cell is now.

So that's one major thing I wanted to clear the air on. Cell wanting to fight Goku after witnessing Gohan's power doesn't say anything about Gohan being close to Goku, it just goes to show you that without the mystique, Goku's power is not interesting. It is Goku the fighter that interests him, not Goku the power.

But then why would he pay all his attention to Gohan after finding out about his hidden powers? He still doesn't think Gohan will have any chance, but he's still obsessed with releasing them. That suggests to me Cell is looking for power rather than straight up skill.

But I guess in a way I actually do agree with you, I DO have Gohan stronger than Goku, it's just not by a lot. Enough so that even with Gohan's higher power, Goku's skill is more than enough to make up for the gap. If Gohan was 50% higher than Goku or something, I can't imagine fighting Goku would be more fun at all, there's only so much skill can compensate for a gap like that, and it's pretty much stated with the way Cell wants to fight an enraged Gohan (who he thinks will still be below him).

Edit: Do you have Cell powering up between Goku and Gohan? Because if not then surely Cell's comments about Gohan not being able to beat him prove that Gohan fits in that gap between Goku and Cell @ Goku.

 

[Papasmurf]

I've viewed the gap as a somewhat large distance. Toriyama makes it clear that everyone from Cell to Krillin expected Goku to be the strongest of Cell's challengers by a long shot, a belief that becomes more affirmed with each statement Vegeta and the others make - then with Gohan's full power being shown right afterwards even Piccolo concedes to him being the best despite him objecting the most strongly to Gohan being forced to handle this on his own. Even if I were to have Gohan higher than this Cell, I don't think Gohan would be too much stronger him in this instance of course, but I wouldn't bank that much money on Cell arrogantly dismissing Gohan when he underestimated him so much that he thought he killed him with an attack that didn't even damage him - and kept acting smug until he took a thorough ass kicking from SSJ2 Gohan. It also wouldn't be like Cell to concede to Goku being the inferior if the gap was pretty slight, given how mockingly he behaves around Gohan and how highly he thought of Goku during their battle earlier.

 

[p123]

Well it's a little difficult to figure out. I generally like to have it like this.


Cell ( Vs Goku ) 100
Goku 88-90


Then we have to consider the gap between the Cell who fought Gohan. Everything suggests that Gohan is indeed a beastly power. Everyone confirms it, but it isn't as highlighted as you would think because of Cell's infatuation with Goku and everyone's concern over this little kid having all that weight on his shoulders.

In terms of feats, Gohan seems to pretty nonchalantly evade all of Cell's attacks. I would definitely say that Gohan > Cell by a larger amount than Cell > Goku.

So at minimum we are talking of Gohan at 115.

Let me think on that a little bit more and read over it.

 

[Pyro]

The only problem I have is when people go on about Gohan being 1-10% stronger than Goku. Like, what the hell?

 

[Papasmurf]

I also think that if Toriyama intended for the two to be more similar in power he'd have created a statement like he did with Vegeta and Trunks during the Semi Cell fight, and a number of other instances. Gohan isn't worlds above Goku, but at least reasonably so I would say.

 

[Six Trails]

The point I find easiest to use is PM Vegeta's confidence against expected Goku who trained for 7 years, while still being inferior to Kid Gohan.

BS Goku >~ CG Gohan >~/> PM Vegeta > Goku (expected) > CG Goku

I can't make the work with a minuscule difference between CG Goku and Gohan.

 

[p123]

Clearin, the reason he pays attention to Gohan once he hears about his hidden abilities because something replaces his interest.

Initially Cell does not think anyone can be a true threat to him, but he wants to have an epic showdown with Son Goku, the best martial artist in the universe, a true warrior that Cell can respect like any other.

Cell fulfilling this fantasy fight is way more important than some brat who is only marginally stronger than Goku. He's not interested in the power at all because no one is close.

Now when Gohan speaks about his rage, this suddenly takes over because now Cell has a potential true threat to his complete power. He's desperate to seek it out and he doesn't think about Goku for a second after hearing this.

So basically, Cell had to create a challenge ( a battle of skills ) because their was no true power threat. Once a true power threat came of age, there was no need to play games.

 

[p123]

Well Mike that's why many believe that their indeed was a rage boost. There needs to be something that creates a tremendous gap, a gap that can stand the test of time, yet the Super Saiyan differences don't seem to apply here.

SSJ Gohan did have a slight increase in his power when he got angry, so without a doubt Gohan can get more powerful by getting mad here.

 

[Clearin]

Well it's a little difficult to figure out. I generally like to have it like this.


Cell ( Vs Goku ) 100
Goku 88-90


Then we have to consider the gap between the Cell who fought Gohan. Everything suggests that Gohan is indeed a beastly power. Everyone confirms it, but it isn't as highlighted as you would think because of Cell's infatuation with Goku and everyone's concern over this little kid having all that weight on his shoulders.

In terms of feats, Gohan seems to pretty nonchalantly evade all of Cell's attacks. I would definitely say that Gohan > Cell by a larger amount than Cell > Goku.

So at minimum we are talking of Gohan at 115.

Let me think on that a little bit more and read over it.

It's quite ironic that we have differing opinions on Gohan's power, yet our conclusions come from the same thing.

You think Gohan is insanely ahead of Goku but it isn't drawn upon too much because he's a kid, whereas I think Gohan isn't that far ahead of Goku, but it's made to look bigger because Gohan's a kid and that's what's so shocking about his power. Then again we use the logic for different things, and I do agree that Cell would ignore Gohan due to his power in relation to everyone, regardless of Gohan's power at all.

I'll need to look over the fight myself to get a better grasp but from what I can tell, until Gohan's hidden powers are mentioned there isn't anything particularly clear about his power relating to Goku..

There is two extraordinary things about Gohan - His durability and his speed. But as I mentioned in my first post when referring to durability, this actually doesn't tell us anything about Gohan's power itself. Cell knows Gohan's power, the fact his speed and durability shock Cell only tell us about Gohan's speed and durability in relation to his power. Spending a year in x10 gravity probably made him tougher and faster than his PL would suggest (Gohan in the Boo saga also makes a comment about his speed being great despite being weaker than his foe (Boo) so maybe Gohan's just naturally very fast).

I don't think there's any actual comments on Gohan being massively above Goku though... it's just a bunch of vague comments about people being shocked at Gohan's power. The best we have is Cell saying Goku wasn't bluffing, but at the same time that he doesn't stand a chance vs Cell. It's that reason I put Gohan between Goku and Cell.

If there was any proof Cell powered up between this time I'd be more than happy to make Gohan higher, but not only is it not stated, but considering Cell lied to Goku about that power being his best (as mentioned in one of the quotes you posted), Goku wouldn't have been overstating to say Gohan could beat THAT level of Cell.

But yeah, at the end of the day I think Gohan's status as a child influenced reactions, both overestimating and underestimating from different people.

 

[p123]

Oh I'm not saying there's a massive difference, but it's a solid one. Goku cannot compete with Gohan period.

I feel that Gohan's speed is talked about because of his ability to dodge Cell, not his power not balancing out. Remember he is trained by Goku, Goku would want him balanced.


Goku knew that Cell had massive reserves, it's the reason he quit.

 

[Clearin]

Oh I'm not saying there's a massive difference, but it's a solid one. Goku cannot compete with Gohan period.

I feel that Gohan's speed is talked about because of his ability to dodge Cell, not his power not balancing out. Remember he is trained by Goku, Goku would want him balanced.


Goku knew that Cell had massive reserves, it's the reason he quit.

Cell was above Goku even without any reserves though. Goku does say he doesn't know if Cell was holding back power - which admittedly gives a bit more credit to the idea that Goku knew Cell was holding back considering he didn't buy Cell's bluff. But in the end he was still unsure.

The main point regarding Gohan's speed/durability though is that Cell knew Gohan's power from the start of the match. Unless Gohan was faster than average for his PL why would Cell be shocked that Gohan can dodge his punches?

And is there any evidence that Cell powers up between fighting Goku and Gohan? Because that's basically what my placement of Gohan depends on.

 

[ahill1]

Yea Mike that's the issue with me too. Vegeta is confident in defeat Goku who trained for 7 years, and Bejita knows Goku's potential. But Bejita is still weaker than Gohan, this is insane. I cannot work with a gap less than 66/100 between father and Son. Boo saga suggests a huge gap. But I doubt Toriyama put much thought in this too; Boo saga is a mess.

Though I have to admit that Clearin's point makes sense.

 

[p123]

We know Goku is dead set on Cell having reserves otherwise he wouldn't be banking so hard on Gohan having to become enraged. That's why he gave Cell the sensu. It's all about Gohan enraged vs Cell's full power.

If Goku never gave Cell the sensu, Gohan would be winning easily but Cell would bring the reserves out.

 

[Clearin]

If we bring the Boo saga into it then that'll just turn everyone against me even more If there's any opinion I have less popular than Gohan not being that far above Goku, it's his SSj2 power, and the fact he had a rage boost the entire time, meaning we essentially don't see a regular SSj2 Gohan in the Cell Games. This means I have Goku and Vegeta in the Boo saga far above regular Gohan from the Cell Games, but just a little above rage boosted SSj2 Gohan (or in Pre-Majin Vegeta's case, below).

I used the topic in a debate tournament almost 3 years ago so you can see my reasoning:
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8402687/1/

Might need a bit of updating now, but the idea is still the same.

Then again, even some people who don't give Gohan a rage boost the entire time will give him one during the final beam struggle, so that could just as easily have been the power everyone referred to. It's just that both comments relating them to Gohan came after they turned SSj2, so imo there was something unique about SSj2 Gohan from the Cell Games (aka rage boost) that meant those comments couldn't have been said in regards to base/SSj Goku and Vegeta.

We know Goku is dead set on Cell having reserves otherwise he wouldn't be banking so hard on Gohan having to become enraged. That's why he gave Cell the sensu. It's all about Gohan enraged vs Cell's full power.

If Goku never gave Cell the sensu, Gohan would be winning easily but Cell would bring the reserves out.

How would Gohan have been winning easy? Isn't this about determining if Gohan is above Goku but below Cell? When did it become decided Gohan was definitely stronger than the Cell Goku fought?