Misconceptions about SSJ Kid Gohan

[ahill1]

Oh I'm not saying there's a massive difference, but it's a solid one. Goku cannot compete with Gohan period.

I feel that Gohan's speed is talked about because of his ability to dodge Cell, not his power not balancing out. Remember he is trained by Goku, Goku would want him balanced.


Goku knew that Cell had massive reserves, it's the reason he quit.

Cell was above Goku even without any reserves though. Goku does say he doesn't know if Cell was holding back power - which admittedly gives a bit more credit to the idea that Goku knew Cell was holding back considering he didn't buy Cell's bluff. But in the end he was still unsure.

The main point regarding Gohan's speed/durability though is that Cell knew Gohan's power from the start of the match. Unless Gohan was faster than average for his PL why would Cell be shocked that Gohan can dodge his punches?

And is there any evidence that Cell powers up between fighting Goku and Gohan? Because that's basically what my placement of Gohan depends on.

Well Cell knew Gohan's SS2 power and yet was impressed that Gohan could beat him that easily.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Cell wanting to fight Goku instead of Gohan doesn't have to necessarily mean Gohan isn't that much stronger than Goku, after-all they are both still a lot of weaker than Cell either-way you look at it.

Goku is just more ready to fight, and might be more skilled, so Cell can lower his power down to Goku, and still have a good fight. That doesn't have to mean Gohan is only a bit stronger than Goku, but ye.

 

[Clearin]

Oh I'm not saying there's a massive difference, but it's a solid one. Goku cannot compete with Gohan period.

I feel that Gohan's speed is talked about because of his ability to dodge Cell, not his power not balancing out. Remember he is trained by Goku, Goku would want him balanced.


Goku knew that Cell had massive reserves, it's the reason he quit.

Cell was above Goku even without any reserves though. Goku does say he doesn't know if Cell was holding back power - which admittedly gives a bit more credit to the idea that Goku knew Cell was holding back considering he didn't buy Cell's bluff. But in the end he was still unsure.

The main point regarding Gohan's speed/durability though is that Cell knew Gohan's power from the start of the match. Unless Gohan was faster than average for his PL why would Cell be shocked that Gohan can dodge his punches?

And is there any evidence that Cell powers up between fighting Goku and Gohan? Because that's basically what my placement of Gohan depends on.

Well Cell knew Gohan's SS2 power and yet was impressed that Gohan could beat him that easily.

You make a good point. To be honest I've always found that odd in general. Cell didn't seem to know he was outclassed for waaay too long. My best bet is just straight up denial.

 

[Kyo]

How would Gohan have been winning easy? Isn't this about determining if Gohan is above Goku but below Cell? When did it become decided Gohan was definitely stronger than the Cell Goku fought?

He meant Cell if Goku had never given him senzu. His chi had dropped from the Insta-KHH and was stated to be dropping further like Goku's.

 

[Clearin]

How would Gohan have been winning easy? Isn't this about determining if Gohan is above Goku but below Cell? When did it become decided Gohan was definitely stronger than the Cell Goku fought?

He meant Cell if Goku had never given him senzu. His chi had dropped from the Insta-KHH and was stated to be dropping further like Goku's.

I guess. We still have a situation where Goku himself should be able to beat Cell now if he takes a senzu bean (and couldn't power up more), yet he still says to Gohan he doesn't know if Cell was using his full power. Maybe he just said that to Gohan to not scare him?

 

[Southern Gothic]

Cell wanting to fight Goku instead of Gohan doesn't have to necessarily mean Gohan isn't that much stronger than Goku, after-all they are both still a lot of weaker than Cell either-way you look at it.

Goku is just more ready to fight, and might be more skilled, so Cell can lower his power down to Goku, and still have a good fight. That doesn't have to mean Gohan is only a bit stronger than Goku, but ye.

I've long thought skill had a lot to do with why he wanted to fight Goku, and only Goku. I mean, if Cell is a 10, and Goku is a 6, everyone else that matters is hovering around 4-5. If it's all about power, then what's the difference to Cell if he suppress another point or two?

There has to be more to it, in terms of incentive for Cell.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Cell wanting to fight Goku instead of Gohan doesn't have to necessarily mean Gohan isn't that much stronger than Goku, after-all they are both still a lot of weaker than Cell either-way you look at it.

Goku is just more ready to fight, and might be more skilled, so Cell can lower his power down to Goku, and still have a good fight. That doesn't have to mean Gohan is only a bit stronger than Goku, but ye.

I've long thought skill had a lot to do with why he wanted to fight Goku, and only Goku. I mean, if Cell is a 10, and Goku is a 6, everyone else that matters is hovering around 4-5. If it's all about power, then what's the difference to Cell if he suppress another point or two?

There has to be more to it, in terms of incentive for Cell.

Yeah, adding-on Cell was also a creation by Dr. Gero who wanted to kill Goku, so there's that, too.

 

[Southern Gothic]

Of course. I think many factors were at play. Goku's power is only a percentage of why Cell wanted him so bad.

 

[p123]

So how about this, remember when Cell has Gohan in the bearhug and Piccolo goes to rush in? Goku stops him and asks for a sensu. How would that fight play out now against Cell?

 

[Clearin]

So how about this, remember when Cell has Gohan in the bearhug and Piccolo goes to rush in? Goku stops him and asks for a sensu. How would that fight play out now against Cell?

Cell has raised his speed, so Goku wouldn't be able to touch Cell, basically. He might be able to take some hits if Cell doesn't raise his power (and didn't do so before fighting Gohan), but considering he can't beat Cell even when Cell wasn't at full speed, he just loses faster.

 

[Southern Gothic]

Even with a Senzu, I see Goku going down. Cell was encouraging him to take one to continue fighing, and he seemed confident about it too.

 

[p123]

Gohan is has more power than Goku and is noted for his toughness and durability and he is having trouble taking Cell's punches. How is that not a sign that Cell has increased his power?

Gohan is being more effected by Cell's punches than Goku was.


No Southern, I'm talking about this version of Cell that was already beating Gohan. He's faster and more likely more powerful than ever.

 

[Clearin]

Gohan is has more power than Goku and is noted for his toughness and durability and he is having trouble taking Cell's punches. How is that not a sign that Cell has increased his power?

Gohan is being more effected by Cell's punches than Goku was.

I don't think that's true. After all he walked out of a a beating that everybody, except Goku, thought had killed him without taking any real damage. It was that combo that made Cell realise Gohan was exceptionally tough though, so maybe after that he raised his power. After all, he'd already revealed that he was hiding power by this point by increasing his speed.

 

[Southern Gothic]

No Southern, I'm talking about this version of Cell that was already beating Gohan. He's faster and more likely more powerful than ever.

Yes, and, if Cell was confident at fighting a full power Goku, while he himself was supressed and losing ki, then I don't see why he wouldn't kick the shit out of Goku after they both had a senzu. My point was that if he was confident before, he should have absolutely no worries here.

 

[p123]

Oh of course, it still would be interesting. Goku gets his sensu and Cell starts whooping him, Gohan joins in and the father-son combo starts beating up Cell until Cell unleashes his massive true power.

 

[ahill1]

If we bring the Boo saga into it then that'll just turn everyone against me even more If there's any opinion I have less popular than Gohan not being that far above Goku, it's his SSj2 power, and the fact he had a rage boost the entire time, meaning we essentially don't see a regular SSj2 Gohan in the Cell Games. This means I have Goku and Vegeta in the Boo saga far above regular Gohan from the Cell Games, but just a little above rage boosted SSj2 Gohan (or in Pre-Majin Vegeta's case, below).

I used the topic in a debate tournament almost 3 years ago so you can see my reasoning:
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8402687/1/

Might need a bit of updating now, but the idea is still the same.

Then again, even some people who don't give Gohan a rage boost the entire time will give him one during the final beam struggle, so that could just as easily have been the power everyone referred to. It's just that both comments relating them to Gohan came after they turned SSj2, so imo there was something unique about SSj2 Gohan from the Cell Games (aka rage boost) that meant those comments couldn't have been said in regards to base/SSj Goku and Vegeta.

We know Goku is dead set on Cell having reserves otherwise he wouldn't be banking so hard on Gohan having to become enraged. That's why he gave Cell the sensu. It's all about Gohan enraged vs Cell's full power.

If Goku never gave Cell the sensu, Gohan would be winning easily but Cell would bring the reserves out.

How would Gohan have been winning easy? Isn't this about determining if Gohan is above Goku but below Cell? When did it become decided Gohan was definitely stronger than the Cell Goku fought?

Well put, dude. Good point. Rage bosst is a nice theory.

P, I still think that Cell increased his power when he increased his speed, but I don't like it to be a huge powered up... 88% powered up is fine IMO.

 

[ahill1]

Something interesting: compare the fight between Gohan Vs Cell (vs goku) with the fight between Teen Gohan and Goten. Kid Gohan took the first kick of Cell with much more ease than Teen Gohan defended the kick of Goten. So for me the distance between Teen Gohan and Goten is definitely smaller than the distance between Kid Gohan and Cell (vs goku). Please compare the fights. Gohan was having a much harder time with Goten than he had with Cell(who fought goku).

 

[Clearin]

Something interesting: compare the fight between Gohan Vs Cell (vs goku) with the fight between Teen Gohan and Goten. Kid Gohan took the first kick of Cell with much more ease than Teen Gohan defended the kick of Goten. So for me the distance between Teen Gohan and Goten is definitely smaller than the distance between Kid Gohan and Cell (vs goku). Please compare the fights. Gohan was having a much harder time with Goten than he had with Cell(who fought goku).

To be fair Gohan was super rusty at that point. It was literally the first real kick he'd ever had to block in 7 years.

 

[p123]

Rocks says it all.