But you were cherrypicking instances to make it appear like it was the same. Or simply means casualities and on top of that, we talk about a company that can make new scenes or at least hardly does.
Even though I can agree on you with this, nothing indicates that Gogeta wouldn't be able to actually tank Janemba, especially when the intent is to portray him being the strongest, as well as doesn't have antifeats against it. I don't think Super Buu ever powered up in his base form (excluding absorptions), and when it comes to the anime, I think is just implied that he was pulling his punches against SSJ3 Gotenks.
Fat Janemba's mere existence was breaking the barriers of Hell and laws between it the living world and SSJ3 Goku > him. So no Buu Saga Goku is not stronger than M12 Goku. Not even close.
As I said, Goku's ki being sensed across infinitely sized dimensions into a higher dimension MIGHT be considered a greater feat than shaking one infinitely sized dimension.
How is it a greater feat?
Going by non-linear feats, SSJ3 Goku was sensed by many people on the Kaioshin Realm whereas nobody other than Super Buu could sense Ultimate Gohan on Earth during his 1st power burst on Kaioshin realm, yet, SSJ3 Goku is not stronger than Ultimate Gohan.
How reliable does Buu's word can be? He believed that Goku & Gohan fusing might be worthless against him, whereas Goku and Old Kaioshin believed that Metamoran Gokhan could defeat said Buu.
Because Goku's ki (his battle power) was sensed across infinitely sized dimensions, & into one that is at least 4D.
Gohan's first aura flare was momentary, & everyone on Earth was trying to get a read on Evil Boo when that happened. It's entirely possible that Gohan's brief aura flare < SSJ3 Goku's sustained aura flare in terms of how easy it is to sense or power output.
Trained & got stronger by how much? After the Cell games he trained for 7 years & he was only remarked (by Vegeta) to surpass Kid SSJ2 Gohan when he himself transformed into a SSJ2:
Erm, wouldn't that just prove my point that the Goku in the mainline couldn't even draw out his full potential & displayed that feat. Unless I'm misunderstanding your point, if so, sorry.
Prove beyond reasonable doubt that Boo's word is unreliable, Boo witnessed Goten & Trunks fusing on multiple occasions, he absorbed Piccolo, who taught Goten & Trunks Fusion, who practiced it & used it constantly to become Gotenks for weeks in the RoSaT. If he believed that Goku & Gohan fusing (with the Metamoran Fusion Dance, obviously) would be worthless, then it is.
Prove beyond reasonable doubt that Goku/Gosen Zosama actually thought that Gokuhan or Gogeta would actually defeat Boo, rather than it simply being their best bet.
REPEAT: Boo witnessed Goten & Trunks fusing on multiple occasions, he absorbed Piccolo, who taught Goten & Trunks Fusion, who practiced it & used it constantly to become Gotenks for weeks in the RoSaT.
Irrelevant.
He thinks Goku, a pure Saiyan, is going to fuse with Gohan, a 1/2 Saiyan, which he knows because he absorbed a couple of them, & Piccolo knows what a Saiyan is. He also thinks he's going to fuse with Vegeta, not some random Human. And why wouldn't he think the Fusion would be capable of transforming? He saw Gotenks transform into SSJ & SSJ3.
Why would he kill the main characters? Because he's the villain, & is the evil part of Boo.
His ki was still sensible, though. Super Buu commented that Gohan is the one who is stronger than him after that brief period, whether it is momentary or not is irrelevant. Are you also willing to believe that Goku > Super Buu?
Point is, that Buu Saga Goku can't be stronger than Movie 12 Goku, not that he grew stronger. Also, Vegeta was crying due to the fact that even in the Afterlife, Goku was stronger than him and it's also said that they need to lower their powers, so the Fusion can work, this doesn't work with the premise of Vegeta being equal or stronger than Goku on equal forms, let alone being far stronger.
Why was Goku (vs Fat Buu) sweating bullets against said Buu, while both are remarked to be entertaining themselves, while the other Goku (Janemba) effortlessly stomped someone who has the greatest ki he ever sensed (at a point in which he sensed Fat Buu)?
Yet, he is unable to tell how much progress Gotenks has since the last time he fought him, or how much SSJ3 Gotenks changed in relation to SSJ Gotenks other than his appearance. Buu doesn't seem to have knowledge from the ones he absobed as he can't tell who Dende is, hell, he doesn't even know that Goku is actually the father of Gohan as he remarked the Kamehameha as a technique of a friend.
I mean, Goku has already witnessed how strong Gotenks is in relation to Goten & Trunks, as well as Old Kaioshin just told him that Buu wouldn't let him do the dance, so Potara, which is an instant fusion would solve that problem, that doesn't even have the limitant of time. This is like if I ask you to prove me how much of a confidence does Buu have if he want to stop Goku & Gohan fusion on his capabilities of defeating him.
This is responded.
Why? If he can't realize how strong a character is just by sensing ki or fight someone for a while most of the times, what tell us that he can actually grasp in depth how strong a hypothetical character that hasn't existed can be? Or Buu just has to be right just because you want him to be correct?
No, I am talking about Goku going to fuse with Vegeta, Buu considered that one human with great energy has appeared, whether he is thinking that he could transform or if it's of a different race and could transform is up to you to decide; remaining in blank speculation. Buu doesn't even seem to know how strong a SSJ3 can be as he believed that he was the strongest until Gohan appeared and that he believed that as Fat Buu he could've beaten SSJ3 Goku.
Oh yes, he is going to eliminate the main characters, so they can't fuse and he can't avoid a potential threat appearing or a challenging situation. Seems fair.
On the contrary, whether it was momentary or not could very well make a difference, & like I said everyone at that time was focused on Evil Boo.
My point about the feats thing is that it's not clear cut that Movie 12 Goku is vastly stronger than mainline Goku as many might make it out to be, but is more likely relative.
My point was that Vegeta was getting solid hits on Janemba, albeit there was an element of him outsmarting Janemba, and Vegeta in Movie 12 cannot be stronger than the Vegeta that fought Fat Boo. I was not saying that SSJ2 Vegeta > SSJ3 Goku, I was just saying that SSJ2 Vegeta appears somewhat relative to Janemba, who was somewhat relative to SSJ3 Goku (with his blade), judging by that, Goku couldn't have gotten vastly stronger from the Boo Saga.
The burden of proof is on you to prove that he's suppressed.
And yet Vegeta was still getting some good hits in on Janemba, so how much stronger than Boo is he really?
He fought SSJ3 Gotenks, so after that fight he certainly would have a grasp on how strong Fusion is. He simply could've not been able to make out Dende, & pretty much everyone Gohan knows uses the Kamehameha (Kamesennin, Krillin, Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Goten & by extension Gotenks, Goku, Himself), not just Goku.
So? The kids are at least half as strong as Goku & Vegeta, so Gogeta would be at most 2x Gotenks.
Okay, does not prove that a Metamoran Gokuhan or Gogeta would've been enough.
He fought SSJ2 Vegeta & SSJ3 Goku, he knows how strong Goku/Vegeta are. He fought SSJ3 Gotenks, he would know how strong Gotenks is in relation to Goten/Trunks & therefore how strong Fusion is. He would know how strong a Fusion between Goku & Vegeta would be.
I don't think that really makes a difference, because even if he thought that the human that showed up couldn't transform, he knows Goku can transform, so why not the Fusion?
Why couldn't he have been the strongest until Gohan showed up? Why couldn't he have beaten Goku? It was a pretty even fight between Goku & Boo, & Boo could regenerate & turn Goku into chocolate if he wanted.
Okay...
Nobody was focused on Goku when he transformed into SSJ3, yet his ki was strong enough to call their attention on Kaioshin Realm, so, everyone on Earth theorically could be able to sense Gohan's ki even if they don't want to, yet only Super Buu could sense him from that far.
I agree, Movie 12 Goku can be stronger than Buu Saga Goku, but not that far ahead. Movie 12 SSJ2 Goku is still weaker than Fat Buu, but in SSJ3 he can overpower an enemy even stronger than Fat Buu while needing to go all-out if he wants to defeat the last one in his maintimeline self.
Vegeta was also landing solid hits on Fat Buu initially and his attacks were apparently damaging him a lot, but in Buu's case he can be damaged by attacks make by people way weaker than him. Also Janemba defeated Vegeta easier than Fat Buu.
The fact that he can't tank SSJ2 Vegeta's attacks pretty much indicates he was suppressed, we have seen cases in which a gap less than 4x (which is the minimum gap between Vegeta and Janemba) are able to tank characters.
Vegeta was also getting good hits on Fat Buu initially, your point?
Buu has only seen Goku using the Kamehameha, when he was Fat Buu, how would he be able to know that everyone else use it?
Thing is that at this point, Goku could pretty much knows how a Metamoran Fusion between himself and Gohan could be, as well as whether they can defeat him that way or not. Also, do you think Base Gogeta is stronger than SSJ3 Goku? Because we've seen how Base Gotenks was stomped badly by Fat Buu, even though he has more confidence in himself that SSJ Goten & Trunks when it comes to defeat Buu.
Old Kaioshin knew that Gotenks & Super Buu were fighting inside the Rosat, as well as Goku afterwards claims that Gogeta can defeat Super Buu, is that also not proving anything to you? Also, you didn't responded my question.
He fought a SSJ3 Goku that was holding back (but he didn't knew). He doesn't seem to have a good grasp at how strong Goku is, though, as he think he could defeat him as Fat Buu. Also, he doesn't seem to know that SSJ3 Gotenks was actually stronger than him.
Maybe because he doesn't know how Fusion could work on different races? Also Buu literally said that another human with great power has appeared.
Because Gotenks was stronger than him.
I think that Gogeta is stronger than Ultimate Gohan, he can also be stronger than Gotenks Buu, but doesn't know exactly for sure by now. I don't think Gohan Buu could beat him, but I can't also imagine Vegetto being that much above Gogeta.
Everyone on Earth who mattered was focused on him:
Yes, theoretically they could sense Gohan from Earth, but if they were focused on EVIL BOO, wouldn't that distract them, & possibly prevent them from sensing Gohan? Especially since that Ki that was distracting them was already somewhat relative to Gohan & right in their face, possibly about to kill them.
Since Evil Boo, naturally, wouldn't be distracted by his own Ki.
Yeah, if we take them as the same flow of events, then Movie 12 Goku would be stronger by some amount, but I don't think he got strong enough for the difference to matter, personally.
Vegeta was getting good hits on Fat Boo, then gets defeated in one attack. Vegeta was getting good hits on Janemba, then gets defeated in one attack. My point with that is the degree to which Janemba > Fat Boo probably isn't big enough to really make a difference.
And yet, there've been cases in which characters have been able to affect others despite massive differences, like when Piccolo kicked Freeza in the head so Goku could finish the Genkidama, which would be a gap of up to 60x.
My point, is that it suggests that Janemba is not much farther out of Vegeta's league than Fat Boo was.
Because he knows all of Gohan's friends from absorbing Goten, Trunks & Piccolo.
Boo was getting very frustrated in that fight, which would've made him sloppier & easier to beat. Still physically stronger, if even by a smidge, is possible.
I don't doubt that Goku would know how strong Metamoran Gokuhan would be, but he never states whether or not that Fusion would win, only that that was his plan before being given the Potara earrings. The only thing you can honestly gleam from that is SSJ3 Metamoran Gokuhan > Gohan.
If you assume SSJ Gotenks = SSJ3 Goku, & that Goten/Trunks are 1/2 as strong as Goku, then Fusion would be an 8x boost, at least in Gotenks' case.
I don't see your point.
Source the text in bold.
Well, judging by the fact that not even a bead of sweat drops from his face when he thinks about Gokuhan, probably a lot of confidence.
I don't think Goku was holding back, throughout the fight with Boo, you can read Goku's inner thoughts & he's constantly surprised by Fat Boo, first by how he can't damage him, then by him copying Vegeta's Technique™. Especially considering he had minutes at most left on Earth.
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That's clutching at straws, nobody knows how Fusion could work on different races, only on Metamorans, Saiyans, & Human Saiyan Hybrids.
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Where exactly do you place Fat Boo? He has to stomp SSJ2 Goku, so how far behind an SSJ3 Goku can he possibly be?
Speaking of, where would you say Vegetto fits into it? You probably already know where I think Vegetto fits, Base Vegetto > Boohan > SSJ3 Gogeta.
I am talking about Kaioshin realm.
Gotenks was just about of being to base form and Buu was static as a stone. Nobody was doing anything on Kaioshin Realm other than Gohan training, but then Goku's ki shocked everyone on Kaioshin Realm even though, they weren't focused or trying to sense ki.
Janemba was stated to be the strongest ki Goku ever felt, then he transformed and defeated Goku. SSJ3 Goku was already stronger than Fat Buu in the Buu Saga and he could've gotten even more powerful.
Freeza could probably not be at 50% anymore as it wouldn't be neccesary, also he was thinking Piccolo and the others were gone, so he wasn't concentrated enough for them to not matter and wasn't expecting that he could attack him. Also Piccolo absorbed Gohan & Krillin's ki which would minor the difference by a smaller bit to a Freeza that wasn't potentially that much of a threat to Base Goku.
Of course, Janemba can't tank SSJ3 Goku, because it's not strong enough to do so, nothing disproves this. But, the fact that he is above SSJ3 Goku is enough to prove that he can tank SSJ2 Vegeta while not being suppressed.
Actually, now that I've been thinking about it, Janemba could be stronger than SSJ Gotenks as Gotenks existed in this universe and Janemba is remarked that he is the 2nd place. But it also depends at how much powerful you have SSJ Gotenks, because in my case I don't consider him that high. As well as it can also depend if Gotenks was post Rosat cause in the movie, Gotenks used the Kamikaze attack.
It's possible, but I've also seen the possibility that the weakest factor doesn't affect the position of the strongest, by this I mean that the resulting warrior can also make use of the full's potential strongest partner even while having to lower its ki. The reference is given in the anime.
But he didn't know about Dende?
Gohan also had confidence on Gotenks defeating Super Buu to concede him the place of doing that. Also Gotenks' power was compared to Gohan.
So, why would Goku's prediction on Gotenks would be asscerted (in your case), but Metamoran Gokhan or Gogeta doesn't?
It also depends at how seriously you can take Piccolo's implications on Gotenks, as he came of hopes of him winning to "we're doomed". Goten & Trunks doesn't seem to have progressed enough and Piccolo was expecting a miracle.
That Old Kaioshin has knowledge of Metamoran Fusion, therefore he can tell whether Gokhan can defeat or not Buu.
Buu states that he doesn't want to take the chance of Goku & Gohan fusing, so he would kill Goku, he seems nervous about that possibility.
Vegeta doesn't have SSJ3, so even though he knew how strong SSJ2 Vegeta is, he has no knowledge on SSJ3. He only knows about a holding back SSJ3 Goku.
And Buu thinks a human has appeared.
Vegeta isn't also an Earthling, but I see your point. Goku calls himself as a human at one point of the saga, but he also lived most of his time on Earth, so I get that could potentially be a case.
He is in between SSJ2 Goku and SSJ3 Goku, 3x at most over SSJ2 Goku in my book.
I think Base Vegetto doesn't have that much info about him and that he is only stronger than SSJ3 Goku, as well as Base Gogeta. As well as it is said that Fusion is weaker than Potara by an undetermined amount. So he just has to be stronger than Gogeta, at most I can think SSJ Vegetto being slightly above SSJ2 Gogeta, but weaker than SSJ3 Gogeta.
If Gohan was far, far away, & Evil Boo was very close, it's likely that Gohan's Ki signature was drowned out by Evil Boo's based on proximity & immediate threat. There's no other way I can possibly put it.
Janemba's 2nd form > SSJ3 Goku, but he was STLL losing to Goku. Clearly, it's not necessarily true that SSJ3 Goku was > Fat Janemba, even. And Daizenshuu entries don't even make it clear that Fat Janemba < 2nd Form Janemba, only that he became more aggressive.
Except for the fact that on screen he couldn't tank SSJ2 Vegeta. There is no proof that Janemba was suppressed.
It doesn't remark Janemba as 2nd place, only that Gogeta is clearly the strongest hero in the universe. And that could be due to him being Goku & Vegeta, not beating Janemba.Actually, now that I've been thinking about it, Janemba could be stronger than SSJ Gotenks as Gotenks existed in this universe and Janemba is remarked that he is the 2nd place. But it also depends at how much powerful you have SSJ Gotenks, because in my case I don't consider him that high. As well as it can also depend if Gotenks was post Rosat cause in the movie, Gotenks used the Kamikaze attack.
Well, Goku seemed to think fusing with Mr. Satan would make him weaker, & he'd be thinking of Metamoran Fusion. Where is that mentioned btw?
He only caught a glimpse of him.
Regardless, only being barely stronger would still make Evil Boo the strongest until Gohan showed up. Gohan also knows Gotenks was beating Boo's ass, from hearing Goku talking about it.
It was only Goku's plan to beat Boo, he never stated that it would. This is also hard countered by Bootenks' very explicit statement that a Metamoran Gokuhan would lose. This goes for Gogeta as well.So, why would Goku's prediction on Gotenks would be asscerted (in your case), but Metamoran Gokhan or Gogeta doesn't?
Piccolo was more impressed by Base Gotenks post RoSaT than SSJ pre RoSaT & actually thought he had a shot at winning. He definitely isn't thinking of SSJ post Gotenks at that moment, because he doesn't know they learned to transform after fusing.
He never says that he can though, only that Potara Gokuhan can.
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He definitely believes what he's saying, he knows how strong Fusion is, and he calls it futile. Even if he decides to be cautious & just kill Goku, it doesn't prove that Gokuhan >= Bootenks.Buu states that he doesn't want to take the chance of Goku & Gohan fusing, so he would kill Goku, he seems nervous about that possibility.
Okay, so even if he was holding back, he still couldn't have beat him at max power, and he bases that on Boo's mighty strength.
Not relevant, he knows how strong SSJ2 Vegeta is, therefore he knows how strong SSJ2 Goku is, so he knows how strong Goku is. He also saw every form of Goku, Base, SSJ, SSJ2 & SSJ3.
Well, El Manga Legendario states that Vegetto > Gokuhan (Potara):
Potara Base Gokuhan > Bootenks:
And? Nobody was putting effort or trying to sense SSJ3 Goku on Kaioshin realm, Gohan was focused on training, but he, Shin and Kibito immediately sensed him while not trying to do so. Piccolo, Goten and Trunks were never able to do so because Gohan's ki wasn't that powerful to do so, only Super Buu could.
He was still losing to Goku due to Goku taking advantage of his skills, Janemba is someone that doesn't know how to fight or have skills, therefore, why Goku could take advantage of him while having a power disadvantage. It was shown on screen, Goku overpowered Janemba and then he reached a new level which was unstoppable for him.
Of course there is, Semi Perfect Cell tanked 16 without being 4x times above his power, Perfect Cell tanked Vegeta without being 4x times above his power, Vegeta tanked Semi Perfect Cell without being 4x times stronger. Do you want more proofs?
No, him being the strongest in the universe is attributed due to the fact of defeating Janemba, it is never mentioned that is due to Goku and Vegeta fusion, or are both.
Except that Gotenks in the anime literally stated that he has trained too hard for that technique:
When Goku thinks that Metamoran Fusion is better than assimilation in which both of them didn't have to lower their ki to merge.
And he could still sense ki and determine whether Gotenks has or doesn't have chance. Gotenks being stronger than him would make Buu's notion as something obsolete.
It goes according to the context as Old Kaioshin asked him on how he planned to defeat Buu, then he mentions Fusion and Old Kaioshin doesn't contradict him, but it's a bad plan due to Buu not giving them the chance to merge together. So? Buu also considered that SSJ Vegetto would not be able to beat him and even after having him in front and proved his superiority couldn't tell that Vegetto surpassed him until much later.
I can agree with this, but this is just there for gags purposes and it doesn't mean to be taken seriously.
He just changed his game plan because Buu wouldn't let him do Fusion, then he has a better solution on his hands to avoid that happening.
Not in the version I'm using:
He doesn't seem to have a good grasp at how powerful Gotenks is, as shown with him being unable to tell how much Gotenks progressed after his Rosat training or not being able to realize how exactly strong SSJ3 Gotenks is properly.
Afterwards he stated that he could defeat him. There's also the fact that SSJ3 transformation surpassed Vegeta's expectatives despite of being aware of that form before of that.
He just doesn't know how strong SSJ3 Goku is at full effort.
If anything I don't believe in that guide that much as it has Shin = CG SSJ Goku if I remember correctly.
Earlier you asserted that at the moment of Gohan's ki flare, he was stronger than SSJ3 Goku, if you are now saying he was not, then there's no need to argue this further.
Agree 100%, but Janemba never powered up, the only thing that changed was that he drew his sword.
How do you quantify the difference between 1st & 2nd form Cell & the difference between 2nd form & Perfect? That's impossible to know.
It is stated in the final line, in the 1st it's Goku & Vegeta, then in the 2nd it's that he beat Janemba. It's not necessarily attributed to due to beating Janemba.
Then I agree with you.
They definitely CAN tell that he's stronger:
He could just be talking about the multiplier of Fusion.When Goku thinks that Metamoran Fusion is better than assimilation in which both of them didn't have to lower their ki to merge.
But like I said, Evil Boo still could've been stronger. This also goes back to SSJ3 Goku vs Janemba, where Janemba was stronger, but Goku was still winning.
Old Kaioshin doesn't contradict him, but he never explicitly endorsed it.
I understand that, but I think it's okay to take gag moments seriously in terms of scaling.
Still never says that he'd actually beat Boo.
Talking about how they can beat him, or how they can not be slaughtered as soon as they start fighting him. The former is not necessarily more likely than the latter.Not in the version I'm using:
Goku stated that Super Buu would kill them if they're unfused, then he reclaims him due to him breaking the Potara and then proceeds to suggest the other Fusion which Vegeta was aware of. At every point they're talking about how they can defeat him/solve the situation.
I think that he'd have a good grasp on Gotenks after their fight ends.
When he states that, he's deliberately trying to look cool in front of Vegeta, it's why he refused the Potara as well.
Never happened, but if you mean this:
He doesn't need to to know how strong his Fusion would be.
What's wrong with Kaioshin = CG SSJ Goku?
Old Kaioshin knows how strong Potara Gokuhan is, & he says his Base is enough to deal with Bootenks.
Fair enough, there is a lot of bullcrap in the anime.
No. The only thing about this is that Gohan emit a less powerful prescence than SSJ3 Goku, not because he was weaker. Anyways, since canon Goku vs Movie 12 Goku topic is solved, there's no other reason to folllow this.
Of course, Janemba never powered up other than transforming.
Semi Perfect Cell is just 17 + Imperfect Cell Post together, 17 is far weaker than Imperfect Cell post, nothing better can be justified by the narrative. Agree with Perfect Cell, even then, nothing implies that he is 4x above Vegeta's level.
So, why would also remark that SSJ3 Goku was no match for Janemba and afterwards call him the strongest in the universe?
Hmmm no, Goten & Trunks only said that he changed upon seeing his appearance, also, what does exactly mean "in every way"? That is far after the first time Goku sensed him, which only asked himself if that is Majin Buu.
Which means that even having to lower their ki doesn't affect the final product.
Hmmm no... Janemba is someone that doesn't know how to fight, Super Buu showed to be someone who is skilled and a better fighter than Fat Buu which Goku acknowledged as a genius of fighting.
Hmmm no, the only disadvantage he was talking is whether Buu would let them fuse or not, power was never in question.
He wanted to kill Goku so he can avoid to deal with that Fusion. Also Goku explicitely said they would win for sure:
Well, at least the story doesn't seem to take that much seriously. SSJ Goku thinks himself is capable of damaging Super Buu while Base Gotenks can't even scratch him in the slightest.
Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P13.1
But, is unable to tell that he is weaker than him?
I'm talking when Vegeta realizes that Buu and Goku are stronger than what he imagined, this is after he observed Goku fighting with Kid Buu. Also would you agree that Goku is fighting a stronger Buu than the one that is Fat?
What are you talking about? Why wouldn't he need to know how strong his Fusion would be?
Shin feared Dabura who had trouble with SSJ Gohan, who is weaker than his CG self.
I think it can be the case, the little discrepancie here it might be that Old Kaioshin speaks about SSJ Vegetto.
