My new Saiyans Saga PL list. Is it good?

[Hector]

Saibaimen: 1,200
-suicide blast: 2,200

Yamcha: 1,350

Krillin: 1,400
-scattering bullet: 2,500 (then splits into five balls of 2,000 each)
-spirit bomb: 25,000

Tenshinhan: 1600
-kikoho: 2,600

Chaozu: 600
-suicide blast: 2,200

Gohan: 1,300
-enraged: 2,400
-massenko: 2,800

Piccolo: 2,000

Nappa: 2,500
-1st power-up (Z-fighters): 3,200
-2nd power-up (Goku): 6,000
-full power: 7,500
-mouth blast: 10,000

Goku: 8,100
-kamehemeha: 10,125
-kaioken: 12,150
-2x kaioken: 16,200
-3x kaioken: 24,300
-3x kaioken/kamehameha: 30,375
-4x kaioken/kamehameha: 40,500
-post beam struggle: 2,500
-spirit bomb: 50,000

Vegeta: 9,000
-more serious: 13,500
-full power: 18,000
-gallick gun: 30,000
-post beam struggle: 5,000
-post power ball: 4,500
-great ape: 45,000
-post transformation: 2,700
-post spirit bomb: 1,800

Yadjirobe: 900

 

[Animelover5487]

I would move Tenshithans down to 1500 if Piccolo is at 2000. He is definitely much closer to Yamcha then he is to the Namek.

Chaozu's self Destruct > Kuririn's blast since he thought he could kill Nappa after seeing him tank it.

 

[Hector]

I would move Tenshithans down to 1500 if Piccolo is at 2000. He is definitely much closer to Yamcha then he is to the Namek.

Chaozu's self Destruct > Kuririn's blast since he thought he could kill Nappa after seeing him tank it.

Nappa tanked one of the smaller blasts the original blast was split into.

 

[Power Level Guy]

I would move Tenshithans down to 1500 if Piccolo is at 2000. He is definitely much closer to Yamcha then he is to the Namek.

Piccolo is actually piss weak in this saga. He's weaker than nearly every ki blast the Z-fighters can muster, he's not much ahead of Tien.

Chaozu's self Destruct > Kuririn's blast since he thought he could kill Nappa after seeing him tank it.

Agreed.

But he does have Self Destruct > Scatter Shot (Individual)

-full power: 7,500
-mouth blast: 10,000

Seems to be quite a large amp. I don't think Nappa can amp this much.

-post beam struggle: 2,500

I wonder if Goku should be this weak?

-full power: 18,000
-gallick gun: 30,000

This amp is quite high. You are going to have massive problems in the Namek Saga.

I've discovered that the 1.5x amp for Galick Gun is perfect.

-great ape: 45,000

This is way too weak, KKx5 can't do ANYTHING to Great Ape Vegeta, this is damn near rivaling.

Oozaru Vegeta is at least 60k if not higher. I might have him at 80k personally.

-post beam struggle: 5,000

They are not even sure if he's weakened at all. I don't think he's all that weak, he's only taken a few punches and didn't take much damage from the blast at all.

I don't see him being under say 15-16k or so.

-post transformation: 2,700
-post spirit bomb: 1,800

Enraged Gohan is 2,400, he'd never be able to land a hit on Vegeta at this gap. I think you gotta put Vegeta at 2,500 here.

Post Spirit Bomb, he's still quite strong indeed. He bitch smacks Krillin with ease and Krillin has only taken one hit, although he was severely hurt. 1,800 should be fine, if not 2,000.

You have to include Post-Explosive wave. I think he drops down to 1,500 or so then.

You've done remarkable work though. This is incredibly detailed.

 

[Hector]

I wonder if Goku should be this weak?

King Kai said after the beam struggle that even if Vegeta can't transform, things are still tough for Goku. And as we saw, Goku can still do a regular Kaioken with no problem at this point.

This amp is quite high. You are going to have massive problems in the Namek Saga.

Didn't we establish recently that...
20x Kaioken Goku - 45
50% Freeza - 50
20x Kaioken/Kamehameha Goku - 55
Therefore, the kamehemeha when combined with kaioken is about 1.25x. That means that for Vegeta to rival the 3x Kaioken/Kamehameha combo, he needs 1.66x a multiplier for his blast.

This is way too weak, KKx5 can't do ANYTHING to Great Ape Vegeta, this is damn near rivaling.

Did he say he can't do anything to him? I recall him just saying he couldn't win.

I don't see him being under say 15-16k or so.

So he lost the bulk of his power from making the moon? I think it makes more sense for him to have lost more power from the beating he'd gotten.

Enraged Gohan is 2,400, he'd never be able to land a hit on Vegeta at this gap. I think you gotta put Vegeta at 2,500 here.

Why? 2.7k/2.4k is not a "can't touch your opponent" gap.

 

[Power Level Guy]

King Kai said after the beam struggle that even if Vegeta can't transform, things are still tough for Goku. And as we saw, Goku can still do a regular Kaioken with no problem at this point.

Kaio: “But Son Goku has no strength left. Even without Oozaru, the Saiyan may be more than enough for him. But he’s gotten weaker too! The way he is now, if we could only hit him with the Genki-Dama, we’ll win for sure!!!!”


Yeah, Goku has lost most of his strength. But this is good, it confirms Vegeta is far weaker too.

Chapter: 233 (DBZ 39), P11.3
Goku: “Even if I raise the Kaio-Ken to x5, it still won't have any effect on him!!!!”


People keep using 60k, I think that's probably our best bet here.

Didn't we establish recently that...
20x Kaioken Goku - 45
50% Freeza - 50
20x Kaioken/Kamehameha Goku - 55
Therefore, the kamehemeha when combined with kaioken is about 1.25x. That means that for Vegeta to rival the 3x Kaioken/Kamehameha combo, he needs 1.66x a multiplier for his blast.

I liked the idea, but it probably doesn't hold up.

You have a tremendous problem with Reecome and 2nd Form Freeza I'd say. A 1.66x multiplier is probably going to be too much.

Also it's probably too much for Android 18 as well...

So he lost the bulk of his power from making the moon? I think it makes more sense for him to have lost more power from the beating he'd gotten.

Yeah you were right. It seems like he lost more than I had originally thought.

Maybe this?

Vegeta (Post-Galick Gun) 12,000
Vegeta (Post-Power Ball) 6,000
Vegeta (Post-Oozaru) 2,500
Vegeta (Post-Spirit Bomb) 2,500
Vegeta (Post-Explosive Wave) 1,500

What do you think?

Why? 2.7k/2.4k is not a "can't touch your opponent" gap.

Of course it is. That's literally the gap we use for KKx2 Goku vs Vegeta. C'mon now.

Goku even thinks Gohan's power is above Vegeta's. I think they are equals and Vegeta just outclasses him.

 

[Hector]

Kaio: “But Son Goku has no strength left. Even without Oozaru, the Saiyan may be more than enough for him. But he’s gotten weaker too! The way he is now, if we could only hit him with the Genki-Dama, we’ll win for sure!!!!”

Doesn't King Kai take into consideration that Goku can still do a normal kaioken when he states that? So for Vegeta to be "probably more than enough" he has to be at least 2x Goku's base at this point.

I liked the idea, but it probably doesn't hold up.

You have a tremendous problem with Reecome and 2nd Form Freeza I'd say. A 1.66x multiplier is probably going to be too much.

Also it's probably too much for Android 18 as well...

Vegeta doesn't have much time to charge his blasts against Recoome and Eighteen, so we can give those blasts smaller amps. As for 2nd Form Freeza, the gap is massive, so even if Vegeta charged a fully powered blast, it still makes sense that he didn't do any damage.

Yeah you were right. It seems like he lost more than I had originally thought.

Maybe this?

Vegeta (Post-Galick Gun) 12,000
Vegeta (Post-Power Ball) 6,000
Vegeta (Post-Oozaru) 2,500
Vegeta (Post-Spirit Bomb) 2,500
Vegeta (Post-Explosive Wave) 1,500

Is it implied anywhere that Vegeta lost a lot of power from making the moon?

 

[Power Level Guy]

Doesn't King Kai take into consideration that Goku can still do a normal kaioken when he states that? So for Vegeta to be "probably more than enough" he has to be at least 2x Goku's base at this point.

That's a good point.

Vegeta doesn't have much time to charge his blasts against Recoome and Eighteen, so we can give those blasts smaller amps. As for 2nd Form Freeza, the gap is massive, so even if Vegeta charged a fully powered blast, it still makes sense that he didn't do any damage.

Vegeta 475,000
Blast 791,000

Freeza 1,250,000

That's over 60%... Might still be ok...

Is it implied anywhere that Vegeta lost a lot of power from making the moon?

He's stated to have lost power.

 

[Power Level Guy]

-great ape: 45,000

You guys are right about this. I hadn't considered all the options yet. Goku ending right back at his Kkx2 vs Vegeta scenario could definitely warrant such a comment.

I know think 45-50k is probably the right range.

-spirit bomb: 25,000

I think the Spirit Bomb has to a good deal about Great Ape Vegeta.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Ok, I got it now. Masterpiece.

Yajirobe 1,000
Gohan 1,350
Krillen 1,400
Vegeta (Post Explosive Wave) 1,500
Vegeta (Post Spirit Bomb) 2,000
Enraged Gohan 2,700
Vegeta (Post Oozaru) 3,000
Goku (Post Kamehameha) 3,500
Vegeta (Post Power Ball) 4,500
KKx2 Goku (Post Kamehameha) 7,000
Goku (Full Power) 8,000
Vegeta (Post Galick Gun) 9,000
Kkx2 Goku 16,000
Vegeta 18,000
KKx3 Goku 24,000
KKx3 Kamehameha 27,000
Galick Gun 27,000
Spirit Bomb (Half Power) 30,000
KKx4 Kamehameha 32,000
KKx5 Goku (Hypothetical) 40,000
Oozaru Vegeta 45,000
Spirit Bomb (Full Power) 60,000
Oozaru Vegeta (Full Power, Unseen) 180,000