My position about the Base Kids power

[Natasha Romanoff]

First of all, let's establish the power of the characters faced/compared within them (on top of it, a little bit of analysis coming by me):

Goten and Trunks stated that 18 was stronger than Goku & Vegeta back then, but how does this matter?

Spoiler

Chapter: 452 (DBZ 258), P12.3
Trunks: “Don’t let your guard down, Goten…I heard that Kuririn’s wife was stronger than our papas a long time ago…”
Goten: “Ye-yeah, I know…!”

Because all evidence we're given is that they respect her because of that, they never said that she turned out to either be stronger or weaker (like in the Androids Saga in which Vegeta said that Android 19 was weaker than what it was told to them).

Spoiler

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P9.2-7
Context: as Trunks and Goten fight No.18 in their Mighty Mask costume
No.18: “…He really is a weird bastard…His arms and legs are extremely small for his body…And he’s so unusually strong…”
*they become Super Saiyans*
No.18: “!!”
Trunks: “Either way, we’re at a disadvantage in this getup, so we’ve got no choice but to settle this with a kiai cannon!”
Goten: “Eh! But will she be alright?...”
Trunks: “Don’t worry, she won’t die if we do it appropriately. She’s No.18…”

Having say this is pretty much clear that Android 18 (Buu Saga) = Android 18 (Cell Saga). Vegeta managed to land hits on 18 while Base Mighty Mask couldn't, we can say that he was in a costume, but it'd be speculative how he'd fare against her in a regular combat and we can't speculate of things that didn't happen. Also Vegeta gained Android 17's respect after watching how he fared against his twin sister.

Goten 90
Kid Trunks 93
Goku 95
Vegeta 100
Goten & Trunks ssj (A18 expectations) 102.3
Android 18 140

We know going by Super that ssj standing ki isn't that much ahead of base form ki

Spoiler

Then, we know that she actually put in doubt whether they're so strong as simple ssj's, but they were using a fraction of their power:

Spoiler

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P10.1-2
Context: as Trunks prepares to fire a ki blast at No.18
No.18: “…I see…Super Saiyan, huh?...I finally know your identity, boys…”
Goten: “Don’t do it at full force!”
Trunks: “I know, I know!”

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P12.4, P13.1
Context: after Trunks’ ki blast explodes
No.18: “Yo-you’ve got to be kidding…That energy bullet had absolutely incredible speed and destructive power…Co-could it be that those squirts have outrageous power?…This is dangerous! I’ve got to settle this fight soon!”

By Android 18 dodging feat, I can personally compare it to Kaioken x2 Goku's doding Vegeta, but he unlike her didn't put Vegeta's power into question, so the gap is more or less the same.

Spoiler

Chapter: 229 (DBZ 35), P13.5-6, P14.2
Goku: “Shit…!! His power and speed… [ ] I can’t keep up, even with the Kaio-Ken x2. [ ] I don’t care if my body breaks or I die! I’ve gotta up the Kaio-Ken to x3!!”

Goten & Trunks ssjs vs 18: 154 - 157.5

After training in the ROSAT, Piccolo expected a miracle which tell us that their gains individually weren't that great:

Spoiler

And this also would reinforce his previous comments about Goten and Trunks minimal gains being too big for Gotenks:

Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P13.2-3
Context: after Gotenks returns from fighting Boo
Gotenks: “I got the tar beaten out of me…”
Piccolo: “Alright, your fight with Majin Boo is 1 day from now! Until then, train as much as you can! If you get even a little bit stronger, it will be more effective when you perform Fusion. Got that, you miserable little punks?!”

We know that Piccolo turned out to be stronger than the base boys POST ROSAT as Goku stated that Piccolo is coming out strong after Gotenks defuses. Which tell us that it was never on Toriyama's intent for Goten and Trunks to be anywhere near the adults:

Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P10.4-5
Goku: “Hahha—ah! Piccolo’s coming out strong now! Looks like the Fused squirts have returned to normal! You ran out of time! Tooo—oo bad! Your power’s fallen a whole lot. Cheh…I’m a little disappointed. This way, Gohan will be able to beat you even on his own…”
Note: presumably be saying that "the Fused squirts have returned to normal", Goku means that Gotenks has split back up into Goten and Trunks, not merely that Gotenks' reverted from Super Saiyan 3 to regular Gotenks. At the very least, Goten and Trunks are separate by the time Goku and Vegeta find them inside of Boo.

I think Toriyama intended for Piccolo to be = to Android 17 as he left him in the dust and have Dabura stated him being trash. On top of it, his intention was to compare how Goten and Trunks compare with both Androids.

Base Goten & Trunks POST ROSAT 116.25
Piccolo 142.5
Android 17 142.5

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

@GreatSaiyaman123
@ahill1
@SIAD
What do you think?

 

[SIAD]

Because SSJ Gohan doesn't seem to be multiple times stronger than the SSJ Kids and I have SSJ Goku being many hundreds of times stronger than the Androids, I think the Base Kids are much more powerful than the Androids, even though they fight within a suit greatly restricts power.

Anyway, I have the Android #18 slightly stronger than the Arc Android because I train for the TB25, for the same reason, I have it a little stronger than the Base Mascara.

I think that having the Base Children between the level of the SSJ (Android) and many times stronger, is very valid.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

@SIAD

Android 18 is never shown training, only Krillin:

Spoiler

Having say this, I think is fair to assume that Android 18 didn't got stronger. However, I respect what you believe in this case. I simply don't share that it was Toriyama's intent.

 

[SIAD]

@SIAD

Android 18 is never shown training, only Krillin:

Spoiler

View attachment 2595View attachment 2596View attachment 2597View attachment 2598View attachment 2599

Having say this, I think is fair to assume that Android 18 didn't got stronger. However, I respect what you believe in this case. I simply don't share that it was Toriyama's intent.

Android #18 learned the kienzan. She must have trainined.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

we can't speculate of things that didn't happen.

Of course you can. Trunks suggests they could do much better if not for the suit. It’s not accurate to say he’d be at the same level regardless of the suit.

This is my only disagreement though. I’d say:

SSJ Mighty Mask: 900

Android 18: 720
~ Toying: 525 (Same lvl as Future 18 since Trunks didn’t notice she was stronger)

SSJ Mighty Mask (Expected): 625?

SSJ Vegeta/Base Kid Trunks: 500
Base Goten: 480
Mighty Mask: 450

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

@GreatSaiyaman123

Interesting view, but, would Trunks be aware of what happened in a distinct timeline? Super left us know that Future Trunks had to explain him everything in which their timelines disagree

Seems a good placement to think that 18 was initially using the same effort F18 would use, though. Also, Trunks never said that 18 was stronger than what the rumors told, so IMO Buu Saga 18 = Cell Saga 18.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Android #18 learned the kienzan. She must have trainined.

Well, Frieza could do the same technique on Namek, or at least something similar.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

@GreatSaiyaman123

Interesting view, but, would Trunks be aware of what happened in a distinct timeline? Super left us know that Future Trunks had to explain him everything in which their timelines disagree

I think it got a bit confusing because I meant Future Trunks up there. Future Trunks didn't notice Present > Future until he fought 18 himself, so Present 18 (Toying) = Future 18 (FP).

Seems a good placement to think that 18 was initially using the same effort F18 would use, though. Also, Trunks never said that 18 was stronger than what the rumors told, so IMO Buu Saga 18 = Cell Saga 18.

Kid Trunks just knows 18 used to be stronger than his dad. Does he know how strong his dad was? As you said before, Kid Trunks didn't know much about the Cell Saga events.

Also I think it would be pretty obvious to Goten and Trunks that 18 wasn't going 100% on them since they were being overwhelmed.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Kid Trunks just knows 18 used to be stronger than his dad. Does he know how strong his dad was? As you said before, Kid Trunks didn't know much about the Cell Saga events.

Same reason as to why Future Trunks knows at some exent how strong Goku was despite of having being killed since he was a baby.

On top of Kid Trunks being aware of the fact that Goku was once the strongest in the universe by Goten which is a clear reference to the Frieza Saga.

Also I think it would be pretty obvious to Goten and Trunks that 18 wasn't going 100% on them since they were being overwhelmed.

That's also a possibility as to why they felt in need to turn into SSJ.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Same reason as to why Future Trunks knows at some exent how strong Goku was despite of having being killed since he was a baby.

That’s because Gohan and Bulma kept telling him stories about Goku.

On top of Kid Trunks being aware of the fact that Goku was once the strongest in the universe by Goten which is a clear reference to the Frieza Saga.

Yeah but that’s also pretty vague and doesn’t say anything specific.

They heard 18 is strong and she is strong, no need to get into specifics. I think the boys would only be surprised if they defeated her easily or if she was above their SSJ powers.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

That’s because Gohan and Bulma kept telling him stories about Goku.

Only thing they told him is that Gohan wants to be as strong as him and Bulma told him that he is strong and about his enthusiasm. That is pretty short to measure someone strength

Spoiler

On top of it, the rumours turned out to be greater than it was told to him by Trunks himself.

Yeah but that’s also pretty vague and doesn’t say anything specific.

They heard 18 is strong and she is strong, no need to get into specifics. I think the boys would only be surprised if they defeated her easily or if she was above their SSJ powers.

Strong enough to respect her and call their attention.

Trunks knew that Goku was strongest in the universe once and that Goku and Vegeta were weaker than Android 18, from that they can pretty much grasp the situation. So, they are aware of many events of Earth before they were born.

It wouldn't be illogical to think that everyone told them about things that happened on Earth similar to Bulma and Gohan told Future Trunks.

 

[FeatsofPower]

I think 18 was using her full power against the boys, but I do think the boys were a little bit stronger. Remember, for Trunks to be doing this well, he certainly isn't any weaker, Trunks isn't getting beat up as badly as Vegeta was, and 18 held back against Vegeta.

18 (vs Mighty Mask) > 18 (vs Vegeta)

I think the kids are probably about as strong as 17 was.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Why would 18 hold back against someone who's trying to kill her but go all out on a tournament?

 

[FeatsofPower]

Why would 18 hold back against someone who's trying to kill her but go all out on a tournament?

Plot. Always assume full power unless otherwise suggested. If 18 was holding back, there would be some evidence of her going all out after she realized she was at a disadvantage. Instead, she submitted that their power was superior.

If we aren’t given a reason that explicitly states suppressing, it’s full power.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Plot. Always assume full power unless otherwise suggested. If 18 was holding back, there would be some evidence of her going all out after she realized she was at a disadvantage. Instead, she submitted that their power was superior.

If we aren’t given a reason that explicitly states suppressing, it’s full power.

That's not what happened at all. She smacked the boys around like nothing. Calling them strong is not an admission of inferiority. Hell, she's even confident on taking the SSJ Boys before they blast her.

 

[FeatsofPower]

She causes zero damage and Trunks is easily able to keep up with her in a real fight while literally being on someone’s shoulders lol. Imagine having a real fight in those conditions and doing well.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Err Trunks can't even hit 18. He's being overwhelmed the whole time and struggling to defend himself. Sure, it's the costume, but Trunks is on the verge of being clapped.

Is 18 going all out right off the bat or does she gradually raise her power? I think the latter makes more sense since she had no idea how strong MM really was.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Also "always assume full power" is a very extreme rule. Fighters seldom start all out and often, they often prefer to test the waters first, save stamina, and in the Budokais everyone always holds back. They make a big deal when they're starting all out from the start.

Sure 18 wants the prize, but she's in no hurry. She toyed with Vegeta. What's the hurry with MM? The boys aren't really pressuring her.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Err Trunks can't even hit 18. He's being overwhelmed the whole time and struggling to defend himself. Sure, it's the costume, but Trunks is on the verge of being clapped.

Is 18 going all out right off the bat or does she gradually raise her power? I think the latter makes more sense since she had no idea how strong MM really was.

He's literally in a costume. Can Conor McGregor hit someone while he's on his friend's shoulders? That would be a preposterous way to fight. It's gotta be a huge debuff.

Sure, it's the costume, but Trunks is on the verge of being clapped.

Not at all, he didn't even take any real damage. He's not in tremendous danger there.

Is 18 going all out right off the bat or does she gradually raise her power? I think the latter makes more sense since she had no idea how strong MM really was.

18 has no reason to play games with people. She's intended to take people out immediately. The only reason she doesn't finish Trunks off immediately is because she simply can't. Hence how she found out he was strong, because she went to beat him up and couldn't.

Also "always assume full power" is a very extreme rule. Fighters seldom start all out and often, they often prefer to test the waters first, save stamina, and in the Budokais everyone always holds back. They make a big deal when they're starting all out from the start.

It's not an extreme rule because of exactly that. Assume it, and provide the abundant evidence that it's not true. That's the author's traits. He will explicitly tell you when they are not at full power, so no reason to assume otherwise.

Sure 18 wants the prize, but she's in no hurry. She toyed with Vegeta. What's the hurry with MM? The boys aren't really pressuring her.

She's intending on getting the bag and dipping. She was playing with her food, but their was no money to be won playing with Vegeta. She took Mighty Mask more seriously than she took Vegeta. Mighty Mask comes with a huge bag, Vegeta did not. 18 cares about money. Krillen is broke. There is zero time for playing games, the welfare of her child is on the line.