My SSJ3 Goku>= Ultimate Gohan experiment

[withheldforprivacy]

Since AT said Buu Saga Goku is maxed out and, at the beginning of DBS, he is stated to be no1, here, i'll go for a list with Buu Saga SSJ3 Goku >=
Ultimate Gohan...

1. Five million years ago...
Kid Buu- 400
South Kai- 400
Dai Kai- 225
Buffed Buu- 800 (Kid + South)
Fat Buu- 225 (access only to Dai's power)

2. Fat Buu Saga...
SSJ2 Goku- 100
Fat Buu (initial)- 80
Fat Buu (1st speed up)- 120 (the power he prison bitched Gohan and Dabura with)
Fat Buu (2nd speed up)- 150 (the power he prison bitched Vegeta with)
SSJ3 Goku (faking it)- 160 (that's why, up to Kid Buu saga, he looks weaker than the next generation)
Gotenks- 105
SSJ Gotenks (1.33x)- 140 (has a chance against what they currently think to be Fat Buu's max)

3. Super Buu Saga...
Fat Buu (final power up)- 225 (the moment before splitting, he accesses the full Dai's power, which is then shared between two temporary
beings we never need to care about afterward)
Good Buu- 100
Grey Buu- 125
Super Buu (initial)- 225 (the sum of his particles)
Super Buu (max)- 300 (Dai's power plus some access to his other entities)
Gotenks- 150
SSJ Gotenks- 200
SSJ3 Gotenks (1.5x)- 300
Ultimate Gohan- 400

4. Kid Buu Saga...
Kid Buu- 400
FP SSJ3 Goku- 400
Mister Buu- 340 (Dai's power plus some access to South's power)

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Goku was definitely stronger than Gohan after defeating Majin Boo as Vegeta stated it clearly on Super.

Minute: 10~11
Context: Vegeta thinks about Goku as he gets increasing frustrated with being stuck at the resort instead of training (and people in the crowd keep bumping into him)
Vegeta: “After defeating Majin Boo, there should be no doubts that he’s Number One…But he stills keeps on training anyway…And so…I…can’t…stay here…and fall…even further…”
Significance: Calling back to his “you are Number One” speech at the end of the Boo arc, Vegeta restates that Goku is Number One, but now also says he isn’t content to remain Number Two (some people considered this inconsistent with his Boo arc speech).

 

[Keedounan]

Goku was definitely stronger than Gohan after defeating Majin Boo as Vegeta stated it clearly on Super.

Minute: 10~11
Context: Vegeta thinks about Goku as he gets increasing frustrated with being stuck at the resort instead of training (and people in the crowd keep bumping into him)
Vegeta: “After defeating Majin Boo, there should be no doubts that he’s Number One…But he stills keeps on training anyway…And so…I…can’t…stay here…and fall…even further…”
Significance: Calling back to his “you are Number One” speech at the end of the Boo arc, Vegeta restates that Goku is Number One, but now also says he isn’t content to remain Number Two (some people considered this inconsistent with his Boo arc speech).

Vegeta made the same statement in Boo arc, though. Herms even said it in the "significance" part.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Goku was definitely stronger than Gohan after defeating Majin Boo as Vegeta stated it clearly on Super.

Minute: 10~11
Context: Vegeta thinks about Goku as he gets increasing frustrated with being stuck at the resort instead of training (and people in the crowd keep bumping into him)
Vegeta: “After defeating Majin Boo, there should be no doubts that he’s Number One…But he stills keeps on training anyway…And so…I…can’t…stay here…and fall…even further…”
Significance: Calling back to his “you are Number One” speech at the end of the Boo arc, Vegeta restates that Goku is Number One, but now also says he isn’t content to remain Number Two (some people considered this inconsistent with his Boo arc speech).

Vegeta made the same statement in Boo arc, though. Herms even said it in the "significance" part.

Yes and a lot of fans made a counter argument on that Vegeta doesn't know how strong is Gohan and Gotenks but since it's been a several months after the death of Nope, Vegeta still believes that Goku is the strongest.

 

[Keedounan]

Goku was definitely stronger than Gohan after defeating Majin Boo as Vegeta stated it clearly on Super.

Vegeta made the same statement in Boo arc, though. Herms even said it in the "significance" part.

Yes and a lot of fans made a counter argument on that Vegeta doesn't know how strong is Gohan and Gotenks but since it's been a several months after the death of Nope, Vegeta still believes that Goku is the strongest.

He still considered himself as the number two, though:

Minute: 19~20
Vegeta: “Kakarot…The one I’ve acknowledged as the strongest Saiyan…But Kakarot, I have no intention of being content with staying
Number Two forever! Someday I will surpass you! No, I’ll surpass every living being in this universe…and become the supreme Number One!”
Significance: Again, Vegeta admits Goku is the strongest Saiyan, but is not content to remain in second place. This may imply Vegeta considers Goku stronger than Gohan/Gotenks at this point, unless by “strongest Saiyan” he means “strongest pure-blooded Saiyan”. Or he just refuses to acknowledge Gohan/Gotenks.

This would either mean:

* that Vegeta really surpassed them ,( which would make Goku vastly than them.
* or that he simply refuses to acknowledge Gohan and Gotenks as rivals, in which case Goku only requires to be near them in power.

With all of that said, considering that Gohan is too busy with his family and studies, and that the kids prefer to play around rather than train, I guess that it wouldn't be a stretch to believe that Goku surpassed them.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Vegeta made the same statement in Boo arc, though. Herms even said it in the "significance" part.

Yes and a lot of fans made a counter argument on that Vegeta doesn't know how strong is Gohan and Gotenks but since it's been a several months after the death of Nope, Vegeta still believes that Goku is the strongest.

He still considered himself as the number two, though:

Minute: 19~20
Vegeta: “Kakarot…The one I’ve acknowledged as the strongest Saiyan…But Kakarot, I have no intention of being content with staying
Number Two forever! Someday I will surpass you! No, I’ll surpass every living being in this universe…and become the supreme Number One!”
Significance: Again, Vegeta admits Goku is the strongest Saiyan, but is not content to remain in second place. This may imply Vegeta considers Goku stronger than Gohan/Gotenks at this point, unless by “strongest Saiyan” he means “strongest pure-blooded Saiyan”. Or he just refuses to acknowledge Gohan/Gotenks.

This would either mean:

* that Vegeta really surpassed them ,( which would make Goku vastly than them.
* or that he simply refuses to acknowledge Gohan and Gotenks as rivals, in which case Goku only requires to be near them in power.

With all of that said, considering that Gohan is too busy with his family and studies, and that the kids prefer to play around rather than train, I guess that it wouldn't be a stretch to believe that Goku surpassed them.

Goku is already the top dog in the end of Boo Arc as Vegeta said twice both in the old and new manga the only difference between them is that Goku has a SSjin3 form. Ignoring Gotenks power will fix the power levels on Boo arc as he was treated as a gag character both in old and new material.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

What if i lower Gohan to 360-375?

 

[Keedounan]

Yes and a lot of fans made a counter argument on that Vegeta doesn't know how strong is Gohan and Gotenks but since it's been a several months after the death of Nope, Vegeta still believes that Goku is the strongest.

He still considered himself as the number two, though:

Minute: 19~20
Vegeta: “Kakarot…The one I’ve acknowledged as the strongest Saiyan…But Kakarot, I have no intention of being content with staying
Number Two forever! Someday I will surpass you! No, I’ll surpass every living being in this universe…and become the supreme Number One!”
Significance: Again, Vegeta admits Goku is the strongest Saiyan, but is not content to remain in second place. This may imply Vegeta considers Goku stronger than Gohan/Gotenks at this point, unless by “strongest Saiyan” he means “strongest pure-blooded Saiyan”. Or he just refuses to acknowledge Gohan/Gotenks.

This would either mean:

* that Vegeta really surpassed them ,( which would make Goku vastly than them.
* or that he simply refuses to acknowledge Gohan and Gotenks as rivals, in which case Goku only requires to be near them in power.

With all of that said, considering that Gohan is too busy with his family and studies, and that the kids prefer to play around rather than train, I guess that it wouldn't be a stretch to believe that Goku surpassed them.

Goku is already the top dog in the end of Boo Arc as Vegeta said twice both in the old and new manga the only difference between them is that Goku has a SSjin3 form. Ignoring Gotenks power will fix the power levels on Boo arc as he was treated as a gag character both in old and new material.

Ignoring Gotenks doesn't fix everything, though. For example, Goku stated that he was no match for Super Buu and was evenly matched against Kid Buu. Yet, Vegeta thinks that he is number 1 despite the fact that he witnessed the power Boo lost when they took Gohan away. All the while thinking of himself as the number 2 despite the fact that he got beaten up by Fat Boo. It's one example among others.

The powerscaling in Boo arc is the most confusing one due to the pretty weird statements which contradict each others as well as the fact that there is never a direct statement on who is stronger between, say, Goku/Gohan (and Gotenks, to a lesser extent), or Kid Boo/Super Boo. In fact, there is less debates about it in BoG since Goku got stronger while Gohan and perhaps Gotenks got weaker, but it's still not set in stone.

As for my opinion, I'd say that Goku is weaker than Gotenks and Gohan, but surpassed them in BoG arc.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

He still considered himself as the number two, though:

Minute: 19~20
Vegeta: “Kakarot…The one I’ve acknowledged as the strongest Saiyan…But Kakarot, I have no intention of being content with staying
Number Two forever! Someday I will surpass you! No, I’ll surpass every living being in this universe…and become the supreme Number One!”
Significance: Again, Vegeta admits Goku is the strongest Saiyan, but is not content to remain in second place. This may imply Vegeta considers Goku stronger than Gohan/Gotenks at this point, unless by “strongest Saiyan” he means “strongest pure-blooded Saiyan”. Or he just refuses to acknowledge Gohan/Gotenks.

This would either mean:

* that Vegeta really surpassed them ,( which would make Goku vastly than them.
* or that he simply refuses to acknowledge Gohan and Gotenks as rivals, in which case Goku only requires to be near them in power.

With all of that said, considering that Gohan is too busy with his family and studies, and that the kids prefer to play around rather than train, I guess that it wouldn't be a stretch to believe that Goku surpassed them.

Goku is already the top dog in the end of Boo Arc as Vegeta said twice both in the old and new manga the only difference between them is that Goku has a SSjin3 form. Ignoring Gotenks power will fix the power levels on Boo arc as he was treated as a gag character both in old and new material.

Ignoring Gotenks doesn't fix everything, though. For example, Goku stated that he was no match for Super Buu and was evenly matched against Kid Buu. Yet, Vegeta thinks that he is number 1 despite the fact that he witnessed the power Boo lost when they took Gohan away. All the while thinking of himself as the number 2 despite the fact that he got beaten up by Fat Boo. It's one example among others.

The powerscaling in Boo arc is the most confusing one due to the pretty weird statements which contradict each others as well as the fact that there is never a direct statement on who is stronger between, say, Goku/Gohan (and Gotenks, to a lesser extent), or Kid Boo/Super Boo. In fact, there is less debates about it in BoG since Goku got stronger while Gohan and perhaps Gotenks got weaker, but it's still not set in stone.

As for my opinion, I'd say that Goku is weaker than Gotenks and Gohan, but surpassed them in BoG arc.

Yes it fix everything. Super Boo didn't get 10x stronger than Fat Boo, Goku probably never want to use SSjin3 infront of Vegeta at that time since he wanted to use fusion. When did Vegeta thought himself as no.2 during the Boo Arc?

Goku is probably near on Super Boo's level but still weaker than him since the fusion between Gohan and him can work which needs two individual power to be equal. Moreover, it takes Southern Kaioshin to change the gap between Super Boo and Pure Boo.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

I think Tosh somehow guessed Fearless Hit's password and logged into his account.

 

[Void]

Goku literally States that if he and Vegeta go outside of Super Boo's body that they'll be killed due to being "no match for his strength".

Goku then welcomes a battle with Kid Boo. The manga makes it clear which Boo is stronger.

I assume this list is for Super though? Goku and Vegeta are definitely treated as the top guys in BoG.

 

[Keedounan]

I think Toshit somehow guessed Fearless Hit's password and logged into his account.

No. Tosh would have never admitted that Goku (Boo arc) could be weaker than anyone

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

There are two evidences that Goku is in the same league or level with Gohan,

a. The fusion between him and Gohan is possible which require to equal individual powers to work.
b. Pure Boo + Southern Kaioshin = Buff Boo > Super Boo

 

[Super Neko Majin Z]

I've given up on Buu arc power scaling. In its own way it's as bad as Super.

 

[xmysticgohanx]

I change everyone once in a while between these view points:

1. BoG arc SSJ3 Goku > BoG SSJ2 Vegeta (no rage) > Gohan > Gotenks > Boo arc SSJ3 Goku > Boo arc SSJ2 Vegeta

And

2. BoG SSJ3 Goku > BoG SSJ2 Vegeta (no rage) > Boo SSJ3 Goku > Gohan > Gotenks > Boo SSJ2 Vegeta

 

[Keedounan]

There are two evidences that Goku is in the same league or level with Gohan,

a. The fusion between him and Gohan is possible which require to equal individual powers to work.

So, you think that Goku wanting to fuse with Gohan would make him close to his power. Ignoring the statements > implications rule, there is a problem with this reasoning: Goku also wanted to fuse with Gohan or Vegeta back when Fat Boo was flying around. While we can ignore the SSJ3 to make it work with Vegeta, the same can't be said for Gohan, who was much weaker than he was as a kid at this point.

Plus, AT seems to take some liberty with the rules of the fusion, as the two persons were supposed to have similar power and size. Goku wanted to fuse with Vegeta, despite the fact that he is one head taller than him.

Pure Boo + Southern Kaioshin = Buff Boo > Super Boo

I wonder why you're using Buff Boo, considering he never fought anyone. Besides, the Kais were implied to have an effect more significant than a mere addition or substraction. Kid Boo's performance against Goku was much better than Fat Boo's despite the fact that the latter simply absorbed two persons who were arguably weaker than SSJ Gohan.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

So, you think that Goku wanting to fuse with Gohan would make him close to his power. Ignoring the statements > implications rule, there is a problem with this reasoning: Goku also wanted to fuse with Gohan or Vegeta back when Fat Boo was flying around. While we can ignore the SSJ3 to make it work with Vegeta, the same can't be said for Gohan, who was much weaker than he was as a kid at this point.

Chapter: 469 (DBZ 275), P6.1-7
Context: after Goku laments that Gohan and Vegeta are dead
Goku: “I coulda used Fusion…”
Dende: “Fusion…! Merging together, right? That’s the specialty art of the people of Planet Metamor!”
Goku: “So you know about it, Dende…! That’s right, some people from Metamor who I met in the afterlife taught me that art…It’s a merging technique which can only be performed if two people are fairly close in both power and body size…In other words, by having two people merge into one, they’re able to become a single, new human with amazing power which either of them on their own absolutely wouldn’t be capable of. It really is incredible! Those two from Metamor were completely weak and gentle on their own, but by using Fusion they transformed into a substantial warrior! [ ] …I was just taught the art, but I ain’t never tested it out…There wasn’t anybody on par with me in the afterlife…”

It takes a same size/height and power in order to make the fusion work, SSjin2 Goku and Vegeta are equal and Gohan is weaker than them but the fusion can still work. Besides, Goku didn't try the fusion on himself but he knew what it takes the fusion to get right. Gohan is just probably around half of Goku's power, if the fusion won't work on them then he'll just fuse with Vegeta.

Plus, AT seems to take some liberty with the rules of the fusion, as the two persons were supposed to have similar power and size. Goku wanted to fuse with Vegeta, despite the fact that he is one head taller than him.

Vegeta's size is inconsistent throughout the series so that's just a plot when its needed too just like M12.

I wonder why you're using Buff Boo, considering he never fought anyone. Besides, the Kais were implied to have an effect more significant than a mere addition or substraction. Kid Boo's performance against Goku was much better than Fat Boo's despite the fact that the latter simply absorbed two persons who were arguably weaker than SSJ Gohan.

Buff Boo was stated to be stronger than Super Boo and is the sum of Pure Boo and Southern Kaioshin. Absorption doesn't work on DAIKAIOSHIN because of his nature not his power that overcame Pure Boo's personality and power.

 

[Keedounan]

Chapter: 469 (DBZ 275), P6.1-7
Context: after Goku laments that Gohan and Vegeta are dead
Goku: “I coulda used Fusion…”
Dende: “Fusion…! Merging together, right? That’s the specialty art of the people of Planet Metamor!”
Goku: “So you know about it, Dende…! That’s right, some people from Metamor who I met in the afterlife taught me that art…It’s a merging technique which can only be performed if two people are fairly close in both power and body size…In other words, by having two people merge into one, they’re able to become a single, new human with amazing power which either of them on their own absolutely wouldn’t be capable of. It really is incredible! Those two from Metamor were completely weak and gentle on their own, but by using Fusion they transformed into a substantial warrior! [ ] …I was just taught the art, but I ain’t never tested it out…There wasn’t anybody on par with me in the afterlife…”

It takes a same size/height and power in order to make the fusion work

Yes, I've stated it.

SSjin2 Goku and Vegeta are equal and Gohan is weaker than them but the fusion can still work.

Besides, Goku didn't try the fusion on himself but he knew what it takes the fusion to get right. Gohan is just probably around half of Goku's power, if the fusion won't work on them then he'll just fuse with Vegeta.

If you think the fusion can still work despite the fact that he is outclassed even by his power as kid, itself weaker than Goku and Vegeta, then there is no reason to assume that Goku is close to Gohan in power.

As for the part "if the fusion won't work on them...", I could argue the same for Goku and Gohan. After all, Goku only stated this idea without thinking things through (for example, he didn't thought about the time it would take to fuse right before Bootenks), and he didn't even tested it beforehand.

The mere fact that the "evidence" requires Goku to think that he rivals Gohan in power defeat its purpose, since he himself admitted that he wouldn't win a fight against Super Boo. Considering that he and Vegeta were the only ones left to fight Boo at this point, he had no reason to lie.

Vegeta's size is inconsistent throughout the series so that's just a plot when its needed too just like M12.

Sometimes, Vegeta's size is drawn strangely indeed. But most of the times, he is one head smaller than Goku. Therefore, the argument still stand.

Buff Boo was stated to be stronger than Super Boo and is the sum of Pure Boo and Southern Kaioshin. Absorption doesn't work on DAIKAIOSHIN because of his nature not his power that overcame Pure Boo's personality and power.

If he really was just adding his power, then why does he make Super Boo (who doesn't get his power nerfed nearly as much as Fat Boo) that powerful compared to Goku? The latter preferred to fuse permanently with Vegeta, then a risky fusion (just look at M12 with "Veku") rather than trying to take him on, which is an out-of-character moment that I judge serious enough to believe that Goku indeed isn't stronger than Super Boo, especially when he had simply no reason to hide his strength.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

If you think the fusion can still work despite the fact that he is outclassed even by his power as kid, itself weaker than Goku and Vegeta, then there is no reason to assume that Goku is close to Gohan in power.

Gohan is not the only option, Gohan can still get stronger if he was still alive and Vegeta was there as well. Goku can lower his power to Gohan in order the fusion to work especially the gap between them isn't over 2x.

As for the part "if the fusion won't work on them...", I could argue the same for Goku and Gohan. After all, Goku only stated this idea without thinking things through (for example, he didn't thought about the time it would take to fuse right before Bootenks), and he didn't even tested it beforehand.

Elder Kaioshin agrees with Goku that fusion can work against Bootenks but there's no time for Gohan to learn it and Boo won't let them anyway.

The mere fact that the "evidence" requires Goku to think that he rivals Gohan in power defeat its purpose, since he himself admitted that he wouldn't win a fight against Super Boo. Considering that he and Vegeta were the only ones left to fight Boo at this point, he had no reason to lie.

Goku doesn't have to be stronger than Super Boo in order for fusion to work with Gohan, he just have to be in the same league.

Sometimes, Vegeta's size is drawn strangely indeed. But most of the times, he is one head smaller than Goku. Therefore, the argument still stand.

Vegeta went on being shorter than Bulma into being taller than her throughout the series, besides if I remember correctly, Toriyama wanted to used Gogeta in the manga but since Toei used Gogeta first that forced Toriyama to introduce another type of fusion. In other words, the fusion between Goku and Vegeta will be equal had Toriyama used Gogeta instead Vegito.

If he really was just adding his power, then why does he make Super Boo (who doesn't get his power nerfed nearly as much as Fat Boo) that powerful compared to Goku? The latter preferred to fuse permanently with Vegeta, then a risky fusion (just look at M12 with "Veku") rather than trying to take him on, which is an out-of-character moment that I judge serious enough to believe that Goku indeed isn't stronger than Super Boo, especially when he had simply no reason to hide his strength.

I never said that Goku is stronger than Super Boo, but the gap between them isn't over 2x like the PL purist claimed to be. I could see it like Gohan/Vegeta type from the early Boo arc gap where Gohan is weaker than Vegeta but not over 2x weak.

 

[Keedounan]

Well then, what else can I say if I missed your point, lol