Nappa Saga No Scouters

[FeatsofPower]

I think the scouter numbers might be hurting our ability to properly interpret this segment of the story.

How do we feel about Chaozu versus the Saibamen? I'll have to look into this more, but Yamcha seems to be able to go toe to toe with them, but then thinks he can take them all out. We know Chaozu was previously quite significantly below Yamcha at the 23rd Budokai and now shouldn't be different.

Krillen is a bit above Yamcha at the 23rd Budokai, but the numbers AT gives at the Raditz Saga indicate perhaps Krillen is a bit further ahead now.

Krillen is able to take out the remaining Saibaman as Yamcha indicated he'd be able to do. I'd say Yamcha and Krillen can still be close rivals as they've been since the 22nd Budokai. Nothing wrong with making Krillen a bit stronger, but I think that still kind of works.

Tien should still be Tien, a full step ahead of Krillen. He isn't wildly stronger, but he should have a big of an advantage. They do say, "Well, that's Tien for you." So honestly, the bigger gap here the better. Tien doesn't decimate the Saibaman terribly, but he has quite the advantage for sure.

How much of a gap over the Saibamen? Maybe 1.5x? Maybe 1.4? Perhaps even less? He is essentially one shotting them so we should consider the end game feat here too.

Piccolo should be a couple steps above that. I think the numbers we have are a bit too restrictive. He should be above Tien more than Tien is above Krillen and Yamcha.

Kikoho should be miles ahead of everyone. Piccolo considers Nappa immortal for walking past that unfazed. It's clear Kikoho could easily take out Piccolo.

Enraged Gohan should be several steps above Piccolo. I do think Masenko caused more damage than Kikoho but I don't think they have to be worlds apart.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Chaozu is probably below the Saibaman. Remember, he was never really strong, and any little power he had was due to telekinesis. Yamcha turned out to be talking out of his ass on the confidence since he didn’t even kill that one Saiba.

I think 1.33x for Tien is good. I can see Recoome finishing Vegeta like that. 1.5x is even more casual, think Goku vs Recoome. Tien took the Saibaman seriously IIRC.

Yamcha: 1400
Kuririn: 1500
Tien: 1600

Bump Yamcha up a bit from 1350 and he’s closer to Tien than Tien is to Piccolo’s minimum (2000).

There’s two things we gotta answer so we can find Piccolo:
1) How close can he be to Enraged Gohan?
2) Did Gohan get a Masenko amp or not?

 

[FeatsofPower]

Yamcha turned out to be talking out of his ass on the confidence since he didn’t even kill that one Saiba.

Yamcha's confidence shouldn't go unchecked. Uncontradicted character statements are true.

I don't think him not fully finishing the Saibaman doesn't mean he can't do it. Yamcha might be talking about fighting one on one with each Saibaman. Considering how quickly he took out this one, it is possible. Setting up an easy afterimage to Kamehameha can be done easily.

Yamcha also has other tricks up his sleeve and is a ki master. It's possible he has an attack just like Krillen's. Considering they trained together, it is very possible they shared a similar technique. Yamcha shouldn't be too far away from Krillen as well.

I think 1.33x for Tien is good. I can see Recoome finishing Vegeta like that. 1.5x is even more casual, think Goku vs Recoome. Tien took the Saibaman seriously IIRC.

You know I'm queasy about 1.33x finishing fights quickly. But I guess with Cui vs Vegeta and Reecome vs Vegeta, these are indeed possible. Also, Goku struggled with KKx3 strain, so it very well could be that 1.33x is indeed enough to manhandle someone rather quickly.

Bump Yamcha up a bit from 1350 and he’s closer to Tien than Tien is to Piccolo’s minimum (2000).

I might want to bump Krillen down to 1,400 and give Tien a little breathing room. Krillen is 1,500 on Namek after a month of training or he didn't improve at all? Is he really wearing a weighted shirt? Why only a shirt? Maybe it was hot? Goku has the same shirt on. But we do see Krillen changing before the fight with the Saiyans, right?

Tien at 1,600 is as low as we can go for sure.

There’s two things we gotta answer so we can find Piccolo:
1) How close can he be to Enraged Gohan?
2) Did Gohan get a Masenko amp or not?

I would love to make Piccolo 2,250.

But what about Kikoho and Gohan/Masenko.

It's very possible Gohan gets no amp for Masenko the way Vegeta reacts to it.

 

[Kyo]

Krillin’s shirt on Namek is definitely weighted. Up to you if he improved at all or not.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Krillin’s shirt on Namek is definitely weighted. Up to you if he improved at all or not.

How do we work it?

Weighted Krillen/Gohan 1,500

Unweighted Krillen?
Gohan?

Gohan > Krillen on Kami's Ship.

What's best to handle this situation?

 

[Kyo]

Start at 1650 for Krillin. If you do that then you’re forced to assume he’s weaker on Earth, which is fine by me since the image training must’ve done something. Make unweighted Krillin on Earth = weighted Krillin on Namek, that’ll look nice. And beyond just looking nice, the issue I have with 1400 is it’s too close to the Saibamen. 1440 would be better if you really want it lower than 1500. 1.2x over the Saibamen is probably okay. Maybe.

I don’t know about Gohan.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Start at 1650 for Krillin. If you do that then you’re forced to assume he’s weaker on Earth, which is fine by me since the image training must’ve done something. Make unweighted Krillin on Earth = weighted Krillin on Namek, that’ll look nice. And beyond just looking nice, the issue I have with 1400 is it’s too close to the Saibamen. 1440 would be better if you really want it lower than 1500. 1.2x over the Saibamen is probably okay. Maybe.

I don’t know about Gohan.

Yeah, 1500 is probably perfect for Krillen on Earth.

Let's try the ones I always use.

Krillen Earth 1,500 = Weighted Krillen Namek
Krillen Namek 1,750

Ok and Gohan should be a little stronger.

1,800?

But man, Krillen seems completely exhausted and overwhelmed by Gohan's power in the image training.

How do you know for sure Krillen is wearing weights?


EDIT

Hmm, 1,600 vs 1.800 is probably better.

Krillen Weighted 1,400
Gohan 1,800

Krillen Unweighted 1,600

That might work.

 

[Kyo]

Like you said, because we see him changing out of that same undershirt before flying to meet the Saiyans. The Namek scene alone you might be able to handwave, but the one on Earth is blatant: removing clothing right before a fight = that clothing was weighted. Piccolo removes his weighted cape and hat too -- there's a clear parallel there. Krillin also changes his shoes in both scenes (although his "weighted" shoes in one scene are boots, while in the other they're just a different pair of shoes; however, his "unweighted" shoes are the same in both scenes); if you look at the Namek scene alone, you could maybe say he just wants to shed a layer of clothing, but his shoes too?

Sidenote, but I'd bet the average reader completely glosses over and would be surprised at this attention to detail from Toriyama.

1800 vs 1600 is decent.

 

[Father]

How much of a timeframe is there from
end of the Saiyan saga to beginning of the namek saga? There’s an additional time gap for traveling to Namek from space right?

I can understand Gohan getting stronger
via zenkai and noobie gains, but I don’t see
how Krillen is gaining any strength when he’s not a Saiyan, and when all he probably managed to do during that time was recover from all his injuries.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Krillen Weighted 1,400
Gohan 1,800

Krillen Unweighted 1,600

This is perfect. One is a little bit under 1500, the other is a little bit above. Truly “around” 1500.

Uncontradicted character statements are true.

But it is contradicted. He underestimated the one Saibaman he fought. He could’ve beaten it sure, but should’ve used more effort than that. If we’re including Ki control and techniques, then that’s beyond his power level.

You know I'm queasy about 1.33x finishing fights quickly. But I guess with Cui vs Vegeta and Reecome vs Vegeta, these are indeed possible. Also, Goku struggled with KKx3 strain, so it very well could be that 1.33x is indeed enough to manhandle someone rather quickly.

1.33x is basically the mid effort stomp gap. Not quite one shot, but the stronger guy isn’t sweating either.

I would love to make Piccolo 2,250.

But what about Kikoho and Gohan/Masenko.

It's very possible Gohan gets no amp for Masenko the way Vegeta reacts to it.

Kikoho could be closing in on Masenko, at 2500 or 2700.

No Masenko amp makes everything so much easier. Much more room here and for Gohan vs Vegeta later. Let’s do it man, to hell with that amp.

 

[SSJ2]

Yamcha turned out to be talking out of his ass on the confidence since he didn’t even kill that one Saiba.

Maybe he was planning to use the Sokidan. In the 23rd Budokai it was treated as superior to the KHH, and it definitely has the speed required to take on multiple Saibamen at once.

 

[FeatsofPower]

This is perfect. One is a little bit under 1500, the other is a little bit above. Truly “around” 1500.

First shot but I think it might stick thanks.

No Masenko amp makes everything so much easier. Much more room here and for Gohan vs Vegeta later. Let’s do it man, to hell with that amp.

It really does. Ok let’s try it out and see what happens.

Maybe he was planning to use the Sokidan. In the 23rd Budokai it was treated as superior to the KHH, and it definitely has the speed required to take on multiple Saibamen at once.

Nice, yeah maybe he sends the Spirit Ball flying and KOs them all. Definitley seems possible.