new DB Power levels

[FeatsofPower]

Could be the case, but still don't think it's any different from Videl suggesting Piccolo > Gotenks in the next scene.

Video’s statement is contradicted whereas Piccolo’s statement is not.

Not really making an argument here, but it's really weird how Gotenks got dismissed without even transforming.

Yeah the anime blew it. Gotenks should definitely be Super Saiyan 3.

But yeah, we have a clear as day Base Gotenks > Majin Buu implication coming from the following saga so after that I pretty much ended the discussion for me. I realized the only thing holding me back was incredulity at Gotenks power, my personal taste for power levels, and other sort of feelings based arguments that don’t hold up rationally.

 

[Kyo]

yeah fuck ur feelings

 

[SIAD]

Goku SSJ2 = 100
SSJ3 = 400

Gotenks Base = 180
SSJ = 450

Gotenks Base (Post) = 900
SSJ = 2,250
SSJ2 = 4,500
SSJ3 = 9,000

Ultimate Gohan = 12,000

BoG:

Goku / Vegeta SSJ2 = 12,500
SSJ3 = 50,000

 

[FeatsofPower]

The only times I ever argue anything other than Base > Ssj is when I'm doing power levels.

If we just simple read what's given to us, it's very simple. Gotenks previous Super Saiyan power was not enough to stand a chance against Buu, and now, even in his regular form, he's about equal to that level of power that made his previous Ssj power look like nothing.

It's that simple. I mean, there are multiple lines dedicated to it. Multiple characters and so on. Every single Base Fusion we've ever seen has been tremendously strong. Like ridiculously strong.

Why would Gotenks be different?

Base Gotenks Post > Ssj Gotenks Pre > Base Gotenks Pre > Majin Vegeta

Has always seemed to be the best power chain, power levels be damned.

But once you start doing the numbers, you are super enticed to start "fixing things"

How about the Ssj Rose vs Ssj Blue Vegeta debacle and then Vegeta powering up tremendously and then Goku somehow matching Vegeta.

That's like 100x worse than this. Sometimes the story gets in the way for our power scaling justification system. We want the numbers to make sense. It doesn't seem to work out that way.

We want to minimize the numbers, but they aren't supposed to be minimzed.

 

[FeatsofPower]

The Gero situation is more difficult. You have two contradicting ideas, you have to choose one.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

even in his regular form, he's about equal to that level of power that made his previous Ssj power look like nothing.

When? He was no match for Boo without SSJ3.

 

[FeatsofPower]

When? He was no match for Boo without SSJ3.

Because Gotenks can measure his own power against himself?

Gotenks knows his Base power now exceeds his Super Saiyan power. The implication makes it a fact, regardless of Super Buu.

Base Gotenks Post ~ Super Buu Estimated >> Ssj Gotenks Pre

And after we see Gotenks get smashes all that means is...

Super Buu (Actual) >>> Super Buu (Estimated)

That's it.

Piccolo, Trunks, and Goten all agree that Base Gotenks Post > Ssj Gotenks Pre.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Because Gotenks can measure his own power against himself?

Gotenks knows his Base power now exceeds his Super Saiyan power. The implication makes it a fact, regardless of Super Buu.

Base Gotenks Post ~ Super Buu Estimated >> Ssj Gotenks Pre

And after we see Gotenks get smashes all that means is...

Super Buu (Actual) >>> Super Buu (Estimated)

That's it.

Piccolo, Trunks, and Goten all agree that Base Gotenks Post > Ssj Gotenks Pre.

But Gotenks is not a reliable source to talk of his own power. If you were took him at face value he’d be the strongest character in the series. He’s in complete denial and keeps trying to fight in base even after he’s clearly outmatched.

His thought process isn’t “I’m above Boo because I’m above my old SSJ self”, it’s “I’m above Boo because I’m great”. He would claim that regardless of his power, because that’s what he does. Pre Rosat he considered himself above Boo when everyone knew he wasn’t strong enough. Based on all his scenes and lines, why do you think he wouldn’t overrate his new base power?

Piccolo, Goten and Trunks are all treated as laughing stock. They’re not mouthpieces of the author, and they’re not acting logically. They’re idiots for the reader to laugh at. The story actively portrays Gotenks as someone we should not believe. Doing that is kinda embarrassing.

 

[FeatsofPower]

But Gotenks is not a reliable source to talk of his own power. If you were took him at face value he’d be the strongest character in the series. He’s in complete denial and keeps trying to fight in base even after he’s clearly outmatched.

Sure, he overhypes himself, but he should still have some basic ki sensing. The key thing to remember here is, what do all other Base Fusions look like? The answer is, simply amazing. Insane power. Base Gotenks being Super Saiyan 2 tier, and then post training being Super Saiyan 3 tier is in line with every other fusion we've ever seen.

It's not just Gotenks. It's Trunks, Goten, Piccolo, and Gotenks.

Also, these power placements don't contradict anything other than our sensibilities.

Piccolo, Goten and Trunks are all treated as laughing stock. They’re not mouthpieces of the author, and they’re not acting logically. They’re idiots for the reader to laugh at. The story actively portrays Gotenks as someone we should not believe. Doing that is kinda embarrassing.

Agreed with all of that. It doesn't change anything though in regards to power. Gotenks can still be that strong and warrant those reactions. You just don't like the numbers.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Sure, he overhypes himself, but he should still have some basic ki sensing. The key thing to remember here is, what do all other Base Fusions look like? The answer is, simply amazing. Insane power. Base Gotenks being Super Saiyan 2 tier, and then post training being Super Saiyan 3 tier is in line with every other fusion we've ever seen.

It's not just Gotenks. It's Trunks, Goten, Piccolo, and Gotenks.

But he doesn’t. If the boys merged when Super Boo arrived he’d have acted the exact same way.

Gotenks can’t hold a candle to Vegetto/Gogeta or Kefla. He’s pretty out of his depth in this comparison. Base Vegetto is already SSJ3 tier, you’re trying to group him with Gotenks.

Goten and Trunks are Gotenks. Piccolo debunks Gotenks Pre instantly. Post is more debatable, but the whole Rosat fight Piccolo was grasping at straws. Whenever Gotenks did something (Like when he headbutts Boo or uses the Galactic Donut) he starts to hope it’s a change in the tide.

Agreed with all of that. It doesn't change anything though in regards to power. Gotenks can still be that strong and warrant those reactions. You just don't like the numbers.

He can be, but why would he? Why would we look at these characters who the story portrays as bumbling fools and say “They sort of have a point”. You keep saying you don’t like it either, but everybody knows you always had a thing for bloating.

 

[Goku9001]

He can be, but why would he? Why would we look at these characters who the story portrays as bumbling fools and say “They sort of have a point”. You keep saying you don’t like it either, but everybody knows you always had a thing for bloating.

You can make the same argument against Vegeta and yet the story still presents Vegeta as one of the greatest geniuses in the series. This is a cop-out and doesn't address the bottom line that every character has something in common i.e. their ability to sense ki and evaluate it. The only reason they were wrong is because Buu can fake his ki which is presented as one of Buu's special abilities from the moment he was introduced. Anyone can piece together why everyone, including Piccolo, had underestimated Buu and yet you're convinced that every character is suddenly bumbling fools who don't know how to sense ki.

That's not the case. There have to be specific circumstances that would have prevented them from sensing and evaluating ki altogether and there are none. "But it's a gag" doesn't address the underlying point. It can still be a gag and still present authentic information. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

You can make the same argument against Vegeta and yet the story still presents Vegeta as one of the greatest geniuses in the series. This is a cop-out and doesn't address the bottom line that every character has something in common i.e. their ability to sense ki and evaluate it. The only reason they were wrong is because Buu can fake his ki which is presented as one of Buu's special abilities from the moment he was introduced. Anyone can piece together why everyone, including Piccolo, had underestimated Buu and yet you're convinced that every character is suddenly bumbling fools who don't know how to sense ki.

That's not the case. There have to be specific circumstances that would have prevented them from sensing and evaluating ki altogether and there are none. "But it's a gag" doesn't address the underlying point. It can still be a gag and still present authentic information. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

And Gotenks is presented as one of the most unreliable characters in the series, to the point he’s been written out of Super because nobody trusts him. At least Vegeta knew he couldn’t beat Boo.

This has nothing to do with Boo’s perceived Ki. Pre Rosat everybody knew Gotenks wasn’t strong enough but he insisted he was. Post is just a repetition of that, common sense is pointless if you’re delusional. Worth pointing out Boo never powered up to face Gotenks. This “speciwl ability” you’re talking about is suppression.

But the point of the scene is that the information wasn’t authentic, that’s what’s blatantly shown. Gotenks thinks he can beat Super Boo, but he can’t. That’s the fact. SSJ Pre being surpassed is a consequence of the main Gotenks ~ Boo statement, so why should it be true when the main one isn’t? Would Gotenks not have acted the same way without Rosat?

The gag here is the characters acting stupid. If you say they’re right, you’re basically saying there’s no gag.

 

[Goku9001]

And Gotenks is presented as one of the most unreliable characters in the series, to the point he’s been written out of Super because nobody trusts him. At least Vegeta knew he couldn’t beat Boo.

This has nothing to do with Boo’s perceived Ki. Pre Rosat everybody knew Gotenks wasn’t strong enough but he insisted he was. Post is just a repetition of that, common sense is pointless if you’re delusional. Worth pointing out Boo never powered up to face Gotenks. This “speciwl ability” you’re talking about is suppression.

But the point of the scene is that the information wasn’t authentic, that’s what’s blatantly shown. Gotenks thinks he can beat Super Boo, but he can’t. That’s the fact. SSJ Pre being surpassed is a consequence of the main Gotenks ~ Boo statement, so why should it be true when the main one isn’t? Would Gotenks not have acted the same way without Rosat?

The gag here is the characters acting stupid. If you say they’re right, you’re basically saying there’s no gag.

That has nothing to do with the conversation. Being unreliable has no bearing on whether or not the kids, not Gotenks, could sense ki and evaluate ki properly. The fact that Goten and Trunks made the same judgement as Piccolo would mean that there was some credibility behind that. Their lack of participation in Super is due to their lack of interest as characters and their lack of battle experience. They're kids who fool around so they are more prone to screwing up and they are boring characters. I wouldn't want them in Super either. Toyotaro and Toriyama realized this which is why they spiced them up in the most recent manga arc.

I genuinely love how you say, "It has nothing to do with Buu's perceived ki" and then try to explain it away with complete frabiratcions. Goten, Trunks, and Piccolo can all sense and evaluate ki. Piccolo is the pragmatic one who lacks confidence and was the only one reluctant for Gotenks to battle Buu let alone fight Buu without transforming. It's only after his training that Piccolo regains confidence. That would mean that there had to be reason for him to have changed his mind. He can sense and evaluate ki so the gag being that Piccolo was just stupid is out the window. The fact that no one besides Piccolo understood Super Buu's increased strength would be the same reason why everyone underestimated Fat Buu. Goku was the only one who immediately picked up on the fact that Fat Buu was far stronger than he was letting on when everyone couldn't. Piccolo was the only one who immediately picked up on the fact that Super Buu was far stronger than Fat Buu. Almost seems like these situations parallel eachother, huh?

The only thing that was proven wrong is that Gotenks couldn't beat Super Buu, i.e Super Buu was far stronger than he was projecting. How this somehow guarantees your conclusion is left to be seen because what we are arguing is why Gotenks was wrong. It isn't because the author was deliberately lying to its readers on two occasions, I can tell you that much.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Damn that was ferocious, come on @GreatSaiyaman123 you gotta admit your arguments are all fallacies and feelings. The story is clear.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

The story is clear… that this is a satire. Base Gotenks spends several pages insisting he’s stronger than Boo and trying to hit him. That should be more telling than Ki sensing, but he refuses to believe it. Why? Because he’s a fucking idiot. That’s what he’s written to be.

They could be sensing whatever from Boo, Gotenks will always say he’s the strongest and Piccolo believed him because he was praying for a miracle. Check the full Gotenks vs Boo fight: Every time Gotenks does anything, Piccolo says “Maybe he can do it” like a cheerleader. He’s just being optimistic. Yeah they can sense and evaluate Ki, but they’re entitled to their own interpretations, as flawed as they may be.

You guys are basically cherry picking what to believe. I get it, the logic is “Sure Gotenks can’t beat Boo, but if he at least thought then he must be half right”, but that’s not how it works. If he’s wrong, he’s wrong. You don’t get half points for believing a fallacy. Trunks sensed SSJ3 Goku and Base Gotenks thought he could beat Fat Boo, I guess he’s above SSJ3 Goku?
This is what the genius Piccolo thinks of Gotenks:

Spoiler

Not a single moment of doubt or confusion. No “hey Boo was fooling us again!” moment. He straight up realizes they were full of shit.

Btw, talking about Boo’s Ki, Trunks said he didn’t notice a difference. So by Trunks/Gotenks’ perspective, Base Post > SSJ Pre was never even suggested. You’re chasing something that’s never even implied.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Actually if Boo is so hard to sense, how do the boys know Boo’s power at all? They just know Boo > Base Gotenks Pre. SSJ Gotenks Pre could beat him, and as I said Trunks didn’t believe there was a power up from Fat to Super. Sure Piccolo told them otherwise, but when does Gotenks ever listen to Piccolo?

 

[FeatsofPower]

So Super Buu’s ki remains the same as it was, with it being significantly stronger than Ssj Gotenks Pre?

Super Buu 5
Ssj Gotenks Post 5
Ssj Gotenks Pre 3

Or something like that? Only take the Ssj implications seriously and so on? I think I’ve held this position before, it’s tough not to fall back on it because it does make life way way easier. Lol

do you have anything in Super to support your position?

Damn I think I’m converted. lol.

 

[FeatsofPower]

How is Pui Pui only 30 million when Shin is shocked that Vegeta can easily dispose of him? That makes zero sense. If Pui Pui is weaker than Freeza, how would this make sense?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

So Super Buu’s ki remains the same as it was, with it being significantly stronger than Ssj Gotenks Pre?

Super Buu 5
Ssj Gotenks Post 5
Ssj Gotenks Pre 3

Or something like that? Only take the Ssj implications seriously and so on? I think I’ve held this position before, it’s tough not to fall back on it because it does make life way way easier. Lol

do you have anything in Super to support your position?

Damn I think I’m converted. lol.

Super Boo >> SSJ Gotenks Post. It's even possible Boo was at full power all along.

I'm going to repeat myself here, but I think it's good to hammer it down. Gotenks always says he's up to the job, even when he isn't. This is what I get from Super: He tries fighting Copy-Vegeta and Freeza (Although SSJ Gotenks > 1st form Freeza is possible) and insists on fighting Beerus in base (Just like he insisted on fighting Super Boo in base for a while).

Piccolo is a bit more credible, but the way he instantly goes "Oh nvm." when Gotenks get tanked tips me off. He gets a bit hopeful seeing SSJ Gotenks barely hold his own against Boo as well. His thought process in other chapters is also very weird: He forgot how Rosat worked and thought Dende was dead, he's not thinking clearly.

SSJ should be taken seriously because the characters aren't being written as buffoons for us to laugh at. SSJ Gotenks Pre is genuine and Post he's obviously stronger. In a more serious scene Piccolo even says "Not even Gotenks there could beat you" when he blows up the Rosat door. That's as straightforward as it gets for SSJ Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Super Boo >> SSJ Gotenks Post. It's even possible Boo was at full power all along.

Buu does a tremendous power up. I think Super Buu initial power is very close to Ssj Gotenks Post.

"Not even Gotenks there could beat you" when he blows up the Rosat door. That's as straightforward as it gets for SSJ Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku.

Nice, never considered that line being interpreted like that.


Ok, I think I'll have to agree with you here. This may be the best way to go. I'll try it out.