No guide no bullshit list

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Now that I'm free of the guidebook chains, I think it's time to remake my whole list. Saiyan and Namek Sagas don't really matter since the main stuff is pretty much stated so I'll start with Freeza, but I might come back to fill in those gaps later.

Battle against Freeza

Kuririn: 250,000

Gohan: 300,000
~ Enraged: 900,000
~ Zenkai: 1,000,000
~ Enraged Masenko: 2,250,000

Piccolo (Weighted): 270,000
~ Merged with Nail: 1,350,000
~ Full power: 1,687,500

Vegeta: 480,000
~ Zenkai: 4,800,000
~ Planet Buster: 6,400,000 (1.33x amp following GG amp)

Goku: 8,000,000
~ Full power: 10,000,000
~ Kaio-Ken x10: 100,000,000
~ Kaio-Ken x20: 200,000,000
~ Genki-Dama: 300,000,000
~ SSJ: 500,000,000
~ Kamehameha: 1,250,000,000

Freeza: 530,000
~ Transformed: 1,060,000
2nd form
~ Initial: 1,325,000
~ Full power: 1,590,000
3rd form
~ Full power: 2,500,000
True form
~ Initial: 5,300,000
~ Speed up: 6,000,000
~ Serious: 8,000,000 (Kicking Vegeta’s blast and warming up vs Goku)
~ No hands: 11,250,000
~ 50%: 225,000,000
~ 70%: 315,000,000
~ 100%: 450,000,000
~ Nova Strike: 1,250,000,000
~ Fatigued: 400,000,000 and falling

The Future

Future Piccolo: 13,500,000

Future Vegeta: 10,000,000
~ SSJ: 500,000,000

Future Gohan: 12,000,000
~ SSJ: 600,000,000
~ Base, post training: 15,000,000
~ SSJ: 750,000,000

Android 17 (<50%): 675,000,000 (I think it's alright to have 17 around the 1/3rd mark. Saying "I'm using 1/3rd is nerdy.)
~ 100%: 2,100,000,000

Android 18: 2,000,000,000 (= SSJ Vegeta. Is this too low? She doesn't think much of SSJ Trunks)

Another Super Saiyan

Vegeta: 7,200,000
Piccolo: 6,750,000

Gohan: 1,000,000

Kuririn: 250,000
Tenshinhan: 200,000
Yamcha: 100,000
Chaozu: 20,000

Mecha Freeza: 270,000,000
~ 100%: 540,000,000

King Cold: 300,000,000

Future Trunks: 16,000,000
~ SSJ: 800,000,000

Goku: 20,000,000
~ SSJ: 1,000,000,000

The Artificial Humans

Goku: 38,400,000
~ SSJ: 1,920,000,000
~ Sick: 1,440,000,000
~ Heart attack: 960,000,000 and falling

Piccolo (Weighted): 32,000,000
~ Full power: 1,600,000,000

Gohan: 25,000,000
Kuririn: 20,000,000
Tenshinhan: 15,000,000
Yamcha: 10,000,000
Chaozu: 300,000

Vegeta: 40,000,000
~ SSJ: 2,000,000,000
~ Big Bang Attack: 3,000,000,000
~ Fatigued: 1,000,000,000 (From both absorption and BBA)

Android 19: 960,000,000
~ Kamehameha absorbed: 1,200,000,000
(Doesn't gain power from Vegeta bc was burning energy to hold him, and might actually be weaker from the beatdown. I don't think these levels are worth listing though, just now that Vegeta >>> 19)

Android 20: 1,080,000,000
~ Post absorptions: 1,350,000,000

Android 18 (Toying): 2,000,000,000
~ Full power: 3,000,000,000

Android 17: 3,150,000,000

Cell

Piccolo (Weighted): 2,880,000,000
~ Full power: 3,200,000,000
~ Light Grenade: 4,800,000,000

Android 16: 9,600,000,000

Vegeta: 400,000,000
~ SSJ: 20,000,000,000
~ 2nd Grade: 40,000,000,000
~ Final Flash: 120,000,000,000

Future Trunks: 384,000,000
~ SSJ: 19,200,000,000
~ 2nd Grade: 38,400,000,000
~ 3rd Grade: 192,000,000,000

Cell: 2,400,000,000
~ Post absorptions: 9,600,000,000
2nd form
~ Initial: 19,200,000,000
~ Full power: 24,000,000,000
Perfect form
~ Initial: 36,000,000,000
~ Serious: 100,000,000,000
~ Buffed up: 200,000,000,000

Goku (Rosat): 48,000,000
~ SSJ: 2,400,000,000
~ 2nd Grade: 4,800,000,000
~ 3rd Grade: 24,000,000,000
Post Rosat
~ SSJ (50%): 450,000,000,000

Cell Games

Mr. Satan: 6.66

Piccolo: 6,400,000,000

Trunks: 12,000,000,000
~ SSJ: 600,000,000,000

Vegeta: 12,500,000,000
~ SSJ: 625,000,000,000

Goku: 18,000,000,000
~ SSJ: 900,000,000,000
~ Kamehameha: 3 Trillion
~ Fatigued: 4,500,000,000

Gohan: 24,000,000,000
~ SSJ: 1.2 Trillion
~ Enraged: 1.35 Trillion
~ SSJ2: 5.4 Trillion
~ Uncharged Kamehameha: 13.5 Trillion
~ Depressed: 4.8 Trillion (After Goku died)
~ Injured: 2.5 Trillion
~ Kamehameha: 8.25 Trillion
~ Father-Son Kamehameha: 18 Trillion

Cell: 1 Trillion
~ Vs Gohan: 1.25 Trillion
~ Full power: 3 Trillion
~ Kamehameha: 10 Trillion
~ Weakened: 1.8 Trillion
~ Giant: 4.5 Trillion
~ Zenkai: 5 Trillion (Became strongest in existence as Gohan lost his rage)
~ Solar Kamehameha: 16.5 Trillion

Boo Saga

Gohan: 20,000,000,000
~ SSJ: 1 Trillion
~ SSJ2: 4 Trillion

Vegeta: 24,000,000,000
~ SSJ: 1.2 Trillion
~ SSJ2: 4.8 Trillion

Goku: 30,000,000,000
~ SSJ: 1.5 Trillion
~ SSJ2 (Burst): 5 Trillion

Goten: 2,880,000,000
~ SSJ: 144,000,000,000

Trunks: 3,000,000,000
~ SSJ: 150,000,000,000

Kuririn: 20,000,000
Android 18: 3,000,000,000
Piccolo: 6,400,000,000

Mr. Satan: 6.6

Videl: 6.7
~ Post training: 8.5

Kibito: 1,000,000,000
Shin: 10,000,000,000

Spopovich: 8
Yamu: 10

Babidi: 1

Pui Pui: 14,000,000,000
Yakon: 28,000,000,000
Dabra: 1.05 Trillion

Vegeta (Potential unlocked): 30,000,000,000
~ SSJ: 1.5 Trillion
~ SSJ2: 6 Trillion

SSJ2 Goku (Full power): 6 Trillion

Majin Boo: 4 Trillion
~ Powered up: 8 Trillion
~ Further powered up: 12 Trillion
~ Full power: 24 Trillion

SSJ3 Goku (Holding back): 25 Trillion

Gotenks: 720,000,000,000
~ SSJ: 36 Trillion

Gohan (Post Z Sword training): 45,000,000,000
Old Kaioshin: 100,000,000

Good Boo: 8 Trillion
Evil Boo: 16 Trillion

Mightiest Warrior

Goten/Trunks (Post Rosat): 3,200,000,000 each
~ SSJ: 160,000,000,000 each

Gotenks: 1.2 Trillion
~ SSJ: 60 Trillion
~ Kamikaze Ghosts: 300 Trillion
~ SSJ2: 240 Trillion
~ SSJ3: 1.2 Quadrillion

Ultimate Gohan: 1.8 Quadrillion

Tenshinhan: 15,000,000
Chaozu: 300,000

Kibitoshin: 1 Trillion

Vegetto: 150 Trillion
~ SSJ: 7.5 Quadrillion

Super Boo: 120 Trillion
~ Full power: 1.2 Quadrillion
~ Gotenks and Piccolo absorbed: 2.4 Quadrillion+
~ Gohan, Piccolo and boys absorbed: 3 Quadrillion+

Buff Boo: 1.5 Quadrillion

The Final Battle

Goku: 30,000,000,000
~ SSJ: 1.5 Trillion
~ SSJ2: 6 Trillion
~ SSJ3: 30 Trillion
~ Genki-Dama: 25 Trillion
~ Chou Genki-Dama: 25 Quadrillion

Vegeta: 30,000,000,000
~ SSJ: 1.5 Trillion
~ SSJ2: 6 Trillion

Mr. Boo: 8 Trillion
Mr. Satan: 6.6

Kid Boo: 30 Trillion
~ Toying with Vegeta and Boo: 10 Trillion

 

[Fantastische Hure]

In my opinion Yamcha is < Saiyan-Saga Vegeta & Kuririn & Ten-Shin-Han are < 1st-Form Freeza.

 

[NormalSSJGoku]

I'm too low

 

[Fantastische Hure]

I'm too low

That you are, boi...that you are.

 

[Kyo]

Where is Vegeta's broken arm level

 

[FeatsofPower]

~ Planet Buster: 6,400,000 (1.33x amp following GG amp)

~ True form: 5,300,000
~ Serious: 8,000,000
~ No hands: 11,250,000

Are you saying Freeza didn't go all out to deflect the Final Burst Cannon? What level is his "increased speed" level?

I do like the 1.33x boost for FBC, we all fall victim to making his amp higher than everything else without evidence.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Goku (Rosat): 76,800,000 (Got somewhat stronger from meditating)

He wasn't meditating the whole time, he was training with Gohan, which is what helped Gohan increase his power so fast. Goku no doubt increased his power but it shouldn't be a tremendous amount.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

In my opinion Yamcha is < Saiyan-Saga Vegeta & Kuririn & Ten-Shin-Han are < 1st-Form Freeza.

That’s possible, I used to have them all between Ginyu and 1st form Freeza. But everybody is just so high I thought I’d give the humans a chance.

Where is Vegeta's broken arm level

Which one of them

Spoiler

Are you saying Freeza didn't go all out to deflect the Final Burst Cannon? What level is his "increased speed" level?

I do like the 1.33x boost for FBC, we all fall victim to making his amp higher than everything else without evidence.

It makes him get somewhat serious. The blast is semi-respectable, but I doubt it’s anywhere near Goku’s own power.

Freeza’s “increased speed” is also 8 million, but his power is 5.3 until he matches he speed. Mind you, it’s a speed increase.

He wasn't meditating the whole time, he was training with Gohan, which is what helped Gohan increase his power so fast. Goku no doubt increased his power but it shouldn't be a tremendous amount.

Maybe. He just seems to be coaching Gohan, and Gohan is seen training alone when Goku notes his gains. 2x is a fair increase right? The full year he got like 1,000x stronger, 2x is a serious day’s gain in average.

 

[FeatsofPower]

It makes him get somewhat serious.

Freeza used full power to combat the blast no doubt. Look at his reaction, look at his anger, look at the strain. He's 100% using his full power, no reason to suspect anything else other than that.

Freeza’s “increased speed” is also 8 million, but his power is 5.3 until he matches he speed. Mind you, it’s a speed increase.

Vegeta states when his power increases, so does his speed, so no reason to assume it doesn't work the other way.

Also, it would be weird for them to assume that Freeza's power matching would be enough to get it done, do they really think that Freeza's power and speed is that imbalanced?

Despite seeing a greatly superior Freeza, they are still surprised Freeza can kick it back.

Freeza (Kicking it Back) > Vegeta's Blast > Freeza Increased Speed > Freeza Initial

Maybe. He just seems to be coaching Gohan

The best way to coach Gohan is to train with him and spar hard.

and Gohan is seen training alone when Goku notes his gains

It's a snap shot in time. They have been in there for weeks if not a few months, this snap shot doesn't explain what they've been doing the entirety of the time. If Goku was always meditating, Gohan wouldn't need to point it out. Gohan points it out as if it's something new, which implies Goku's been training the whole time.

2x is a fair increase right? The full year he got like 1,000x stronger, 2x is a serious day’s gain in average.

Well, I think he should definitely still be weaker than Piccolo by a good margin. I got Goku going from 150-200 and Piccolo at 250. I think so long as you try to keep it limited, it should be ok.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Freeza used full power to combat the blast no doubt. Look at his reaction, look at his anger, look at the strain. He's 100% using his full power, no reason to suspect anything else other than that.

Nah, he just looks like he's putting some mild effort. Closest example I can think of is Vegeta screaming to deflect Zarbon's blast in their first fight, or maybe Vegeta straining to hold Dodoria. The rest of the gang treat this as an absolute domination feat, it can't be that close.

Vegeta states when his power increases, so does his speed, so no reason to assume it doesn't work the other way.

Also, it would be weird for them to assume that Freeza's power matching would be enough to get it done, do they really think that Freeza's power and speed is that imbalanced?

Despite seeing a greatly superior Freeza, they are still surprised Freeza can kick it back.

Freeza (Kicking it Back) > Vegeta's Blast > Freeza Increased Speed > Freeza Initial

But we all know this isn't always the case. Freeza specifically says he's raising his speed because he's dodging Vegeta. He doesn't need power to run circles around him.

That's not how it works though. They're talking about how Vegeta is no match for Freeza. This is Toriyama showing us their exposition on the fight overall (Since we don't see them when Freeza blitzes Vegeta), not just on the kick. And as you said on the other thread - everyone always tries their best shot and get surprised if it doesn't work. It's a natural part of fighting and storytelling.

If Goku was always meditating, Gohan wouldn't need to point it out. Gohan points it out as if it's something new, which implies Goku's been training the whole time.

It's something new to us, the audience. Gohan says he's been there for a long time, and Trunks said Vegeta took 2 months to find out how to surpass SSJ.

Well, I think he should definitely still be weaker than Piccolo by a good margin. I got Goku going from 150-200 and Piccolo at 250. I think so long as you try to keep it limited, it should be ok.

Well, I can limit it a bit. If Goku just gets 1.5x stronger (192 to 288, matching Weighted Piccolo) then he already surpasses Cell. Can Goku match Weighted Piccolo? He's still below the Androids.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Closest example I can think of is Vegeta screaming to deflect Zarbon's blast in their first fight, or maybe Vegeta straining to hold Dodoria.

Yeah, these would be two examples of people going all out, brother.

 

[FeatsofPower]

But we all know this isn't always the case. Freeza specifically says he's raising his speed because he's dodging Vegeta. He doesn't need power to run circles around him.

It doesn't work that way though. "Cui, when I raise my power, doesn't it raise my speed?"

They are tied together.

That's not how it works though. They're talking about how Vegeta is no match for Freeza. This is Toriyama showing us their exposition on the fight overall (Since we don't see them when Freeza blitzes Vegeta), not just on the kick. And as you said on the other thread - everyone always tries their best shot and get surprised if it doesn't work. It's a natural part of fighting and storytelling.

We are talking pre-kick right now.

It's something new to us, the audience. Gohan says he's been there for a long time, and Trunks said Vegeta took 2 months to find out how to surpass SSJ.

Yeah, he hasn't been there for two months meditating though.

Well, I can limit it a bit. If Goku just gets 1.5x stronger (192 to 288, matching Weighted Piccolo) then he already surpasses Cell. Can Goku match Weighted Piccolo? He's still below the Androids.

I'd advise Goku to be significantly below Piccolo.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Yeah, these would be two examples of people going all out, brother.

So Vegeta needs to go all out to dominate Dodoria, who's 83% of his power. Just like Freeza had to go "all out" to counter Vegeta's blast that's 80% of his power.

1.25x is already enough for a stomp, but it's gonna take effort to make a proper stomp. Agreed?

It doesn't work that way though. "Cui, when I raise my power, doesn't it raise my speed?"

They are tied together.

Is this a power up?

Spoiler

Yeah, he hasn't been there for two months meditating though.

Well anime filler has a lot of Goku and Gohan training, including pre-SSJ unlock.

 

[FeatsofPower]

So Vegeta needs to go all out to dominate Dodoria, who's 83% of his power. Just like Freeza had to go "all out" to counter Vegeta's blast that's 80% of his power.

To control Dodoria in that position yes. Vegeta is doing something to Dodoria that can't be done to someone of equal power level.

These are two completely different feats. Kicking back a blast isn't as impressive as what Vegeta's doing to Dodoria.

1.25x is already enough for a stomp, but it's gonna take effort to make a proper stomp. Agreed?

Kkx3 Goku used lots of effort vs Vegeta, but Reecome, not so much, but when he really damaged Vegeta, he did use some effort at least.

Well anime filler has a lot of Goku and Gohan training, including pre-SSJ unlock.

Remember, Gohan can't be properly trained without Goku training with him. Gohan catching up will allow the real process to begin, but Goku could have gained for sure a bit at least.



What Reecome is doing is a speed up. It depends on whats going on here.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

If Speed up Freeza is indeed a separate level, where would you have him? 6,000,000? He just throws one afterimage on Vegeta, but it's enough for Vegeta to go suicidal.

 

[FeatsofPower]

If Speed up Freeza is indeed a separate level, where would you have him? 6,000,000? He just throws one afterimage on Vegeta, but it's enough for Vegeta to go suicidal.

He has to be a separate level. He himself says he only increased his speed a little. So it wasn't anything major to him. Whereas what he showcases later required his full effort.

Initial Freeza (Very Low Effort)
Increased Speed (A little bit more effort)
Vs Blast (Full Effort)

The difference between Full Effort and a little bit of effort is bigger than a little bit effort versus no effort.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Full speed Freeza added. Might raise Vegeta’s blast to 7,200,000.

I know I just convinced you to lower the blast amps @FeatsofPower but that was just me trying to make SSJ2 a 2x multiplier. Gingertown Cell is still messed up, but it’s a one off inconsistency. Vegeta’s amp should be far behind though.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Full speed Freeza added. Might raise Vegeta’s blast to 7,200,000.

I know I just convinced you to lower the blast amps @FeatsofPower but that was just me trying to make SSJ2 a 2x multiplier. Gingertown Cell is still messed up, but it’s a one off inconsistency. Vegeta’s amp should be far behind though.

It was a good argument. Vegeta having a 1.33x amp on Earth and Namek seems good.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Even if I don't agree with how big the numbers are, I agree with most of the gaps presented.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Tbh I highballed a couple of these gaps so the numbers would look pretty. 375mil is probably better for Goku, but 500/450 is neat.