Pamput vs 21st Budokai Goku

[Pakl]

Who wins?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I wouldn't say the feat of Pamputto breaking a wall easier than Goku did is a valid comparison, given Yamcha did even more impressive feats in his first fight with Goku by flinging him through multiple pillars, not to mention the energy necessary for Goku's leap surpassing Namu's would be far above Wall level. I think Giran's reaction is less to do with just breaking the wall and more to do with having the resilience to do so and be ready to continue the fight immediately after breaking free of the Gurguru Gum.

Nevertheless, Roshi did treat Pamputto as a good benchmark of how far into superhuman power Goku and Kuririn were. though it's hard to say how much that means when Roshi even described Kuririn's initial self as coming close to peak non-superhuman ability. At best, Pamputto is around the level of the 21st TB top tiers, in which case Goku would still win due to greater variety in techniques and unpredictability.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

Pamput said his feat is 'a little of what he's about', while Goku needed his tail back to break a wall. Pamput wins.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Pamput said his feat is 'a little of what he's about', while Goku needed his tail back to break a wall. Pamput wins.

Except Goku didn't need his tail specifically to perform such a feat, as evident from Goku and those weaker than his 21st TB self performing far more impressive feats than breaking a wall.

Even if arguing those prior feats were retconned, Goku performed the task with ease and there isn't much evidence of the tail offering a boost in power, rather helping with his mobility.

 

[Emmeth]

There's no reason for any of the top tier 22nd TB contestants to be weaker than any of the 21st TB contestants. That's not the way scaling works. Pamput beats the entire tournament.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

There's no reason for any of the top tier 22nd TB contestants to be weaker than any of the 21st TB contestants. That's not the way scaling works. Pamput beats the entire tournament.

Chapter: 122, P2.3-6
Announcer: “Contestant Panput has won two other world martial arts championships outside of the Tenkaichi Budoukai. He’s aiming to win the championship here and obtain complete world domination in both name and reality!”
Kuririn: “So h-he’s that amazing a guy…!”
Kame-sennin: “I see. I thought I had heard his name somewhere before. So he’s the rumored super gifted grappler.”
Tenshinhan: “He’s so naïve…this tournament is on a different level than other matches…”

 

[GSM123]

[mention]Captain Cadaver[/mention] Goku couldn’t break free from the Guru Guru Gun until his tail grew back, though.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

@Captain Cadaver Goku couldn’t break free from the Guru Guru Gun until his tail grew back, though.

That's actually pretty debatable. Giran gave him no opportunity to break free prior to his tail growing back, after all.

 

[Keedounan]

I'd say Goku wins for reasons already stated by CC. Pamput wasn't particularly impressive.

 

[Pakl]

@Captain Cadaver Goku couldn’t break free from the Guru Guru Gun until his tail grew back, though.

That's actually pretty debatable. Giran gave him no opportunity to break free prior to his tail growing back, after all.

But nothing says he could before his tail grew back so context should not be ignored here.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

Even if arguing those prior feats were retconned, Goku performed the task with ease and there isn't much evidence of the tail offering a boost in power, rather helping with his mobility.

He and Krillin seemed equal in power and speed after their training, before Goku got his tail back.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

He and Krillin seemed equal in power and speed after their training, before Goku got his tail back.

They weren't. Kuririn even admitted he wasn't quite as strong as Goku and we never saw how they compared in speed. The only indicator for the latter was Goku believing Kuririn should be able to react to Jackie Chun's attacks if he concentrated, and being able to react to them isn't the same as being able to completely match them as Goku did.

But nothing says he could before his tail grew back so context should not be ignored here.

Ah, the Flying Spaghetti Monster fallacy.

Goku at no point said something along the lines of "I can't break through this" so to say he couldn't without proof is pure assumption. Ignoring context would be to throw away that Goku had no opportunity to attempt to break free.
There are also no instances in the franchise further supporting the idea that a Saiyan's strength increases with their tail regrown. The only major instance we can use from comparison is Goku regrowing his tail in GT, in which he was confirmed to have not become stronger in the slightest.

The only instance supporting the idea that the tail can affect power is with Vegeta weakening enough for Gohan to put up a fight against him, but to say his previous fatigue wasn't enough for this would be an assumption and the shock to the body that comes from losing what's essentially another limb isn't exactly light.

 

[Pakl]

He and Krillin seemed equal in power and speed after their training, before Goku got his tail back.

They weren't. Kuririn even admitted he wasn't quite as strong as Goku and we never saw how they compared in speed. The only indicator for the latter was Goku believing Kuririn should be able to react to Jackie Chun's attacks if he concentrated, and being able to react to them isn't the same as being able to completely match them as Goku did.

But nothing says he could before his tail grew back so context should not be ignored here.

Ah, the Flying Spaghetti Monster fallacy.

Goku at no point said something along the lines of "I can't break through this" so to say he couldn't without proof is pure assumption. Ignoring context would be to throw away that Goku had no opportunity to attempt to break free.
There are also no instances in the franchise further supporting the idea that a Saiyan's strength increases with their tail regrown. The only major instance we can use from comparison is Goku regrowing his tail in GT, in which he was confirmed to have not become stronger in the slightest.

The only instance supporting the idea that the tail can affect power is with Vegeta weakening enough for Gohan to put up a fight against him, but to say his previous fatigue wasn't enough for this would be an assumption and the shock to the body that comes from losing what's essentially another limb isn't exactly light.

What does that have to do with the noobish flying spaghetti monster theory?

 

[Emmeth]

There's no reason for any of the top tier 22nd TB contestants to be weaker than any of the 21st TB contestants. That's not the way scaling works. Pamput beats the entire tournament.

Chapter: 122, P2.3-6
Announcer: “Contestant Panput has won two other world martial arts championships outside of the Tenkaichi Budoukai. He’s aiming to win the championship here and obtain complete world domination in both name and reality!”
Kuririn: “So h-he’s that amazing a guy…!”
Kame-sennin: “I see. I thought I had heard his name somewhere before. So he’s the rumored super gifted grappler.”
Tenshinhan: “He’s so naïve…this tournament is on a different level than other matches…”

What are you trying to argue?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

What does that have to do with the noobish flying spaghetti monster theory?

The act of saying "there's nothing saying it isn't" when you lack the sufficient evidence to support it, as you are doing, is the definition of the "noobish" flying spaghetti monster fallacy.

What are you trying to argue?

Ten makes it pretty clear that Pamputto is out of his league competing in the Tenkaichi Budokai. Roshi also makes a similar statement in his somewhat mocking reaction to Man-Wolf's boast, a boast of which says little in his prowess compared to any of the 21st TB top 8.

Chapter: 119, P3.5-6
Context: Man-Wolf is angry with Jackie for blowing up the moon. Jackie is easily leading the match, however.
Man-Wolf: “Y-you--…!!”
Jackie Chun: “Why don’t you quit before you get hurt? I feel bad for you, but our skill levels are just too different.”
Man-Wolf: “Wh-what--!! Don’t patronize me!! I’ve got a 30-dan in kenpo!!”
Jackie Chun: “Do tell.”

Saying that Pamputto should be stronger than the 21st TB contestants purely by virtue of being one of the 22nd TB's top 8 without sufficient feats or statements to support it is a weak argument, especially when the competition of the 22nd TB beyond the main cast isn't suggested to be a step-up. The only exception is Chappa, who was unfortunate enough to get pitted against Goku in the preliminaries.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

They weren't. Kuririn even admitted he wasn't quite as strong as Goku and we never saw how they compared in speed. The only indicator for the latter was Goku believing Kuririn should be able to react to Jackie Chun's attacks if he concentrated, and being able to react to them isn't the same as being able to completely match them as Goku did.

Krillin was running almost as fast as Goku right after their training.

 

[Pakl]

What does that have to do with the noobish flying spaghetti monster theory?

The act of saying "there's nothing saying it isn't" when you lack the sufficient evidence to support it, as you are doing, is the definition of the "noobish" flying spaghetti monster fallacy.

What are you trying to argue?

Ten makes it pretty clear that Pamputto is out of his league competing in the Tenkaichi Budokai. Roshi also makes a similar statement in his somewhat mocking reaction to Man-Wolf's boast, a boast of which says little in his prowess compared to any of the 21st TB top 8.

Chapter: 119, P3.5-6
Context: Man-Wolf is angry with Jackie for blowing up the moon. Jackie is easily leading the match, however.
Man-Wolf: “Y-you--…!!”
Jackie Chun: “Why don’t you quit before you get hurt? I feel bad for you, but our skill levels are just too different.”
Man-Wolf: “Wh-what--!! Don’t patronize me!! I’ve got a 30-dan in kenpo!!”
Jackie Chun: “Do tell.”

Saying that Pamputto should be stronger than the 21st TB contestants purely by virtue of being one of the 22nd TB's top 8 without sufficient feats or statements to support it is a weak argument, especially when the competition of the 22nd TB beyond the main cast isn't suggested to be a step-up. The only exception is Chappa, who was unfortunate enough to get pitted against Goku in the preliminaries.

I think you are falling to your trap. If he did not do it before so there is no evidence he could. The burden of proof is on you

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I think you are falling to your trap. If he did not do it before so there is no evidence he could. The burden of proof is on you

There was absolutely no opening in which he could've done so, thereby making an argument that he could not when we never even get such a scenario meaningless. There's no point in arguing about something one way or the other which in the context of the story was impossible to happen.

As I've already said, at no other point in the franchise is regrowing a tail implied to raise strength and such is even contradicted in secondary works such as GT, so again, the burden of proof to refute this with the evidence in the series is on you.

Krillin was running almost as fast as Goku right after their training.

Running/travel speed =/= Combat speed

 

[DBZAOTA482]

I think Goku has this one in the bag. Pamput is someone who is extraordinary to most people but nothing to an actual superhuman and Goku was already implied to have surpassed the human limits by the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai.