Part 1 battle powers

[ahill1]

This will be a list not following the given scouter number from BoZ due to limited spacing that doesn't align with the earlier statements. I could write the "many times stronger" lines as hyperboles, but I decide not to, except with old Piccolo stating Tambourine is many times stronger than Cymbal, which, unless you have Cymbal very weak, it's hard to get around.


Searching the DBs


Bulma : 4

Yamcha : 9
Goku : 10
-- Oozaru : 100

Gyu-Maoh : 17

Training with Kame-Sennin

Goku : 10
Kuririn : 8
Kame-Sennin : 30

21st Budokai

Orin Temple Bullies : 10

Yamcha : 14

Giran : 17

Kuririn : 20

Goku (without tail) : 22.5
--- tail back : 30
Namu : 28

Kame-Sennin: 30

Goku (tired) : 23
--- Oozaru : 230

Kame-Sennin buff FP KMHMH : 275


Red Ribbon saga


Colonel Silver : 15

General Metallic : 27

Son Goku (holding back) : 28.5
--- full power : 31
--- KMHMH : 34

Buyon (durability) : 37.5

Android #8 (mad) : 40

General White : 10



-----


Kuririn : 20
Pirate Robot : 26
General Blue : 27
Goku : 33

Bora : 28.5

Tao Pai Pai : 132

Son Goku (post Karin) : 145

Karin : 160



--------- Uranai Baba saga



Dracula Man : 10
Invisible Man : 12
Yamcha : 14
Kuririn : 20

Mummy : 33

Akkuman : 55

Goku (vs mummy) : 60
--- vs Son Gohan : 90

Son Gohan : 87



22nd Budokai :


Chappa : 87
Chaozu : 95
Yamcha : 98
--- KMHMH : 111
Kuririn : 100
--- untrained KMHMH : 106
Son Goku (vs Chappa) : 100

Tsuru-Sennin : 120

Tenshinhan (vs Yamcha, initially) : 100
--- more serious : 115
---- even more serious, vs Roshi' : 125
----- Full power : 175

Kame-Sennin (initially) : 115
--- more serious (@tenshinhan) : 125
---- FP [not shown] : 139

Goku (vs Kuririn) : 100
---- more serious (@kuririn) : 120
----- full match level : 145
------ battle level : 180


----- Piccolo saga


Yajirobe : 165

Cymbal : 103

Tambourine : 139

Goku : 180

Old Piccolo Daimao (initially) : 172
--- less than half : 360
---- hypothetical full power : 900

Young Piccolo Daimao : 1,750

Drum : 260
Tenshinhan : 180

Goku (post Choushinsui) : 1,800

Mr. Popo : 3,000
Kami-Sama : 4,800


--- 23rd Budokai


Chappa : 115

Chi-Chi : 200

Cyborg Tao : 1,050

Yamcha : 1,260
Kuririn : 1,400

Tenshinhan (@taopaipai) : 1,800
--- full power : 2,400

Goku (weighted) : 2,500
--- speed : 1,800
----- no weights : 3,600

Shen/Kami-Sama : 4,800

Piccolo Junior (initially @kuririn) : 1,400
--- more serious (@kuririn) : 1,750
---- @ Shen : 5,300
----- warming up @ Goku : 5,300
------- Full Power : 8,800



Goku (warming up, @ Piccolo) : 5,300
---- Full power : 9,000

 

[SSJ2]

You think Namu > Metallic? Could be but idk.

 

[ahill1]

I think so, since Goku wasn't going all out vs Metallic.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

IIRC Goku says twice that he’d go all out on Metallic.

Do you think Piccolo’s less than half statement could be a comparison to his younger self? Like, “this body isn’t even half as strong as it should be but I’m still the strongest”.

If there’s one gap that has every right to be overblown here, it’s Kami vs Goku. Bro it’s a fucking finger flick. I don’t see Vegeta doing that to Nappa. But Nappa to Raditz, sure.

 

[ahill1]

Goku stated he'd go all out right before Metallica's batteries ran out.

Goku was still overpowering Metallic while not going all out, and Metallic's resilience due to being an Android dragged it more, but still the fact Goku wondered more than once why he wasn't in the Tenkaichi Budokai, used a KMHMH and all implies he may be up there in Namu's level. Since Goku increased his power when fighting Blue, it's possible he had gotten a small increase after all the fighting in the 21st Budokai, which drained a lot of his forces too, just not a big power up at all, perhaps like Piccolo growing slightly after the battle with Raditz --- 322 to 329 --- but maybe a little bit more noticeably.

Metallic : 27
Namu : 28
Goku (holding back vs Metallic) : 29
Goku (all out) : 31.5

I think Piccolo was talking about his old powers there. He didn't mention something like "I'm not even using half of the power I could possibly have", he straight up stated it wasn't half of his powers. I think the statement would offer more leeway if Piccolo referred to how powerful he would be if young. I think it was framed like "I didn't even use half my power yet"... Seems more like to me a straight reference to what he himself would be capable there rather than projecting his full capabilities we're him young.

Goku is like 1,000 and Kami, 2,600. Idk. It's more than a 2x gap. May be enough to do that, I'd say. I don't like to necessarily place, like, a 5x or more gap there due to the finger flicking since it's not like we have a basis of how much superior one would need to be to finger flick the other.

It's weird that 23rd Budokai Yamcha wasn't as powerful as that Goku yet Kami didn't come close to finger flicking him or anything haha. He received his attack and then got a ring out win with a solid attacks to the gut. He also attacked Yamcha with a straight elbow before. Maybe Kami was fully serious when finger flicking Goku despite being calm lmao I dunno.

 

[SSJ2]

I think so, since Goku wasn't going all out vs Metallic.

Do you think he was all out against Namu?

 

[ahill1]

Do you think he was all out against Namu?

Yes, since Roshi stated he might even lose the battle after seeing Goku defeating Namu. He didn't use all his creativity that the Roshi fight warranted, like mimicking a monkey or using the KMHMH, but as far as h2h battle goes, I think he went all out. Roshi was even surprised when he thought he got an easy win when kicking Goku away before he saw Goku used his tail to fly. Right after that, Roshi already dished the KMHMH which stalemated Goku's iirc.

 

[SSJ2]

Yeah that's true. In Viz at least Roshi says that "suddenly" it occurred to him that he may lose after seeing Goku defeat Namu, so maybe it was only the very tail end of the fight that gave him the idea. Goku did jump much higher than Namu after all.

I'd also personally bump Goku up to 31 or so but that's just me.

 

[ahill1]

I checked the Japanese manga and it seems the "suddenly" was VIZ changing the dialogue a little. The original dialogue is more like:

"So strong... Could it be... That even I might lose? "

Seems more like Roshi in disbelief that there's a high chance that even he might lose due to Goku's strength.

You mean Goku against Roshi? Could be... But I think they were dead equals there. Maybe there's an impression that Goku was stronger but that imo comes more from Goku enjoying the fight as he always does and it being so fun to fight like that for the first time while Roshi was tense since he had his reputation and wanted to win at all costs to teach the lesson he intended for Goku not to get complacent. So I think Roshi being tense and Goku having fun came more from that, as well as him playing safe and using the sleeping hypnosis. Maybe Goku had a slight edge in stamina but I'm not sure. I think not counting Roshi's special lightning attack as not being part of his own power and a special technique, which would make Goku surrender and lose as he was about to say it before turning into Oozaru, is fair, but at the same time, it's also Roshi's power and technique, so I'd say it goes to his merit as well. Roshi was visibly more tired after the whole Oozaru due to the KMHMH and Goku capitalized that to get a ring out but Roshi managed his way outta that... And then it seems like their ultimate attack being the jumping kick was kinda what both had in reserve and nothing more. I think Kuririn saying Goku could have won if he weren't hungry and Goku saying that nah, even if he were full Jackie Chun still was a step above may be Goku being humble, but maybe an implicit voice of the author acknowledging that Goku got lucky with the Oozaru thing both for not saying he gives up and because (tho Goku didn't know, but maybe had an intuition of Roshi being unfavored in some way) Roshi used way more power with the KMHMH.

I dunno, I think it's a really dead even fight, with Goku having a slight stamina edge and maybe a more creative adaptation to things, while Roshi had a technique advantage and an overall higher experience like when exploring his body's length (maybe he tricked Goku into engaging in that type of attack since he knew he'd lose going h2h further). I'd say it'd all even up in making them dead equals power level wise. Since there were many other factors other than raw power there, I'd say those numbers represent their prowess in general accounting for these attributes each has an advantage.

Btw sorry it got too long lol I need to type less.....

 

[Power Level Guy]

Goku is like 1,000 and Kami, 2,600. Idk. It's more than a 2x gap.

Kami > Popo >= Great Ape Fist > Goku

Popo is over 10x Goku.

 

[ahill1]

I don't see that as the case. If Goku got a 10x power up with the "Oozaru fist", how come he never used it again?

 

[Power Level Guy]

I don't see that as the case. If Goku got a 10x power up with the "Oozaru fist", how come he never used it again?

He did, he used it against Mr. Popo and was able to use Oozaru Fist of free will. If he kept his tail, people like Piccolo and Raditz wouldn't have been a problem for him.

 

[ahill1]

What's it saying it was a 10x increase from the fist though? It's not because there was an Oozaru symbolic image that he's necessarily getting a 10x power up with the attack there...

 

[Power Level Guy]

What's it saying it was a 10x increase from the fist though? It's not because there was an Oozaru symbolic image that he's necessarily getting a 10x power up with the attack there...

The feats back up a 10x boost.

 

[ahill1]

It could be then that the Oozaru power quickly made him access what he was capable normally, without it being a 10x boost under normal conditions... Otherwise Goku could have ended the fight initially at any instant... And Kami could know about this potential for the Oozaru fist and not taken Goku's tail for it'd be a huge asset vs Piccolo Junior.

 

[Power Level Guy]

It could be then that the Oozaru power quickly made him access what he was capable normally, without it being a 10x boost under normal conditions... Otherwise Goku could have ended the fight initially at any instant... And Kami could know about this potential for the Oozaru fist and not taken Goku's tail for it'd be a huge asset vs Piccolo Junior.

He couldn’t do it at will against King Piccolo.

It’s a massive boost either way, if you went for 5x I’d be ok with it. But it’s way beyond Kamehameha.

Oozaru Fist wasn’t worth the risk of Oozaru Goku being an unstoppable monster than no one could hope to contain. Kami made the right move.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I think it could go either way. Goku definitely got some kind of shonen resolve boost, but I’m not sure if AT even knew what Oozaru was at that point.

 

[SSJ2]

I checked the Japanese manga and it seems the "suddenly" was VIZ changing the dialogue a little. The original dialogue is more like:

"So strong... Could it be... That even I might lose? "

Seems more like Roshi in disbelief that there's a high chance that even he might lose due to Goku's strength.

You mean Goku against Roshi? Could be... But I think they were dead equals there. Maybe there's an impression that Goku was stronger but that imo comes more from Goku enjoying the fight as he always does and it being so fun to fight like that for the first time while Roshi was tense since he had his reputation and wanted to win at all costs to teach the lesson he intended for Goku not to get complacent. So I think Roshi being tense and Goku having fun came more from that, as well as him playing safe and using the sleeping hypnosis. Maybe Goku had a slight edge in stamina but I'm not sure. I think not counting Roshi's special lightning attack as not being part of his own power and a special technique, which would make Goku surrender and lose as he was about to say it before turning into Oozaru, is fair, but at the same time, it's also Roshi's power and technique, so I'd say it goes to his merit as well. Roshi was visibly more tired after the whole Oozaru due to the KMHMH and Goku capitalized that to get a ring out but Roshi managed his way outta that... And then it seems like their ultimate attack being the jumping kick was kinda what both had in reserve and nothing more. I think Kuririn saying Goku could have won if he weren't hungry and Goku saying that nah, even if he were full Jackie Chun still was a step above may be Goku being humble, but maybe an implicit voice of the author acknowledging that Goku got lucky with the Oozaru thing both for not saying he gives up and because (tho Goku didn't know, but maybe had an intuition of Roshi being unfavored in some way) Roshi used way more power with the KMHMH.

I dunno, I think it's a really dead even fight, with Goku having a slight stamina edge and maybe a more creative adaptation to things, while Roshi had a technique advantage and an overall higher experience like when exploring his body's length (maybe he tricked Goku into engaging in that type of attack since he knew he'd lose going h2h further). I'd say it'd all even up in making them dead equals power level wise. Since there were many other factors other than raw power there, I'd say those numbers represent their prowess in general accounting for these attributes each has an advantage.

Btw sorry it got too long lol I need to type less.....

But Goku is literally said to have the upper hand several times and Roshi wasn't refuting it. He basically agreed with the tournament announcer when it was said that Goku was winning the fight.

 

[ahill1]

@Power Level Guy

Just reread those scenes and yeah it's funny how the Oozaru thing was illustrated there. Goku also had the Oozaru figure illustrated as soon as he awakened from the super sacred water with Karin saying he felt Goku's power there. So I like the association, but I don't think Goku necessarily got a 10x boost with the fist. He may have gotten one with the Super Sacred Water with Karin noticing he felt Goku's power with the Oozaru... Or maybe he still hadn't gotten the 10x increase and the Oozaru fist was him accessing that power. Btw, I'd be down to Goku getting a 10x boost after the super sacred water due to the Oozaru mountage and the Oozaru fist being more a symbolic way of him utilizing that power to its full effectiveness, not getting an on top 10x boost at all... He'd be able to defeat 23rd Budokai Tenshinhan based on this idea as well, which just doesn't seem right at all.

@SSJ2

I think that was likely because of Goku's advantage with his stamina... But Roshi covered that up with his skills advantage with the Bankoku Bikkuri Shō which would have made Goku give up weren't for the Oozaru.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Every time we see the Oozaru montage someone makes note of Goku’s increase in power.

It seems simple to me. When we see Oozaru he gets an Oozaru boost. The Oozaru boost wasn’t determined at this time yet, so it is what it is.

The feats and statements match up the only reason fans have issue is because of bloat.