Part 1 battle powers

[ahill1]

He could have gotten an Oozaru boost when having his power awakened... Or maybe, he could have gotten close to that, let's say, 7x... And the Oozaru fist was his way of achieving the full Oozaru latent potential he had. I just don't see the need to put Popo more than 10x above Goku there and assume Goku had a 10x boost which would make his post sacred water self way above Tenshinhan. Tenshinhan also saw that Oozaru fist. And the pros wouldn't outweigh the bad with Goku turning Oozaru, I'd say, because Kami could have just kept the moon gone, which didn't affect the Earth a lot. So keeping the moon gone and having Goku with a 10x asset boost vs Piccolo Junior would be incredibly stupid of him not to see it as a way to easily overcome a heavy, huge gap. So nah, at most I see the Oozaru fist pushing the already close to 10x post sacred water Goku to actually using the full Oozaru boost...

 

[Power Level Guy]

I just don't see the need to put Popo more than 10x above Goku there and assume Goku had a 10x boost which would make his post sacred water self way above Tenshinhan.

He should be though, that's what is indicated. Goku's true power, ie his Oozaru power has been brought out. Goku post sacred water is 10x his previous self, who is already probably way beyond Tien. He might have gotten a zenkai versus Tambourine, and most certainly got once after nearly dying to King Piccolo at least, don't you think?

And the pros wouldn't outweigh the bad with Goku turning Oozaru, I'd say, because Kami could have just kept the moon gone, which didn't affect the Earth a lot.

It's better to remove the tail then remove the moon.

So keeping the moon gone and having Goku with a 10x asset boost vs Piccolo Junior would be incredibly stupid of him not to see it as a way to easily overcome a heavy, huge gap.

The training is supposed to ensure Goku's superiority over Piccolo. It would be one thing if Goku never had a chance, but Goku with the right training has a chance and his tail makes him a threat to everyone. Even Piccolo wouldn't be able to stop him. Probably better to have a world with Piccolo ruling then one in which Oozaru Goku destroys the world.

So nah, at most I see the Oozaru fist pushing the already close to 10x post sacred water Goku to actually using the full Oozaru boost...

I think Goku has the full 10x boost post sacred water and then his Oozaru Fist increases his power 10x on top of that as suggested.

 

[SSJ2]

Popo was embarrassed by how weak Goku was to the point that he didn't even want Kami to meet him. I don't see why that can't be represented by a 10x difference.

 

[ahill1]

@Power Level Guy

What's the lack of a moon in comparison with assuring their chances over 10x in defeating Piccolo? It doesn't make any sense.

@SSJ2

I don't see why it needs to be bigger than a 50/100 difference, where is basically where I've Popo. I've it as a 55/100 gap there, same one SSJ2 Gohan had over Cell... Bigger than the one Goku had over the Ginyus when suppressed... That's a whole enough to make Goku look weak and make a fool out of him. The fist Oozaru being a 10x boost on top of the 10x Goku got post the Super Sacred Water seems needles bloat imo. It can easily be the Oozaru fist allowing Goku to actually access all of the Oozaru's boost. Maybe I could push Goku up a little, like:

Goku (pre water) : 180
-- post water : 1,400
-- Oozaru's fist : 1,800

Tenshinhan : 2,000

Popo : 2,500

Though I'd need to bump Piccolo too, young Piccolo. He'd be, like, 1,350... Then his gap over old Piccolo, would be 2.25x, which would make me want to have the same gap between Drum and Tambourine, which would place Drum too high in comparison to the power old King Piccolo used vs Goku and in comparison to Tenshinhan too, who could at least recover from an attack and get a shot in. I wouldn't like to see Drum vs Ten bigger than a 70/100.

 

[ahill1]

I think I can bump old King Piccolo up though.

Goku (post 22nd Budokai) : 180
Old King Piccolo (40%) : 300
--- theoretical FP : 750

Young King Piccolo : 1,360
Post Sacred Water Goku : 1,400
Oozaru fist : 1,800

Tenshinhan (23rd Budokai) : 2,000

Mr. Popo : 2,600

Tambourine : 139
Tenshinhan : 175
Drum : 250

Unweighted Goku (vs Ten) : 3,000

Kami-Sama/Shen : 4,000

Goku/Piccolo Junior : 10,000


I think I could go with that.

 

[SSJ2]

A 2x gap doesn't match up with how much Popo was disrespecting Goku. He said he was shocked that Karin even sent Goku. He also thought it would be a waste of time for Goku to train to defeat him, implying that he viewed their difference as insurmountable. If Goku was a mere 2x weaker than the person who was meant to test humans I can't see the disrespect being that blatant. Goku could make up for that gap with moderate training by DB's standards.

 

[Papasmurf]

Censorship of the lips is so gay lol

 

[ahill1]

A 2x gap doesn't match up with how much Popo was disrespecting Goku. He said he was shocked that Karin even sent Goku. He also thought it would be a waste of time for Goku to train to defeat him, implying that he viewed their difference as insurmountable. If Goku was a mere 2x weaker than the person who was meant to test humans I can't see the disrespect being that blatant. Goku could make up for that gap with moderate training by DB's standards.

View attachment 3439

I think Popo was kinda testing Goku's resolve when he called him that weak and years worth of catching up. When Kami-Sama fought Yamcha, he said he was impressed and that it wouldn't take Yamcha much time to surpass him.

Kami-sama as Shen, to Yamcha : No, no, no, you're quite good, actually. I've been watching closely and I'm very impressed! Unfortunately, I happen to be much more powerful. But if you keep training, you should catch up pretty quickly.

From VIZ at least, that's what Shen said.

And considering that when Goku kept his resolve after Popo having told him all that, and Kami answered with a "that's good to hear" or something like this, it's possible Popo exaggerated in his words so they could test Goku's motivations even in unnerving situations.

Besides, the word used by Piccolo Junior in the 23rd Budokai when describing the increase he had in comparison to the previous Piccolo, was 数倍, same word Nail used when assessing the boost Piccolo would have when fusing with him. DragonEmperor said that's a common word in Japanese that generally refers to 3 ~ 6x increase from previous power, not more than that... Which also matches with the EML giving Piccolo a 5x boost when merging with Nail, fitting the word Sūbai being generally within the 3~6x range and very uncommonly, almost never, 10x. So I'd say Popo can't be that stronger.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Popo was embarrassed by how weak Goku was to the point that he didn't even want Kami to meet him. I don't see why that can't be represented by a 10x difference.

Exactly. We have like tons of evidence that Goku and Oozaru Fist Goku are worlds apart. I think the issue is the correlation with the BoZ numbers.

 

[ahill1]

See my post above. This isn't even a list following BoZ, so I'd have no reason to nerf Popo.

 

[Animelover5487]

Yamcha's Sokidan was giving Shen some trouble so an over 10x gap between Goku and Popo definitely seems excessive.

 

[ahill1]

Censorship of the lips is so gay lol

Wow, had never noticed this censorship.

 

[Power Level Guy]

See my post above. This isn't even a list following BoZ, so I'd have no reason to nerf Popo.

Mr. Popo can literally eat a Kamehameha in the anime, but respects the Oozaru Fist.

Goku's Kamehameha probably can't finish King Piccolo, yet Oozaru Fist punches a hole through him despite his blocking.

These are major, major feats, man. Just something to think about. I took a long time to really absorb this, but I find it to be more likely then not.

 

[Father]

Still the best OGDB PL list in recent memory.

I’m pretty pleased with the revised
Kami/KP/Majunior PLs as well.

 

[ahill1]

Mr. Popo can literally eat a Kamehameha in the anime, but respects the Oozaru Fist.

Goku's Kamehameha probably can't finish King Piccolo, yet Oozaru Fist punches a hole through him despite his blocking.

These are major, major feats, man. Just something to think about. I took a long time to really absorb this, but I find it to be more likely then not.

But again, Piccolo's word stated in the way it did, as DE confirmed, it's established in JP to be commonly associated to a 3~6x boost. So Piccolo Junior > Piccolo Daimao (young) is likely within the 3~ 6x range, possibly 5x like the boost Piccolo got with Nail with the same word used.

Besides, eating KMHMH was in the anime, and the way Popo addressed Goku can easily be taken as testing Goku's motivations considering Shen stated Yamcha might to take too much time to surpass him. It was likely a way to test Goku's resolve under difficult situations, and upon seeing Goku wasn't shaken by Popo's words, Kami stated he's help to hear that...

As I mentioned too, the Oozaru fist was never established as an on top 10x boost over the existing one. Goku may have gotten a 10x one upon recovering from the water, but still not quite, and the Oozaru fist being him assessing that power effectively... Even more so with, again, Kami deciding to keep the moon, an irrelevant thing as it seemed, up again, rather than having a 10x boost asset vs Piccolo Junior, while he wasn't that confident of Goku's win, as he said he left most of his training to Popo.

Sorry P, I won't buy that one as it isn't much supported and there are heavy things going against that.

@BedroomBully thanks man. Much appreciated. Gotta give P credits for this list a lot, it was after debating him many times, seeing his old debates with SSJ2 when I wasn't even apart of forums and with COH too, and seeing old his old lists ignoring scouters, as well as Kyo's, that I thought about this one, which is a reflect of the many debates P, SSJ2, COH, Kyo and the old crew had on DB which helped me to have a better clarity on a lot of things, I've never thought this all alone in the least.

They shaped the entire part 1 scaling. I mostly absorbed from them haha

Captain Cadaver and Kenshi too.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

It was stated Piccolo was fatigued from firing two FP blasts in a row, that’s why he took Tien hostage and broke Goku’s limbs. Piccolo was weaker than Goku and Goku concentrated all his power in his fist. I’m sure a Kamehameha could’ve done the same damage if Goku had both hands.

 

[ahill1]

Yeah good point on Piccolo being rather weakened to the point Goku after the two blasts with the second taken head on still was more of a threat than Piccolo. Piccolo Junior also stated his father made a mistake of letting Goku with an arm... And then Goku used his head to accomplish a feat with a weakened Piccolo Kami couldn't haha. I don't think that's a huge boost reflective at all, just that in a last effort attack concentrating all their power upon an already weakened enemy is bound to work many times.

 

[Power Level Guy]

What is the purpose of using the Oozaru montage then?

 

[ahill1]

Goku could draw the full Oozaru's power when using the fist... Making it a total 10x gap over his previous self. It's not like 10x boost firstly and 10x boost later.

 

[SSJ2]

Gotta give P credits for this list a lot, it was after debating him many times, seeing his old debates with SSJ2 when I wasn't even apart of forums and with COH too, and seeing old his old lists ignoring scouters, as well as Kyo's, that I thought about this one, which is a reflect of the many debates P, SSJ2, COH, Kyo and the old crew had on DB which helped me to have a better clarity on a lot of things, I've never thought this all alone in the least.

They shaped the entire part 1 scaling. I mostly absorbed from them haha

Man, I wish that shindenforums was still available in archive form. It wasn’t around for all that long but I remember having many great part 1 discussions with P on there. I think that was all the way back in 2013. Time really flies.