Part 1 (not quite now) Dragon Ball battle powers

[ahill1]

Well, I'm giving it a try again, following the scouter numbers


Search for the Dragon Balls

Son Goku -- 10
Yamcha -- 9

Bulma -- 4
Oolong -- 3.5

Pilaf -- 3.6
Mai -- 5

Gyumaoh -- 14


Training with Kame-Sen'nin

Kuririn -- 7.5

Lunch (good) -- 4
Bad -- 6.6

Kame-Sen'nin -- 20


21st Tenkaichi Budokai

Orin Temple Bulliers -- 9
Yamcha -- 12
Bacterian -- 12.5
Giran -- 14
Kuririn -- 16

Namu --.18.5
Son Goku -- 20
Kame-Sen'nin -- 20


Red Ribbon Army

Colonel Silver -- 12

General White -- 12

Ninja Murasaki -- 15

General Metallic -- 18

Son Goku (holding back) -- 19.5
-- full power -- 21
-- KMHMH -- 26


---------

Bulma -- 4

Kuririn -- 16

Pirate Robot -- 17.5

General Blue -- 18

Son Goku -- 22

Kame Sen'nin -- 20

-----

Bora -- 18.75
Tao Pai Pai -- 30

Son Goku -- 22
-- post Karin's training -- 34

Tao Pai Pai's Dodonpa -- 33

Upa -- 3

Karin -- 38


Black with his combat machine -- 30


Uranai Baba


Dracula Man -- 10
Invisible Man -- 11
Yamcha -- 12
-- Rogafufuken -- 13.5

Kuririn -- 16

Mummy -- 22

Akkuman -- 26

Son Gohan -- 33
Son Goku -- 34

22nd Tenkaichi Budokai

Panput -- 22

Chappa-o -- 34

Chaozu -- 38

Yamcha -- 39

Kuririn -- 40

Tsuru-Sen'nin -- 45

Kame Sen'nin -- 52

Tenshinhan -- 58

Son Goku -- 60



Piccolo Daimao appears

Kuririn -- 40
Yamcha -- 39

Cymbal -- 37.5
Tambourine -- 50

Yajirobe -- 56

Son Goku -- 60

Old Piccolo Daimao (less than half power) -- 74
-- full power -- 150


Drum -- 74
Tenshinhan -- 58

Young Piccolo Daimao -- 200

Son Goku (Post Choshinsui) -- 205

Mr. Popo -- 300

Kami-Sama -- 400


23rd Tenkaichi Budokai


Chappa-o -- 45

Yajirobe -- 90

Chaozu -- 90

Chi-Chi -- 90

Cyborg Tao Pai Pai -- 140

Yamcha -- 160

Kuririn -- 180

Tenshinhan -- 225

Son Goku (with weights) -- 230
--no weights -- 300
-- vs Piccolo (warming up) -- 420
-- full power -- 680
-- Super KMHMH -- 910

Shen -- 375
Kami-Sama -- 400

Piccolo Junior (initially) -- 200
-- vs Shen -- 420
-- Full power -- 666
-- Super Shock wave -- 1000


Raditz's arrival

Normal earthling -- 5

Roshi -- 139

Yamcha -- 177
Kuririn -- 206
Tenshinhan -- 250

Yajirobe -- 142
Chaozu -- 145


Son Goku (weighted) -- 334
-- resring level -- 416
-- full power -- 765
-- KMHMH -- 924

Piccolo Junior (weighted) -- 322
-- resting level -- 408
-- full power -- 750
-- Makankosappo -- 1,330

Raditz -- 1,250

Son Gohan -- 1
-- mildly enraged -- 710
-- enraged -- 1,307


------

Chaozu -- 610
Yajirobe -- 970

Yamcha -- 1,400
Son Gohan -- 1,500
Kuririn -- 1,600
Tenshinhan -- 1,700

Piccolo -- 2,250

Nappa -- 4,000

Son Gohan Masenko and enraged -- 2,800

Nappa (fully focused on) -- 7,500

Son Goku -- 8,050
-- Kaioken -- 16,100
-- Kaioken x3 -- 24,150
-- Kaioken x4 + KMHMH -- 32,000
-- power rapidly falling -- 6,000
-- completely crushed -- 30
-- Genki-Dama (given to Kuririn) -- 35,000

Vegeta -- 18,000
-- beated up -- 16,000
-- post moon created -- 5,000
-- Oozaru -- 50,000
-- reverted to normal form -- 3,500
-- post GD -- 1,200
-- crushed -- 30

Son gohan enraged vs Vegeta -- 2,800


Namek's arc


Kuririn (weighted) -- 1,500
-- no weights -- 1,750
Son Gohan -- 1,750

Appule -- 2,000

Namekian Warriors -- 3,000

Kiwi -- 18,000

Dodoria -- 20,500
Zarbon -- 21,600

Vegeta -- 24,000

Monster Zarbon -- 29,000

Vegeta (post healing) -- 30,000

Recoome -- 40,000
Burta -- 40,000
Jheese -- 40,000

Nail -- 42,000

Son Goku (post gravity chamber, initially) -- 5,000
-- power use to tool the Ginyus -- 64,000

Captain Ginyu (initially) -- 64,000
-- full power -- 120,000

Freeza (1st form) -- 530,000

Ginyu in Goku's body -- 23,000

Kuririn -- 23,000
Son Gohan -- 25,000

Vegeta (healed up, initially) -- 45,000
-- power released vs Jheese -- 250,000


------ battle vs First form Freeza

Kuririn -- 150,000
Son Gohan -- 250,000
-- enraged -- 900,000
-- post Zenkai -- 500,000
Vegeta -- 480,000

Piccolo (post training with Kaio) -- 300,000

1st form Freeza -- 530,000

Freeza (2nd form, initially) -- 1,060,000
-- powered up -- 1,200,000
-- full power -- 1,400,000

Piccolo post nail fusion -- 1,250,000
-- no weights -- 1,500,000

3rd form Freeza -- 1,850,000

Gohan (enraged + chi attack) -- 1,800,000
-- tired after all out attack -- 400,000

Vegeta post final Zenkai -- 2,400,000

Freeza final form (initial) -- 2,350,000
-- post speed increase -- 2,800,000
-- no hands -- 3,250,000

Piccolo (post Gohan's and Kuririn's energy) -- 2,030,000

Son Goku (post super Zenkai, initially) -- 2,750,000
-- full base power (vs no hands Freeza) -- 3,000,000
-- Kaioken x10 -- 30,000,000
-- Kaioken x20 -- 60,000,000
-- Super Saiyajin -- 150,000,000

Freeza (50%) -- 70,000,000
-- 70% -- 98,000,000
-- 100% -- 140,000,000

---- Future Trunks arrives


Chaozu -- 40,000
Yamcha -- 90,000
Tenshinhan -- 120,000
Kuririn -- 200,000
Son Gohan -- 500,000

Piccolo -- 3,200,000
Vegeta -- 3,500,000

King Cold -- 90,000,000
Mecha Freeza (suppressed) -- 90,000,000
-- full power -- 160,000,000

Future Trunks -- 4,000,000
-- Super Saiyajin -- 200,000,000

Son Goku -- 4,400,000
-- Super Saiyajin -- 220,000,000


--- 3 years passes


Yamcha -- 360,000
Tenshinhan -- 500,000
Kuririn -- 800,000

Son Gohan -- 5,600,000

Android #19 -- 172,000,000
-- post KMHMH -- 215,000,000
-- post weakened ass base Goku -- 216,000,000

Android #20 -- 192,000,000
-- post Vegeta's blast -- 200,000,000
-- post supp. Piccolo's energy -- 230,000,000

Piccolo -- 275,000,000

Future Trunks -- 6,400,000
-- Super Saiyajin -- 320,000,000

Son Goku -- 7,000,000
-- Super Saiyajin sick (initially) -- 247,500,000
-- post KMHMH -- 189,200,000
-- crippled -- 1,000,000
-- Super Saiyajin (theoretical full power) -- 350,000,000

Vegeta -- 7,200,000
-- Super Saiyajin -- 360,000,000

Android #18 -- 480,000,000
Android #17 -- 533,000,000


--- Cell appears

Imperfect Cell (initially) -- 400,000,000

SSJ Vegeta -- 360,000,000

Piccolo w/kami (weights on) -- 480,000,000
-- full power -- 550,000,000

Android #17 -- 533,000,000

Android #16 -- 1,000,000,000

Imperfect Cell (post supper) -- 1,000,000,000

Piccolo weakened post beat up -- 412,500,000
Gekiretsu Kodan -- 825,000,000

Semi Perfect Cell -- 2,000,000,000
-- full power -- 2,400,000,000

Vegeta (post RoSaT) -- 48,000,000
-- SSJ -- 2,400,000,000
-- SSJg2 -- 3,400,000,000

Future Trunks -- 45,000,000
-- SSJ -- 2,250,000,000
-- SSJg2 -- 3,214,000,000

Perfect Cell (initially) -- 2,200,000,000
-- tooling Vegeta -- 6,800,000,000

SSJg3 Trunks -- 8,500,000,000

Son Goku Supä Saiya-jin Half Powa -- 12,000,000,000


--- Cell Games

Yamcha -- 360,000
Tenshinhan -- 500,000
Kuririn -- 800,000

Android #16 -- 1,000,000,000

Piccolo -- 12,500,000,000

Vegeta -- 288,000,000
-- SSJ -- 14,400,000,000

Future Trunks -- 278,000,000
-- SSJ -- 13,900,000,000

Cell Junior -- 15,000,000,000

FPSSJ Goku -- 24,000,000,000

Perfect Cell (vs Goku) -- 27,000,000,000

FPSSJ Gohan -- 28,800,000,000

Perfect Cell (all out speed l) -- 30,000,000,000

SSJ2 Gohan -- 78,000,000,000

Perfect Cell (full power) -- 43,000,000,000

Super Perfect Cell -- 70,000,000,000

 

[SSJ2]

Orin Temple Bulliers -- 9
Yamcha -- 12
Bacterian -- 12.5
Giran -- 14
Kuririn -- 16

Namu --.18.5
Son Goku -- 20
Kame-Sen'nin -- 20

This is crazy trying to rationalize the powers being this close. Krillin is probably about on par with tailless Goku give or take, and Goku was able to severely damage Giran with just one blow. That's no 1.15x gap.

 

[SSJ2]

Young Piccolo Daimao being 1.2x stronger than Old Daimao is laughable.

 

[SIAD]

Piccolo's Super Shock wave on TB23 has to be at least less than 329 considering that the Super Shock wave could only destroy one Island, while Piccolo (Weighted) with 329 destroyed the Moon very casually.

 

[ahill1]

This is crazy trying to rationalize the powers being this close. Krillin is probably about on par with tailless Goku give or take, and Goku was able to severely damage Giran with just one blow. That's no 1.15x gap.

That was one big punch to the gut. And it just momentarily stunned him. He was fine afterwards. Giran's tail seemed to have an effect on Goku too, judging by this latter's face when the tail hit his neck.

Piccolo Daimao got a 1.33x boost aftet recovering his youth, actually.

@SIAD -- I don't take destruction feats into consideration. They're generally misleading.

 

[SSJ2]

I don't think the punch being to the gut is the greatest indicator of the gap. Vegeta vs Zarbon is about a 1.15x gap imo, and Zarbon was able to somewhat keep up with him despite taking heavy blows to the head. Look at how Zarbon was able to react to Vegeta vs how Giran could react to Goku. After Giran/Goku's first clash, Goku immediately got the inside position on him and dealt a devastating blow. None of Vegeta's attacks were that devastating to Zarbon, and it took many blows of that level to finally wear down Zarbon.

1.33x, my bad. Regardless that still seems like a minuscule gap considering the hype his young form was given.

Spoiler

These don't give me the impression of such a small change in Piccolo's power. And while debatable, it seems implied that Piccolo was already stronger than his old self when he was initially restored to his youth by Shenlong. And he further powered up beyond that. I just can't see it being that small, minimalist or not.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

@Super Saiyan tbf tailess Goku is probably stronger than Kuririn still given their pre training scuffle over that rock. I can see the gap being closed by training together, but nothing implies that.

@ahill1 what do you make of Roshi's 139? You think he trained?

 

[SSJ2]

I dunno GSM, everything I see throughout the preliminaries points to both of them being of similar power. Krillin is portrayed as weaker due to lack of confidence but Goku was constantly reassuring him. They both underwent the same training and were shown jumping the exact same height by the end of it.

Spoiler

If there is a difference between them, it's definitely shown to be small at best.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

They both would appear equally strong beating up fodder, but the jumping feat sells it to me. What about this?:

Goku (Tail cut): 16
Kuririn: 15-16
Gilan: 13
Yamcha/Bacterian: 12

As for Piccolo Daimao, I got these numbers:

Goku: 84

Piccolo Daimao: 120
~ Unseen Full Power: 150
~ Youth Restored: 160
~ Full Power: 200

 

[SSJ2]

A little better than ahill's but I really don't see Giran being that strong. His best feat was giving Goku mild pain after tricking him into having no guard. Krillin looked down on Giran and knew he wasn't anywhere near being strong enough to take on Goku. Your gap doesn't necessarily contradict this, but I prefer it being larger.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

You think he could be Yamcha level with these gaps?

 

[SSJ2]

I've got him comfortably above Yamcha.

Goku (no tail): 60

Krillin: 59

Yamcha: 26
-Wolf Fang Fist: 27.5

Bacterian: 14

Giran: 40

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

These are ignoring scouters though

With those I'd have:

Goku (No tail): 80
Kuririn: 75
Yamcha: 25

Guilan: 60
Bacterian: 50

 

[SSJ2]

I'm aware, I'm just saying that's the gap I'd have. It would mean Yamcha would need to be decreased on that scale.

 

[ahill1]

I don't think the punch being to the gut is the greatest indicator of the gap. Vegeta vs Zarbon is about a 1.15x gap imo, and Zarbon was able to somewhat keep up with him despite taking heavy blows to the head. Look at how Zarbon was able to react to Vegeta vs how Giran could react to Goku. After Giran/Goku's first clash, Goku immediately got the inside position on him and dealt a devastating blow. None of Vegeta's attacks were that devastating to Zarbon, and it took many blows of that level to finally wear down Zarbon.

1.33x, my bad. Regardless that still seems like a minuscule gap considering the hype his young form was given.

Spoiler

View attachment 460View attachment 461

These don't give me the impression of such a small change in Piccolo's power. And while debatable, it seems implied that Piccolo was already stronger than his old self when he was initially restored to his youth by Shenlong. And he further powered up beyond that. I just can't see it being that small, minimalist or not.

True, but look at what a gut punch did to Tenshinhan when him and Goku were similar in power:

Spoiler

I could put tailess Goku at 17 (close to Kuririn) and that'd mean a 1.2x gap between him and Giran, same as Vegeta vs Dodoria. Couldn't you see Vegeta momentarily stunning Dodoria with a powerful well connected punch like that? Interestingly, Goku also used some level of effort to block Giran's punch before punching him to the gut... he wasn't so casual there.

As for the old and young Piccolo gap, true, I think I could drop old Piccolo to 135 or so (which would also fit better with Cyborg Tao, since most agree Cyborg Tao should be ~ old Piccolo at least), but I'd like to keep old Piccolo as far away from post 22nd Goku as possible, as to at least make some justice to the "I'm not even using half my power!!".

 

[ahill1]

@Super Saiyan tbf tailess Goku is probably stronger than Kuririn still given their pre training scuffle over that rock. I can see the gap being closed by training together, but nothing implies that.

@ahill1 what do you make of Roshi's 139? You think he trained?

Yeah, no other way unless he trained in secret and honed his skills. He's a martial artist after all, so that isn't so far off the track. He was also a little surprised with the difference the scouter pointed out between him and Kuririn, which should be obvious already going by the 23rd Budokai, unless ofc he got considerably stronger and thought he had closed the gap somewhat.

I can decrease 22nd Goku to 60 as a way to have old Piccolo Daimao using less than half considerably stronger than him (which would be impossible going by my above 70 BP for Goku).

22nd Kame -- 52
22nd Tenshinhan -- 58
22nd Goku -- 60
Less than half old Piccolo -- 74

What do you guys think? But yeah, less than half Piccolo being >> 22nd Goku is the only literal statement I'd be able to take into account. The "many times stronger" remain as hyperbole statements unless I assume BoDB Goku was like 2 and the farmer was a beast.

 

[SSJ2]

It looks a bit better but still extremely tight.

Also why do you have Karin so weak?

 

[ahill1]

It looks a bit better but still extremely tight.

Also why do you have Karin so weak?

Well, Karin seemed to been having some problems dodging Goku when this latter took the water. He wasn't effortlessly lecturing him.

I'm thinking of assuming the 408 and 416 level for Goku and Piccolo at the BoZ were resting levels, and their full power were in the 700s, 800s ballpark, which would also allow more room for 23rd Budokai Goku and Piccolo, but idk. It's possible tho, the same way Piccolo didn't vaporize the Saibaiman with just 1220.

 

[SSJ2]

Yea I've considered that logic for a while. People say that Raditz would've made note of the increase in power, but idk if he would have when he said that they could add hundreds of more degrees to their levels and still wouldn't be a match for him.

Maybe. Goku also had to resort to a cheap trick to get him to drop the flask. I also don't know if that training exercise in such a small region of space is the most direct evidence of a power difference.

 

[ahill1]

Yeah, it's somewhat weird because the wording when Goku climbed the Karin's tower later on didn't seem to indicate that big of a gap between post 22nd Budokai Goku and Karin... And the fact Goku still wanted to learn from him may indicate Karin is still somewhat relevant to Goku. But idk, I think that Karin shouldn't have problems avoiding Goku even if confined by a small place if he were comparable to 22nd Budokai Goku, unless he was holding back when holding the water.