Piccolo + Tired MSSJ Goku vs Cell Jr

[p123]

Vegeta/Trunks and the Cell Jrs are all above Goku at this point. Hell, even Piccolo is. Goku is clearly not anywhere near his full power.

Cell is way stronger than the Cell Juniors. That guidebook entry is factually incorrect.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Cell pointed-out the reason Goku was losing was because he was tired.

 

[p123]

Yeah, which shows that Fatigued Goku is weaker than Vegeta/Trunks and Piccolo.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

I didn't say otherwise. :| :| :|

 

[Pyro]

There'd be no significance to Cell pointing out Vegeta and Trunks fighting back if it was simply due to his children not being serious. We know they weren't going for the kill, but that doesn't mean they weren't near or at full power.

 

[Victorious]

Cell Junior probably wins. Goku is just about worthless at this point, he's probably 1.5x below Kamiccolo.

If you gave Kamiccolo Vegeta or Trunks though, the team would win.

 

[CroMagnumDVH]

Goku was just unable to beat the Cell Juniors at all. When Goku was tired before giving up, no one dared to switch, and Cell thought no one could match him, and that's knowing that he won't get a senzu bean. Vegeta himself knows that no one can beat Cell, and no one is able to switch with Cell. Cell thought that even Goku at that tired state, seems to be the best out of all the Z fighters to have fun with:

Spoiler

Cell in fact noted Goku's only drawback being that he has lost his stamina, not necessarily power:

Chapter: 402 (DBZ 208), P8.3
Cell: “Looks like you’ve lost quite a lot of stamina…It’s alright if you eat one of those ‘senzu’ things, Son Goku…This should be able to become an even more magnificent match.”

Chapter: 407 (DBZ 213), P5.3
Context: as the Cell Juniors beat everyone up
Cell (to Gohan): “If you don’t show your true worth soon, things will go past the point of no return. Look closely. Vegeta or Trunks are barely fighting evenly…Even Son Goku is in trouble, having lost his stamina…”

The Manga is pretty consistent with what Goku lacks, which is stamina and NOT power. This is directly stated, and Stamina =/= Power. Vegeta and Trunks, having their stamina undepleted, can keep up with the fight, but Goku can't which has NOTHING to do with one's own power to fight and this is portrayed very well in Dragon Ball Super.

Cell Juniors were playing around and this is also shown by how no human or any other z fighter was killed despite having the ability, and this is shown well in Kai. Note that Cell also implies that Cell juniors were holding back (the context doesn't go against it).

So, it makes sense that Cell Juniors would be near Cell himself, if not equal.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

If the Cell Jr.s were equal to Cell that'd be the most OP technique in all of DragonBall. I don't think so besides the anime (and the manga too) make it a point to show us that Cell still hadn't revealed his true power up-to that point and wonders who'll win, so...

 

[p123]

Nothing in the manga suggests they are on par. That's guidebook only tomfoolery.

 

[SSJ2]

It's not that complicated. The Cell Juniors fight seriously against Vegeta and Trunks and cant gain any sort of edge on them. It's an even battle. Meanwhile against Goku and the humans they are smiling and not taking the fight seriously, yet stomping them. If you do the math and add up what we see, Cell Jr >= Vegeta/Trunks > Piccolo >>> Tired MSSJ Goku.

The guidebooks mean nothing.

 

[Victorious]

Cell Juniors arent even close to Cell's full power. They're not even close to MSSJ Gohan's full power. They'd be worthless in a fight with Cell if he fought someone on his level. Why don't you think SPC would give rise to more Cell Juniors if he can just duplicate his power.


Perfect Cell (full power) >>> Perfect Cell (suppressed vs MSSj Gohan) ~ MSSJ Kid Gohan >> 100% MSSJ Goku >>> SSJ Vegeta ~ Cell Junior >>> extremely fatigued MSSJ Goku.

 

[CroMagnumDVH]

I would fix this chain like this:

Super Perfect Cell > Perfect Cell (full power) > Perfect Cell (suppressed vs MSSj Gohan) >= Cell Juniors >= MSSJ Kid Gohan > 100% MSSJ Goku > Post Stamina Loss MSsj Goku > SSJ Vegeta.

 

[Victorious]

I would fix this chain like this:

Super Perfect Cell > Perfect Cell (full power) > Perfect Cell (suppressed vs MSSj Gohan) >= Cell Juniors >= MSSJ Kid Gohan > 100% MSSJ Goku > Post Stamina Loss MSsj Goku > SSJ Vegeta.

Cell Juniors are not MSSJ Goku much less Gohan tier. They were beating an exhausted MSSJ Goku.

100% MSSJ Goku blows out Vegeta and Trunks, and Vegeta and Trunks are well above the exhausted Goku.

100% MSSJ Goku >>> SSJ Vegeta and Trunks >>> exhausted MSSJ Goku. Goku is probably at 30-40% power exhausted. His last attack on Cell cost him everything.

 

[CroMagnumDVH]

http://www.dbzeta.net/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=14938&p=369810#p369810

 

[GSM123]

Plus both Daizenshuu 7 and Dragon Books say Cell Jr are FPSSJ tier. Though Daizenshuu 7 contradicts itself by also saying Cell Jr = Vegeta in another entry.

But anyways, [mention]CroMagnumDVH[/mention] are you sure stamina and power aren't related? You can't maintain your Ki level if you lack the stamina, so one would drag the other down. Freeza had poor stamina and was weakened because of it.

Cell Jr toying with Vegeta and Trunks is a poor excuse, btw. No reason for Cell to point out. A better explanation would be saying Cell Jrs have poor fighting abilities since they're kids, but even that sounds like reaching.

 

[CroMagnumDVH]

But anyways, @CroMagnumDVH are you sure stamina and power aren't related? You can't maintain your Ki level if you lack the stamina, so one would drag the other down. Freeza had poor stamina and was weakened because of it.

Yes, at least looking at it from the DBS Anime. It's been shown clearly with Kefla's and Ultra Instinct Goku's case.

Cell Jr toying with Vegeta and Trunks is a poor excuse, btw. No reason for Cell to point out. A better explanation would be saying Cell Jrs have poor fighting abilities since they're kids, but even that sounds like reaching.

is it though? Doubtful since Cell even tells them to go serious at some point (The context doesn't go against this as no one pinpoints otherwise and nothing gies against it, especially since the anime shows this very clear in which a Cell Junior casually deflects a Final Flash).

 

[GSM123]

Yes, at least looking at it from the DBS Anime. It's been shown clearly with Kefla's and Ultra Instinct Goku's case.

It's common sense. If his stamina is down then he can't maintain his power, so naturally he'd become weaker.

[quoteis it though? Doubtful since Cell even tells them to go serious at some point (The context doesn't go against this as no one pinpoints otherwise and nothing gies against it, especially since the anime shows this very clear in which a Cell Junior casually deflects a Final Flash).
[/quote]

Because the other Cell Jrs were fooling around. Piccolo was also shown to be putting up a fight in the first part of the Cell Jr fight, yet he wasn't included in Cell's statement. Goes to show there's a difference between fighting a playful Cell Jr and making a Cell Jr go serious.

 

[CroMagnumDVH]

It's common sense. If his stamina is down then he can't maintain his power, so naturally he'd become weaker.

No. His stamina justifies if he can keep doing a specific activity continuously or not, has nothing to do with actually losing power.

Because the other Cell Jrs were fooling around. Piccolo was also shown to be putting up a fight in the first part of the Cell Jr fight, yet he wasn't included in Cell's statement. Goes to show there's a difference between fighting a playful Cell Jr and making a Cell Jr go serious.

Except in this context Cell didn't really mean to specify at all:

Chapter: 407 (DBZ 213), P5.3
Context: as the Cell Juniors beat everyone up
Cell (to Gohan): “If you don’t show your true worth soon, things will go past the point of no return. Look closely. Vegeta or Trunks are barely fighting evenly…Even Son Goku is in trouble, having lost his stamina…”
Note: Cell says that “Vegeta ya Trunks” are fighting evenly; ya is a non-exhaustive word for ‘and’, meaning the things listed aren’t necessarily the only things there are to list. In other words, Cell’s line doesn’t necessarily mean that nobody but Trunks or Vegeta are fighting evenly, just that they’re the first examples to come to mind

The anime is clear cut the Vegeta and Trunks are, in reality, total fodders for the Cell Juniors since the fact that a Cell Junior managed to casually deflect a final flash.

 

[GSM123]

No. His stamina justifies if he can keep doing a specific activity continuously or not, has nothing to do with actually losing power.

Yes. If he's lacking stamina he can't be as effective, what is shown to affect the size of your Ki.

Chapter: 401 (DBZ 207), P12.1
Context: Cell regenerates after getting hit with Goku's Kamehameha
Goku: “…But even your ki fell quite a bit from that.”
Cell: “Hmph, that goes for you too. Your heart's beating fast.”

Except in this context Cell didn't really mean to specify at all:

Chapter: 407 (DBZ 213), P5.3
Context: as the Cell Juniors beat everyone up
Cell (to Gohan): “If you don’t show your true worth soon, things will go past the point of no return. Look closely. Vegeta or Trunks are barely fighting evenly…Even Son Goku is in trouble, having lost his stamina…”
Note: Cell says that “Vegeta ya Trunks” are fighting evenly; ya is a non-exhaustive word for ‘and’, meaning the things listed aren’t necessarily the only things there are to list. In other words, Cell’s line doesn’t necessarily mean that nobody but Trunks or Vegeta are fighting evenly, just that they’re the first examples to come to mind

The anime is clear cut the Vegeta and Trunks are, in reality, total fodders for the Cell Juniors since the fact that a Cell Junior managed to casually deflect a final flash.

But Vegeta and Trunks are actually shown to make the Cell Jrs work though. If you look at the fight, everytime we get a close up we see the Jr who's fighting Vegeta or Trunks with a serious expression, in contrast to the Jr who's beating a human with a big smile on it's face.

Spoiler

Given how he struggles to give Vegeta a bruise, seems unlikely he'd catch a Final Flash.

 

[CroMagnumDVH]

Yes. If he's lacking stamina he can't be as effective, what is shown to affect the size of your Ki.

Chapter: 401 (DBZ 207), P12.1
Context: Cell regenerates after getting hit with Goku's Kamehameha
Goku: “…But even your ki fell quite a bit from that.”
Cell: “Hmph, that goes for you too. Your heart's beating fast.”

what you posted has nothing to do with stamina and power relation. Even the Goku who lost some Ki was stronger than the Z fighters individually. No one could switch with Goku bevause he was considered stromger than the rest. When they heard the idea of switching places, everyone was shocked and wanted Goku to continue despite being tired. So this is irrelevant at this point, but this has nothing to do with Stamina loss, Stamina isn't even mentioned in that text.

But Vegeta and Trunks are actually shown to make the Cell Jrs work though. If you look at the fight, everytime we get a close up we see the Jr who's fighting Vegeta or Trunks with a serious expression, in contrast to the Jr who's beating a human with a big smile on it's face.

Spoiler

Given how he struggles to give Vegeta a bruise, seems unlikely he'd catch a Final Flash.

Not really. This isn't the first time someone manages to hold his own against a stronger character, so there needs to be a literal statement that supports your notion, but Kai supports my point, while your premise is interpretative.