It's very simple KP, this shit ain't rocket science bro.
The humans are clearly pure trash.
Goku has fatigued so much he's not competitive at all anymore.
Piccolo is getting his ass kicked, but he's able to somewhat hold his own.
Vegeta and Trunks rival the Cell Juniors.
Am I the only one who feels like CG Vegeta, and by extension CG Trunks, are generally overestimated?
Instead of trying to pull Piccolo up closer to the SSJ pair... and thus over 50% Goku... why not re-evaluate the reasons for having them beyond 50% Goku in the first place. Taking into account Vegeta's entire demeanor in the build up to the battle, from the moment he arrives at the arena until Goku finally powers up to 100%... does that Vegeta really seem like a Vegeta that believes himself the strongest person there?
...because I'm pretty sure we all know what Vegeta is like when he believes he's the strongest...
I take his solid confidence of finishing Cell off as an indication he at least surpassed 50% Goku. I don't see any other reason to include his statement or having him be the first to arrive if he wasn't at least at that level. And Trunks is there by status quo. I could minimize things and put him at 60% of Goku, which isn't far from the 65% I currently use, but eh. Any lower and it starts to seem like he's got no purpose.
"Solid" might be an overstatement. It seems like more of a quiet, subdued confidence... almost uncertainty... as opposed to his usual arrogance when he's top of the food chain.
I think Vegeta's 'not so clearly' arrogance comes more from the fact that he believes Goku has more power than what he showed at Karin. He isn't completely sure like Piccolo and Trunks (since Goku flat out confirmed Piccolo's suspicions), but he has a feeling about it as well... hence why he wants to see what Kakarot's got when this latter is about to fight. But for him to at least be a bit anxious and in a hurry to arrive at the Cell Games, as well as commenting he'll be the one to finish it, tells me he surprassed Goku's 50% by a solid margin.
I like to associate Vegeta's confidence with Piccolo's when going to fight the androids: he doesn't doubt his own powers, but still has a bad feeling (probably due to there being a possibility of the androids being stronger than he anticipated). Piccolo obviously surpassed the minimum requirement (surpassing Mecha saga SSJ Trunks), but still is unsure if such is enough against the enemy's undetermined power.
...especially if you have 50% Goku and Cell@SSJG2 Trunks relatively close (Cell with the slight advantage obviously), because then they're not even required to exist.
Why not? Piccolo is fairly close to Cell Games Vegeta and Trunks and yet believes he is nothing to Cell. So he obviously should be expecting more from Cell & Goku.
...especially if you have 50% Goku and Cell@SSJG2 Trunks relatively close (Cell with the slight advantage obviously), because then they're not even required to exist.
Why not? Piccolo is fairly close to Cell Games Vegeta and Trunks and yet believes he is nothing to Cell. So he obviously should be expecting more from Cell & Goku.
Not if Vegeta and Trunks are ~< 50% Goku. The only reason people attempt to justify Piccolo's suspicions, or him having them in the first place is because they want to put him closer to Vegeta and Trunks... who they put over 50% Goku.
ahill1 said:
...especially if you have 50% Goku and Cell@SSJG2 Trunks relatively close (Cell with the slight advantage obviously), because then they're not even required to exist.
It's pretty possible. You just have SSJG3 Trunks, Cell, and 50% Goku all in the same'ish vicinity.
SSJG3 Trunks >= Cell >= 50% Goku... Trunks "surpasses" Cell but is still in that same tier. Goku powers up to that level and everyone craps themselves. Cell holds a slight advantage over Goku leaving everyone to accept Goku's whole "Oh yea, I can't win... pfft". And then Goku's confidence justifies Vegeta's whole "Show me what you can do"... as in he's expecting Goku to be slightly weaker... roughly the same level he's currently on... but wants to know why Goku is so confident... when he himself isn't (at least not at his usual levels).
Not if Vegeta and Trunks are ~< 50% Goku. The only reason people attempt to justify Piccolo's suspicions, or him having them in the first place is because they want to put him closer to Vegeta and Trunks... who they put over 50% Goku.
That's not the only reason. There's also Trunks' surprise towards Goku confirming that Piccolo is indeed useless. And said surprise wouldn't make sense if he already expected Piccolo to be fodder. Therefore he expected Piccolo to be competitive against Cell power-wise and if Piccolo himself pretty much knew he was useless then he should have known that Goku and Cell were hiding power.
SSJG3 Trunks >= Cell >= 50% Goku... Trunks "surpasses" Cell but is still in that same tier.
Cell stated Trunks' grade 3 power surpassed him by a wide margin. So I don't think it'd be a >= gap, but rather a >> one:
Goku powers up to that level and everyone craps themselves. Cell holds a slight advantage over Goku leaving everyone to accept Goku's whole "Oh yea, I can't win... pfft".
But by that time they'd most likely be already expecting more power from Cell. They probably knew Cell [warm up] =/= Cell [expected true power] given what Goku said:
"There's no way to tell how strong he can become if he finally gets down to business, which means the level Cell was giving off was just the tip of the iceberg.
Not if Vegeta and Trunks are ~< 50% Goku. The only reason people attempt to justify Piccolo's suspicions, or him having them in the first place is because they want to put him closer to Vegeta and Trunks... who they put over 50% Goku.
That's not the only reason. There's also Trunks' surprise towards Goku confirming that Piccolo is indeed useless. And said surprise wouldn't make sense if he already expected Piccolo to be fodder. Therefore he expected Piccolo to be competitive against Cell power-wise and if Piccolo himself pretty much knew he was useless then he should have known that Goku and Cell were hiding power.
Still fine. The important part was Goku and Cell being relatively close.
ahill1 said:
Goku powers up to that level and everyone craps themselves. Cell holds a slight advantage over Goku leaving everyone to accept Goku's whole "Oh yea, I can't win... pfft".
But by that time they'd most likely be already expecting more power from Cell. They probably knew Cell [warm up] =/= Cell [expected true power] given what Goku said:
"There's no way to tell how strong he can become if he finally gets down to business, which means the level Cell was giving off was just the tip of the iceberg.
Goku hadn't seen Cell fight. For all we know Cell is sitting at the level 16 read as lower than Vegeta... and when Goku speaks of expectations they're all just assuming the level he used to trounce SSJG2 Vegeta... or a little higher but something below SSJG3 Trunks because he admitted inferiority to that level.
Goku hadn't seen Cell fight. For all we know Cell is sitting at the level 16 read as lower than Vegeta... and when Goku speaks of expectations they're all just assuming the level he used to trounce SSJG2 Vegeta... or a little higher but something below SSJG3 Trunks because he admitted inferiority to that level.
See @p123, I am not the only one who came up with this point.
But see, I already brought up this point when debating P and Victorious, but it wasn't well accepted:
http://www.dbzeta.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8833&start=45
http://www.dbzeta.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9361&start=75
They say it's pointless if Goku is referring to the Cell who was read by #16 and that there's nothing indicating Cell suppressed himself after kicking Vegeta's ass. What do you think?
Goku: Whoa, Pickles, you powered up a bunch.
Pickles: No need to sugarcoat it, best bud, I know I couldn't stand up to Cell.
Goku: Yea, you're a piece of crap compared to our glorious bug saviour.
...I'd say it'd still be surprising considering he's met Goku for like 10 mins total and he seemed like a really good guy...
ahill1 said:
Goku hadn't seen Cell fight. For all we know Cell is sitting at the level 16 read as lower than Vegeta... and when Goku speaks of expectations they're all just assuming the level he used to trounce SSJG2 Vegeta... or a little higher but something below SSJG3 Trunks because he admitted inferiority to that level.
See @p123, I am not the only one who came up with this point.
But see, I already brought up this point when debating P and Victorious, but it wasn't well accepted:
http://www.dbzeta.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8833&start=45
http://www.dbzeta.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9361&start=75
They say it's pointless if Goku is referring to the Cell who was read by #16 and that there's nothing indicating Cell suppressed himself after kicking Vegeta's ass. What do you think?
I don't believe he was "suppressed" in the first place.
Compare it to Goku arriving on Namek... or Freeza (who is technically the best example of varying levels but Goku has the numbers so I'll use them both). They both have varying states of power... I'll label them as "suppressed" "base" and "powered up" for now.
Suppressed (takes effort to maintain):
Goku: from 0 to 5000
Freeza: His suppression forms (obviously)
Base (effortless, requiring no visual power-up, range varies - basically what they stand around at and can jump to without "powering up"):
Goku: from 5000 to 70k+ (rough example)
Freeza: Initial Final Form to 70% Cell: from "below SSJG2 Vegeta" to "below SSJG3 Trunks" would slip in here
Powered Up (effort to maintain):
Goku: 70k+ - 90k
Freeza: 70% - 100%
Cell just did to Vegeta what Goku did to the Ginyu Force.
...and wasn't required to push through to that "powered up" level to deal with Trunks and his idiocy.
Goku: Whoa, Pickles, you powered up a bunch.
Pickles: No need to sugarcoat it, best bud, I know I couldn't stand up to Cell.
Goku: Yea, you're a piece of crap compared to our glorious bug saviour.
...I'd say it'd still be surprising considering he's met Goku for like 10 mins total and he seemed like a really good guy...
Well, he just saw how blunt Goku was towards his father, don't holding his tongue and saying how he is way more powerful than him.
Cell said:
I don't believe he was "suppressed" in the first place.
Compare it to Goku arriving on Namek... or Freeza (who is technically the best example of varying levels but Goku has the numbers so I'll use them both). They both have varying states of power... I'll label them as "suppressed" "base" and "powered up" for now.
Suppressed (takes effort to maintain):
Goku: from 0 to 5000
Freeza: His suppression forms (obviously)
Base (effortless, requiring no visual power-up, range varies - basically what they stand around at and can jump to without "powering up"):
Goku: from 5000 to 70k+ (rough example)
Freeza: Initial Final Form to 70%
Cell: from "below SSJG2 Vegeta" to "below SSJG3 Trunks" would slip in here
Powered Up (effort to maintain):
Goku: 70k+ - 90k
Freeza: 70% - 100%
Cell just did to Vegeta what Goku did to the Ginyu Force.
...and wasn't required to push through to that "powered up" level to deal with Trunks and his idiocy.
Interesting perspective, though how you see Trunks being at a power level of 5 while not exerting himself? That seemed to be his PL when doing nothing and being as relaxed as possible imo.
Also, how do you justify Goku only feeling the Cell who was < Grade 2 Vegeta despite the level who was > Grade 2 being still of easy access and not straining? I generally operate under the belief that when a character shows more of his powers and even when the fight is over, the next one who comments on his chi would be referring to said chi post all of the power ups. For example, Fat Boo did three power ups against Vegeta/Gohan, and then when Goku comments on his chi (Goku was unconscious during the 2 last power ups) he'd be sensing his latest power up, pretty much assuming his chi wouldn't go down.
Besides, those silent power ups stuff might be a bit tricky. If you think [tooling Vegeta] Cell is >= 50% Goku, then warm up Goku against Cell should be around his 50% power. Yet Goku had to "visually" power up himself to reach 50%, and this "visual power up" wasn't shown when he "powered up" from his resting state to his warm up state. So, according to your theory, shouldn't warm up Goku [vs Cell] be different compared to 50% Goku, with the former being his "base" state and the latter being his "powered up" state?
Also sorry for the amount of questions, but I tend to get carried on
Man, this is worse than Piccolo (Androids) vs Freeza. People just can't get over the fact that SSG3 Trunks is a poop and that Cell Game powers are so high.
SSJG3 could totally be viable though in some circumstances. One on one battle, no. But what's different about SSJG2 Vegeta and SSJG3 Trunks and there chances against Cell? Both have to trick Cell into taking on their blast. Trunks at least is powerful enough to finish off Cell, whereas Vegeta can't get it done.
Either way, the scene depicts Goku blowing past all powers, even those "useless" ones.
Goku: Whoa, Pickles, you powered up a bunch.
Pickles: No need to sugarcoat it, best bud, I know I couldn't stand up to Cell.
Goku: Yea, you're a piece of crap compared to our glorious bug saviour.
...I'd say it'd still be surprising considering he's met Goku for like 10 mins total and he seemed like a really good guy...
True enough... but it's still very blunt... as seen by Piccolo's response-frame. With Vegeta it was a lighter comment, harsher reaction... Piccolo's is more of a harsh comment but an accepting reaction. -shrug-
ahill1 said:
Interesting perspective, though how you see Trunks being at a power level of 5 while not exerting himself? That seemed to be his PL when doing nothing and being as relaxed as possible imo.
-shrug- He's half-human... perhaps their base level can go that low... and that's why the farmer registered at 5 also... that's just the human default without Ki.
ahill1 said:
Also, how do you justify Goku only feeling the Cell who was < Grade 2 Vegeta despite the level who was > Grade 2 being still of easy access and not straining? I generally operate under the belief that when a character shows more of his powers and even when the fight is over, the next one who comments on his chi would be referring to said chi post all of the power ups. For example, Fat Boo did three power ups against Vegeta/Gohan, and then when Goku comments on his chi (Goku was unconscious during the 2 last power ups) he'd be sensing his latest power up, pretty much assuming his chi wouldn't go down.
Fat Buu is probably a bad example as Goku seemed to be the first one to notice that his Ki was a lie. Gohan caught on... late... but Goku seemed well aware of Buu's strength from the get go (or at least a huge majority of it).
As for people always remaining at their previous level... just look at Freeza. He's defeated on Namek... he doesn't reappear at that same level, he's noted to be a good chunk lower by Gohan. Again, Goku vs the Ginyu's... he's not actively pushing himself back down to 5k... it just settles back to that after he's done exerting himself.... like a muscle returning to it's relaxed position after being used.
ahill1 said:
Besides, those silent power ups stuff might be a bit tricky. If you think [tooling Vegeta] Cell is >= 50% Goku, then warm up Goku against Cell should be around his 50% power. Yet Goku had to "visually" power up himself to reach 50%, and this "visual power up" wasn't shown when he "powered up" from his resting state to his warm up state. So, according to your theory, shouldn't warm up Goku [vs Cell] be different compared to 50% Goku, with the former being his "base" state and the latter being his "powered up" state?
Warm up Goku doesn't have to be around his 50% power... he could simply be at Cell's starting point... lower than SSJG2 Vegeta. That whole silent powerup thing still applies to Goku in his SSJ state (I believe this was a feature of his post-RoSaT SSJ... as opposed to pre-RoSaT SSJ's simply "turning on" SSJ)... so Goku sits at roughly Cell's level (below SSJG2 Vegeta) for their warm up... then, as everyone is clearly expecting, they power up.
ahill1 said:
Also sorry for the amount of questions, but I tend to get carried on
Ask as much as you want... I'm making this up as I go. Exploring options, playing devils advocate... whatever you want to call it. I just don't like how placements sometimes get so set in stone but no one remembers why...
