PLG Power Level List

[Power Level Guy]

Goku beats Cooler, Cooler gets a zenkai and Vegeta has to show up to save Goku. I remember because they even remade that scene from Goku vs 19 where Vegeta shows up and saves Goku from being chocked.

Ok, I'll have to see it again.

 

[Dagon]

Goku beats Cooler, Cooler gets a zenkai and Vegeta has to show up to save Goku. I remember because they even remade that scene from Goku vs 19 where Vegeta shows up and saves Goku from being chocked.

Do you think the relative power levels in the different fights could be comparable? Like sick Goku vs 19 = SSJ Goku bs initial Metal Cooler, and so on. Not in terms of actual power levels just how they compare within each fight.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Do you think the relative power levels in the different fights could be comparable? Like sick Goku vs 19 = SSJ Goku bs initial Metal Cooler, and so on. Not in terms of actual power levels just how they compare within each fight.

I don’t think so. Goku vs Cooler was relatively close IIRC, while Goku vs 19 was one sided.

 

[SIAD]

What level do you give Humans in BoZ?

 

[Power Level Guy]

Ok, updated a lot of the Rosat, Cell Games, Buu Saga stuff

No longer going with

Base Saiyans > Kaioshin > Piccolo Base Boys

I’ve chosen to go the route that allows for Kaioshon to be as weak as he’s suggested independent of his placement with Piccolo. It’s made it far more manageable.

The boys are suggested to be somewhat close to the adults, if Piccolo is in the way, that’s fine, but with Kaioshin adding all that it won’t be possible.

I argue that Piccolo never sensed Kaioshin’s power and although we don’t have clear indication that Kaioshin > Piccolo is false, there’s some clear indirect implications that it is.

Kaioshin is far too much of a fanboy of the Base Saiyans for him not to be extremely weak. Piccolo would never be mystified by their power as he is. It’s bad enough he’s relegated to Base Saiyans levels, he’s not going to consider them gods.

Kaioshin is Ssj Goku level, but this time not from the Cell Games, but from the Androids Saga.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Something that i've noticed is that Goku vs Metal Cooler has also the same choreography as Vegeta vs 18 and Metal Cooler stomping Goku and Vegeta also has some similarity with 18 stomping Vegeta. So, I think they're using their android arc selves as a whole, but that's just me.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Something that i've noticed is that Goku vs Metal Cooler has also the same choreography as Vegeta vs 18 and Metal Cooler stomping Goku and Vegeta also has some similarity with 18 stomping Vegeta. So, I think they're using their android arc selves as a whole, but that's just me.

Yeah that’s what I ended up doing this time around. It does seem appropriate.

I did make Vegeta Goku’s equal instead of his slight superior, did you copy exactly the gaps from the Androids Saga?

 

[Kyo]

I don't think I can see eye to eye with anyone dismissing Goku's and Piccolo's stated BoZ levels. The other BoZ levels being bad isn't a good enough reason to me.

 

[SIAD]

Your numbers look interesting, but shouldn't Base Saiyans (Initial Estimate) > Piccolo?

Piccolo was called "trash", while the Saiyans were called "A great source of energy". All this was before the Pui Pui vs Vegeta match.

 

[Power Level Guy]

I don't think I can see eye to eye with anyone dismissing Goku's and Piccolo's stated BoZ levels. The other BoZ levels being bad isn't a good enough reason to me.

Definitely understandable. How do you get around the ki amp issues and the implications from the 23rd Budokai? Humans are implied to be perhaps 100x weaker and Kamehameha being 2.22x creates insane issue. What’s the regular Kamehameha?

 

[Power Level Guy]

Your numbers look interesting, but shouldn't Base Saiyans (Initial Estimate) > Piccolo?

Piccolo was called "trash", while the Saiyans were called "A great source of energy". All this was before the Pui Pui vs Vegeta match.

I think everyone was underestimated.

 

[SIAD]

What level do you give Humans in BoZ?

 

[Kyo]

Definitely understandable. How do you get around the ki amp issues and the implications from the 23rd Budokai? Humans are implied to be perhaps 100x weaker and Kamehameha being 2.22x creates insane issue. What’s the regular Kamehameha?

1. In a ki beam struggle, the beams cancel each other out to an extent. Goku didn't just hit Piccolo with a KHH, he had to go through Piccolo's beam to do it. Another good example of this is Goku vs Vegeta. This has interesting implications on Gohan vs Cell if you accept it, but amps are so much bigger by that point and that fact alone is probably enough to explain away what happens there.

2. Characters must be able to use their ki to brace themselves for oncoming ki attacks. Even a 1.25x KHH should, on paper, seriously hurt Piccolo if he takes it head-on there, but it doesn't. In this case, and in the Vegeta case, this is attributed to the characters' toughness, and we can indeed say that the characters are tougher than expected, but we can also assume that they're good at defending themselves with their own ki.

3. You can probably assume that Goku improved the amp between 23TB and Raditz a little.

It's also important to remember that the Raditz fight was written immediately after the 23TB fight. Obviously there's stuff from the 23TB that Toriyama completely fucked up, like the humans' levels relative to Piccolo, but those levels weren't important when he wrote them in. His vision of what the Super KHH is capable of is probably misguided, but should be given more weight because it's used in a fight.

 

[Kyo]

Also, I know you like to give Goku and Vegeta the same amp in the early arcs these days, but it makes complete sense to me that Goku would be better at it.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

I did make Vegeta Goku’s equal instead of his slight superior, did you copy exactly the gaps from the Androids Saga?

Yes, I have Vegeta slightly superior to Goku in this movie.

 

[Power Level Guy]

1. In a ki beam struggle, the beams cancel each other out to an extent. Goku didn't just hit Piccolo with a KHH, he had to go through Piccolo's beam to do it. Another good example of this is Goku vs Vegeta. This has interesting implications on Gohan vs Cell if you accept it, but amps are so much bigger by that point and that fact alone is probably enough to explain away what happens there.

The author didn't spend a lot of time doling out some of these assigned power levels. There are severe repercussions to his suggested ki amplifications. Let me ask you a series of questions which will show you the issues which has forced me to alter the author's original work (for the better) to make a better, more cohesive in universe world.

Imagine if Goku and Vegeta were of equal power in the Saiyan Saga.

Goku 18,000
Vegeta 18,000

What is Galick Gun and what is Kamehameha?

Now imagine Goku vs Vegeta equal power levels on Namek.

Goku 3,000,000
Vegeta 3,000,000

What is Final Burst Cannon and what is Kamehameha?

Ok, now imagine Goku vs Vegeta at equal power level at the Androids Saga.

Super Saiyan Goku 250,000,000
Super Saiyan Vegeta 250,000,000

What is Big Bang Attack and what is Kamehameha?

See, the thing is, the author has a narrative. He ambushed himself with his own numbers and his numbers destroy his own narrative. We can only make one choice, we either stay with the numbers and get a false narrative or, we stay with the narrative and change the numbers. That's the best we can do. For me, I believe the in universe narrative is far more important to the random numbers assigned by a forgetful author who didn't spend more than a couple of hours at best to come up with them. We must stick with what is logical. If the author was able to redo all of his power levels, he surely would change them. Unless you think he got it perfect within a couple of hours of thought for an entire series. And let's not forget he's not a person who plans things out, the fact he was able to make the power scaling somewhat relative is an amazing feat in itself. The idea that someone can't do a better job is ludicrous though. Clearly spending thousands of hours on the issue would put you in a position to do a better job than someone who spent a mere few.

2. Characters must be able to use their ki to brace themselves for oncoming ki attacks. Even a 1.25x KHH should, on paper, seriously hurt Piccolo if he takes it head-on there, but it doesn't. In this case, and in the Vegeta case, this is attributed to the characters' toughness, and we can indeed say that the characters are tougher than expected, but we can also assume that they're good at defending themselves with their own ki.

Amps are piss weak until the Androids Saga imo. That's the narrative behind them. A 2x amp is not piss weak.

3. You can probably assume that Goku improved the amp between 23TB and Raditz a little.

I meant what's the difference between regular Kamehameha and Super Kamehameha. If it's huge, you just completely changed the narrative of all events.

It's also important to remember that the Raditz fight was written immediately after the 23TB fight. Obviously there's stuff from the 23TB that Toriyama completely fucked up, like the humans' levels relative to Piccolo, but those levels weren't important when he wrote them in. His vision of what the Super KHH is capable of is probably misguided, but should be given more weight because it's used in a fight.

It simply doesn't work. If you do the numbers and walk through the scenarios I've presented, you will come to that conclusion as well. It's unrealistic for the author to be expected to have a perfectly rational ki amp progression throughout the series he was making up as he went along. We have far more resources and time to actually make something halfway feasible.

 

[Dragon Ball Master]

Those power levels are really weird and off for a guy named power level guy. Have seen better ones on youtube from Vegito1089 and even those were bad

 

[Power Level Guy]

Those power levels are really weird and off for a guy named power level guy. Have seen better ones on youtube from Vegito1089 and even those were bad

Well these are more of a “What if Toriyama could start all over and make the power levels consistent” kind of thing. It’s an attempt to improve upon the authors work to make it all work together.

If something is different then you expect it’s probably that way for a very good reason.

Which parts did you think was most poorly done?

 

[ahill1]

Come on, you're talking to the power level boss.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Come on, you're talking to the power level boss.

Haha well I don’t have that attitude anymore but the overall idea has always been logical to me. The author spent less than ten hours designing a numerical structure of his work, the guidebooks probably spent last then 100. So why wouldn’t someone with 10,000 hours have a better system?

Seems like common sense to me. I’m not trying to perfectly portray the authors system, I’m trying to make a better one. Which I think I’ve definitely done.