Power Level Issues

[p123]

Alright, in my recent go around, I've come across quite a number of issues. Maybe you guys can help me out with some of my issues.

1) Super Saiyan Boost

As always, the 50x boost can cause some serious trouble. Now, on one hand, I find the need for a 50x boost 100% needed. There is no way I can possibly keep the power of the Base Saiyans under control without a 50x boost. The problem I end up running into is the Base Kids start dwarfing Android 18. And I definitely don't want that. Also, we don't want Cell Game's Base Trunks dwarfing the Future Androids as well. So it has to be kept reasonably. The power jumps from the Androids Saga to the Cell Game are so massive, a 50x boost is absolutely necessary in my opinion. There is simply no way to keep Android 18 a mere 10x away from Cell Game Super Saiyan level. The ultimate cincher is the logic of 50% Goku >> Warm Up Goku absolutely puts the issue to bed. If you don't go by it ( you should ), you have a chance, but if you do, you are going to freakin need the 50x boost.


2) Fusion Transformation Boosts

Ah, another massive, massive issue. Well since we've figured out we definitely need a 50x boost for other power level issues, makes sense to use the regular boosts for fusions as well right? WRONG! The quickest way to let the series get out of hand is to use the same boost for the fusions as you do the unfused. You are going to have to discard Base Gotenks Post > SSJ Gotenks Pre for sure, you are going to have to discard Base Gotenks Pre > Majin Vegeta for sure and guess what Base Gokan > Buutenks completely makes Vegetto a bitch if you are reasonable with his superiority over Buuhan. Not many people have Super Saiyan Vegetto 50x stronger than Buuhan ( you shouldn't ) so we end up with Gokan completely dwarfing Vegetto. Which doesn't feel right either. Unless it does? Also, Gotenks and Gohan get ridiculously more powerful than Goku, which also doesn't feel right. Goku is without a doubt a large deal inferior, but man, making Goku 100x weaker just seems absurd don't it?

One of my main solutions to keeping the Buu Saga in order was actually discarding Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and having him fight it out with Super Buu strictly as a Super Saiyan. This would have kept things in order, but it actually does seem a bit too tight. A potential Post Zeta SSJ3 Gohan would already be somewhere around Ultimate Gohan's power, which doesn't make sense since Elder Kaioshin brought him way, way, way past his limits.


3) Rage Boost, Gohan's Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan debate

To rage boost or not to rage boost, Super Saiyan 1 or Super Saiyan 2. This battle rages on forever and it's tied together and jumbled up. Each approach causes wildly different numbers and leads you to accept certain things you wouldn't have normally done.





All in all, I got a real good set going on this time, but these issues still plague me. Keep in mind I have been focusing on the Cell Game - Buu Saga levels this time and not really addressing any prior concerns. Most of the power level issues do come during this time period so I am choosing to focus on that for now.

 

[ahill1]

I usually go with SSJ being 50 x boost ... but I don't think it's wrong to have Goten and Trunks base much stronger than # 18, since Chibi Trunks and Goten were still in the Mighty Mask costume and its constraints, and they even said clothing like that would make it hard to win as Super Saiyans, so I don't believe #18 has to be close to the kids that much. I mean, would you imagine Gohan-tier SSJs struggling with #18? Clearly the suit is an unbelievable nerf tool.

In addition the SSJ could still be a 50 x boost; usually you can't make Gotenks base > Majin Vegeta, but that's not something factual; Krillin thought Gotenks could defeat Fat Buu based on his confidence, not only in his power. That said, Gotenks base doesn't need necessarily be stronger than Majin Vegeta. What's wrong with Gotenks SSJ3 being 100x stronger than Goku SSJ3? In my list I have Gotenks SSJ3 and Super Boo being around 1,000 x stronger than Goku SSJ3. Goku is clearly rubbish compared with Gotenks and Super Boo. That said Gotenks base > Gotenks SSJ could still work with a 50x boost.

The only problem I have with the "Rage Boost" is that Vegeta and Goku ended up being much stronger than Chibi Trunks and Goten and I really don't like this. Chibi Trunks gave Vegeta troubles to avoid his punches, I would like to see Chibi Trunks SSJ being at 88% of Vegeta SSJ based on this.

 

[Yoshi]

Toriyama made the SSJ with a x10 boost in mind. I don't find an issue with people using a x10 boost beyond the Freeza or Trunks Arc as a retcon. I don't agree, but it lessens bloating.

Perhaps the boost decreases for Fusion if you get stronger. I don't see any reason for it to increase, but it would make things easier than just having a set multiplier.

Agreed... The rage boost debate will go on forever.

 

[FutureProtagonist]

Super Saiyan increases your power "a lot".
Gohan gets stronger when he's angry.
Fusion is an "extreme" boost.

Reduce the abstraction however you like. I doubt Toriyama knows these things any more than you do. :circle

 

[Yoshi]

Super Saiyan increases your power "a lot".
Gohan gets stronger when he's angry.
Fusion is an "extreme" boost.

Reduce the abstraction however you like. I doubt Toriyama knows these things any more than you do. :circle

:lol

 

[p123]

Ha, easier said then done. Correlation is really difficult to do and there is no way AT was able to actually numerically put this altogether. It becomes very difficult to make it work but you can get like 80% of it to work together. That last 20% is a killer.

 

[SSJ2]

The ultimate cincher is the logic of 50% Goku >> Warm Up Goku absolutely puts the issue to bed. If you don't go by it ( you should ), you have a chance, but if you do, you are going to freakin need the 50x boost.

What % do you have Goku at when he fights Cell, then?

 

[withheldforprivacy]

Alright, in my recent go around, I've come across quite a number of issues. Maybe you guys can help me out with some of my issues.

1) Super Saiyan Boost

As always, the 50x boost can cause some serious trouble. Now, on one hand, I find the need for a 50x boost 100% needed. There is no way I can possibly keep the power of the Base Saiyans under control without a 50x boost. The problem I end up running into is the Base Kids start dwarfing Android 18. And I definitely don't want that. Also, we don't want Cell Game's Base Trunks dwarfing the Future Androids as well. So it has to be kept reasonably. The power jumps from the Androids Saga to the Cell Game are so massive, a 50x boost is absolutely necessary in my opinion. There is simply no way to keep Android 18 a mere 10x away from Cell Game Super Saiyan level. The ultimate cincher is the logic of 50% Goku >> Warm Up Goku absolutely puts the issue to bed. If you don't go by it ( you should ), you have a chance, but if you do, you are going to freakin need the 50x boost.


2) Fusion Transformation Boosts

Ah, another massive, massive issue. Well since we've figured out we definitely need a 50x boost for other power level issues, makes sense to use the regular boosts for fusions as well right? WRONG! The quickest way to let the series get out of hand is to use the same boost for the fusions as you do the unfused. You are going to have to discard Base Gotenks Post > SSJ Gotenks Pre for sure, you are going to have to discard Base Gotenks Pre > Majin Vegeta for sure and guess what Base Gokan > Buutenks completely makes Vegetto a bitch if you are reasonable with his superiority over Buuhan. Not many people have Super Saiyan Vegetto 50x stronger than Buuhan ( you shouldn't ) so we end up with Gokan completely dwarfing Vegetto. Which doesn't feel right either. Unless it does? Also, Gotenks and Gohan get ridiculously more powerful than Goku, which also doesn't feel right. Goku is without a doubt a large deal inferior, but man, making Goku 100x weaker just seems absurd don't it?

One of my main solutions to keeping the Buu Saga in order was actually discarding Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and having him fight it out with Super Buu strictly as a Super Saiyan. This would have kept things in order, but it actually does seem a bit too tight. A potential Post Zeta SSJ3 Gohan would already be somewhere around Ultimate Gohan's power, which doesn't make sense since Elder Kaioshin brought him way, way, way past his limits.


3) Rage Boost, Gohan's Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan debate

To rage boost or not to rage boost, Super Saiyan 1 or Super Saiyan 2. This battle rages on forever and it's tied together and jumbled up. Each approach causes wildly different numbers and leads you to accept certain things you wouldn't have normally done.





All in all, I got a real good set going on this time, but these issues still plague me. Keep in mind I have been focusing on the Cell Game - Buu Saga levels this time and not really addressing any prior concerns. Most of the power level issues do come during this time period so I am choosing to focus on that for now.

1. You can use 40x-50x a boost and keep the Base Kids at Eighteen's level; it's not that hard. But i don't think
Base Future Trunks has to stay below Future Androids. He had no reason to hold anything back against the
guys who had ruined his life.
2. I agree with using a lower SSJ multiplier for fusions.
3. I have posted a whole thread about my theory on Gohan's powers.

 

[p123]

I generally like to have Goku at 25% for his warm up.

 

[Animelover5487]

I'm pretty sure Goku never powered up or powered down after showing Karin half of his power, so I doubt he was using any less power for the warm up with Cell.

 

[SSJ2]

Yeah.. it's not like he had an aura or anything when he power up for Karin, I don't see why he needs to get weaker after that.

 

[Kyo]

He tells Karin something like "that was half my strength" or something. Not quite, but what he definitely doesn't say is "this is half my strength," he essentially states that the power from just before was half, i.e. he did in fact power down. Plus, the whole point of staying in SSJ all the time was that he could do so in a casual everyday state (=/= 50%).

That said, that fact doesn't detract from the warm up = 50% stance, but I wouldn't argue for it that way is all.

 

[Papasmurf]

No real reason to think his power remained as high as 50% imo. For easy comparison, compare the way Tenshithands and co. shat their pants during Gaku and Pickle's warm-up in the 23rd and compare it to the way they acted when warming-up Gaku fought Sell. A power above ultra muscular Vegeta should be treated like a bigger deal imo.

 

[p123]

Yea, Goku's warm up power is way below 50% of his power he showcased.

 

[Animelover5487]

No real reason to think his power remained as high as 50% imo. For easy comparison, compare the way Tenshithands and co. shat their pants during Gaku and Pickle's warm-up in the 23rd and compare it to the way they acted when warming-up Gaku fought Sell. A power above ultra muscular Vegeta should be treated like a bigger deal imo.

You never thought Vegeta and Trunks could have surpassed that level as ordinary Super Saiyans from their second trip in the ROSAT......?

 

[Zoom]

@p123

Great post as usual. I think the rage boost is definitely a real thing since they are many reference to it by Goku and Gohan (in the Cell arc) and Vegeta (in the Buu arc).

 

[Papasmurf]

No real reason to think his power remained as high as 50% imo. For easy comparison, compare the way Tenshithands and co. shat their pants during Gaku and Pickle's warm-up in the 23rd and compare it to the way they acted when warming-up Gaku fought Sell. A power above ultra muscular Vegeta should be treated like a bigger deal imo.

You never thought Vegeta and Trunks could have surpassed that level as ordinary Super Saiyans from their second trip in the ROSAT......?

Tenshithands and the others were watching?

 

[Animelover5487]

No real reason to think his power remained as high as 50% imo. For easy comparison, compare the way Tenshithands and co. shat their pants during Gaku and Pickle's warm-up in the 23rd and compare it to the way they acted when warming-up Gaku fought Sell. A power above ultra muscular Vegeta should be treated like a bigger deal imo.

You never thought Vegeta and Trunks could have surpassed that level as ordinary Super Saiyans from their second trip in the ROSAT......?

Tenshithands and the others were watching?

Um, what? You're confusing me now. Your argument for why Goku wasn't as high as 50% in his warm up against Cell was because the others weren't shitting their pants like they were with Goku vs Junior, claiming that a power level higher than Grade 2 SSJ Vegeta should have been treated like a bigger deal. I responded by asking you that it never dawned on you that Vegeta, Trunks and Piccolo surpassed that level during their training in the ROSAT.

 

[Papasmurf]

A power greater than the last guys to be treated like a big deal would merit more of a reaction from the much weaker humans even if it's old news to Vegeta.