Question about Saiyan arc Vegeta's levels

[Evil Vegeta]

Kaio: “But Son Goku has no strength left. Even without Oozaru, the Saiyan may be more than enough for him. But he’s gotten weaker too! The way he is now, if we could only hit him with the Genki-Dama, we’ll win for sure!!!!”

Kaio seems to be hoping Vegeta's weaker in Viz, but seems to have no doubt he's weaker in the original.

I've been thinking about this a lot more lately. Goku beat his ass pretty good with Kaio-Ken x3 and overpowered him with Kaio-Ken x4 KMHMH. Kaio made note of Vegeta weakening, but how weakened do you believe he actually was?

Similar to the above question. How much power do you believe Vegeta lost when he created that fake moon?

And finally, after being returned to normal, where do you think Vegeta stands?

This sorta goes back to Saiyaman's topic about the Genki-Dama and how it compares to Vegeta. Both intact and with half of its power depleted.

 

[Animelover5487]

Goku said even with a Kaioken x5 he wouldn't be able to defeat Oozaru Vegeta so Oozaru Vegeta is >> 40k. I am thinking somewhere along the lines of 50k works for Vegeta's Oozaru form so Post-Power Ball would be around 5,000. Which actually makes sense since Gohan who was no more pissed than when he fired the Masenko at Nappa could put up somewhat of a fight against Post-Tail Vegeta who likely didn't get too much weaker.

 

[SSJ2]

I would also ask how weak Goku was when Kaio said "Son Goku has no strength left". Because both Kaio and Goku agreed that a Genki Dama was the only way to win, did Base Vegeta still exceed a level that Kaioken Goku could beat? Vegeta then lost a tremendous amount of power creating the moon ball, though his Oozaru form was still strong enough that Kaioken x5 would have been useless. So which Kaioken x5 is being considered here? Goku at his best, or Goku in that moment? Both result in different levels for weakened Vegeta.


Vegeta: 18,500
Weakened: 12,000
Post Moon Ball: 5,000
Oozaru: 50,000

Goku: 8,050
Kaioken: 16,100
Kaioken x3: 24,150
Kaioken x4: 32,200
Kaioken x5: 40,250

Or if the Kaioken x5 and "Goku has no strength" statements are based on weakened Goku:

Vegeta: 18,500
Weakened: 10,000
Post Moon Ball: 3,000
Oozaru: 30,000

Goku: 4,000
Kaioken x5: 20,000


I actually like option 2 better, as it makes more sense out of Gohan vs Vegeta. I don't think having his tail cut off should be responsible for bringing down to enraged Gohan's level.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

This is what I have for Vegeta.

Vegeta: 18,750
~ Post Beam Struggle: 12,500
~ Post Power Ball: 4,500
~ Oozaru: 3,000

He doesn’t really seem that weakened after the Kamehameha. The Ki Ball probably took more of his Ki. Vegeta was panting pretty badly after reverting to base and most Saiyans actually pass out here, see Goku and Vegeta’s transformations. It’s a pretty rough process. Overall I estimated Vegeta’s strength by working backwards on him fighting Gohan and took into account Goku’s Kaio-Ken x5 statement.

@SSJ2 as weakened as Goku was, I think he was talking his full power into account. Against Freeza he was also beaten pretty badly before pulling the Kaio-Ken x20, but still managed to push himself to his best regardless.

 

[SSJ2]

Goku only took several attacks from 50% Freeza. His body was on the verge of self destructing when Kaio made that statement. It's not a great comparison.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Now here's another question: where do you guys see both the Full and Half-Power Genki-Dama?

Do you believe it has to be stronger than Oozaru Vegeta? Or was Goku mainly hoping it would do something?

 

[Hector]

Vegeta
-full power: 18.000
-post beam struggle: 4.800
-post making moon: 4.500
-oozaru: 45.000

Goku
-full power: 8.000
-post beam struggle: 2.000

Gohan
-full power: 1.400
-enraged (nappa): 2.800
-enraged (vegeta): 4.200

 

[SSJ2]

Now here's another question: where do you guys see both the Full and Half-Power Genki-Dama?

Do you believe it has to be stronger than Oozaru Vegeta? Or was Goku mainly hoping it would do something?

I definitely think it should be above Vegeta, and likely by a significant amount. Both Kaio and Goku made it clear that they had no chance aside from it, so even if it managed to weaken Vegeta, Goku wasn't in the fighting shape to finish him off. That creates a problem with weakened Vegeta managing to survive the half power Genki Dama, but durability feats were never consistent anyway.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I think Goku’s line to Vegeta after making the power ball kinda suggests Vegeta got weaker than him. He’s genuinely baffled as to why he’d do that.

Chapter: 232 (DBZ 38), P11.2
Context: as Vegeta uses the Power Ball
Goku: “His ki went down as soon as he made that weird light!! What would he go and do that for?! I don’t get it!!”

@Evil Vegeta you’re still here right?

 

[SSJ2]

It only needs to signify a massive loss of ki.