Radtiz Saga Scouter Numbers are Impossible

[p123]

When you look at the manga overall, you can see that these numbers, just don't add up.

Let's go after the Roshi number right away.

Old Piccolo Daimao (Full Power) >> Old PD (Less than Half) >> Goku's Kamehameha > Goku >= Initial PD

Even if you don't think that Goku got a zenkai from recovering from Tambourine, Roshi should be a bit under Initial PD. PD's power up is tremendous, going from slightly below Goku to being able to perform one of the sickest tanks in the manga. He tanks the Kamehameha like nothing happened at all. There is a multi fold gap here for sure, let's keep it at 2x for a minimum right now. Then, Piccolo tells us, his power is not even half of his power. Then we go on to see he gets ridiculously stronger after he becomes young. Even at your absolute lowest, he should be at least 1.5x stronger than his old self. That is by the way, severely undercutting the power jump imo as well.
We know Super God Water Goku is a bit stronger than Young Piccolo. Then, Tien at the 23rd Budokai is above even that.


Tien 23rd Budokai 17,500
Super God Water Goku 15,000
Young Piccolo (At worst) 15,000
Old Piccolo 10,000
Old PD (Less than Half) 4,000
Goku's Kamehameha 2,000
Goku (At worst) 1,500
Initial PD 1,400
Roshi (At best) 1,250



So already, at the 23rd Budokai, Tien is already nearly 15x stronger than Roshi! And this a fully trained Roshi. The story shows us that Jackie Chun quit because a new generation has come and he can go back to relaxing. The thought of Roshi maintaining his strength, let alone training to get stronger goes directly against the narrative.

At the 23rd Budokai it has been 3 years. When we get the infamous scouter reading from the Saiyan Saga, it has been a total of 8 years since Roshi quit and let the new generation pave the way. His 139 number in comparison to the group is the most egregious out of the bunch.

Roshi is simply a nothing. He was an ant compared to Piccolo Daimao and now all of the other powers have made it somewhere in the vicinity of this level. Thus, Roshi should be an ant to those like Yamcha and Krillen. Yet the scouter numbers do not show this.



That is what I consider Part 1. Bottom up, from Roshi up to the average powers, we have a major mistake, but hold on now, we have a second part, which is nearly just as bad.

Not only is there incredible spacing between Roshi and Krillen, the spacing between Krillen and Goku is fucking insane.



At the 23rd Budkai, we can use Tien as our guideline to the past powers. Tien is now strong enough to clown Goku/Piccolo Daimao levels. Not amazingly so, but Tien is clearly a healthy amount stronger. Yamcha and Krillen consider Goku's Weighted Speed to be insanely fast and they cannot even see Tien.

Goku then powers up and is able to move so fast Tien cannot see him. Then Tien acknowledges that Goku isn't fighting anywhere near his full power and then is further shocked by Shen's full power. Shen on the other hand realizes he has no chance against Piccolo even in his true body (Kami) and then gets captured. When he is released, he's even more amazed by Goku and Piccolo's astounding power and even though the two are beaten into the ground and look incredibly damaged and weak, they are still strong enough to a point where Kami cannot even hope to compete.

The power differences here are freaking astronomical.

Ballpark numbers, Krillen should be 10x stronger than Roshi and 10x weaker than Goku.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Farmer's PL alone is impossible lol. That's why PLs don't make sense and a waste of time.

 

[p123]

Yea seriously, being a 5 would make the Farmer a god in our world. Continues the running joke of the farmer being a badass haha.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Unless the farmer's PL was 000.5 then the PL list can still work.

 

[p123]

Yea. I have Kami at 20,000x stronger than the Farmer. Seems reasonable, much more reasonable than 20x.

 

[Cell]

You could always write pre-Raditz off as:

Early series: Actively improving physical strength
Mid series: Actively improving physical strength while passively/unknowingly improving Ki
Late series: Actively improving Ki (with this following on into post-Raditz)

...with scouters measuring Ki output... and everyone having natural access to Ki (though low unless trained).

 

[p123]

I think the author didn't put much thought into it. For me, author's narrative > author's numbers. That's what I've been going by the whole time.

 

[Void]

I think the author didn't put much thought into it. For me, author's narrative > author's numbers. That's what I've been going by the whole time.

Toriyama does state in an interview that the characters will hit their physical limits and will only get stronger through improving their ki capacity/usage.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

When you look at the manga overall, you can see that these numbers, just don't add up.

Let's go after the Roshi number right away.

Old Piccolo Daimao (Full Power) >> Old PD (Less than Half) >> Goku's Kamehameha > Goku >= Initial PD

Even if you don't think that Goku got a zenkai from recovering from Tambourine, Roshi should be a bit under Initial PD. PD's power up is tremendous, going from slightly below Goku to being able to perform one of the sickest tanks in the manga. He tanks the Kamehameha like nothing happened at all. There is a multi fold gap here for sure, let's keep it at 2x for a minimum right now. Then, Piccolo tells us, his power is not even half of his power. Then we go on to see he gets ridiculously stronger after he becomes young. Even at your absolute lowest, he should be at least 1.5x stronger than his old self. That is by the way, severely undercutting the power jump imo as well.
We know Super God Water Goku is a bit stronger than Young Piccolo. Then, Tien at the 23rd Budokai is above even that.


Tien 23rd Budokai 17,500
Super God Water Goku 15,000
Young Piccolo (At worst) 15,000
Old Piccolo 10,000
Old PD (Less than Half) 4,000
Goku's Kamehameha 2,000
Goku (At worst) 1,500
Initial PD 1,400
Roshi (At best) 1,250



So already, at the 23rd Budokai, Tien is already nearly 15x stronger than Roshi! And this a fully trained Roshi. The story shows us that Jackie Chun quit because a new generation has come and he can go back to relaxing. The thought of Roshi maintaining his strength, let alone training to get stronger goes directly against the narrative.

At the 23rd Budokai it has been 3 years. When we get the infamous scouter reading from the Saiyan Saga, it has been a total of 8 years since Roshi quit and let the new generation pave the way. His 139 number in comparison to the group is the most egregious out of the bunch.

Roshi is simply a nothing. He was an ant compared to Piccolo Daimao and now all of the other powers have made it somewhere in the vicinity of this level. Thus, Roshi should be an ant to those like Yamcha and Krillin. Yet the scouter numbers do not show this.



That is what I consider Part 1. Bottom up, from Roshi up to the average powers, we have a major mistake, but hold on now, we have a second part, which is nearly just as bad.

Not only is there incredible spacing between Roshi and Krillin, the spacing between Krillin and Goku is fucking insane.



At the 23rd Budkai, we can use Tien as our guideline to the past powers. Tien is now strong enough to clown Goku/Piccolo Daimao levels. Not amazingly so, but Tien is clearly a healthy amount stronger. Yamcha and Krillin consider Goku's Weighted Speed to be insanely fast and they cannot even see Tien.

Goku then powers up and is able to move so fast Tien cannot see him. Then Tien acknowledges that Goku isn't fighting anywhere near his full power and then is further shocked by Shen's full power. Shen on the other hand realizes he has no chance against Piccolo even in his true body (Kami) and then gets captured. When he is released, he's even more amazed by Goku and Piccolo's astounding power and even though the two are beaten into the ground and look incredibly damaged and weak, they are still strong enough to a point where Kami cannot even hope to compete.

The power differences here are freaking astronomical.

Ballpark numbers, Krillin should be 10x stronger than Roshi and 10x weaker than Goku.

The main reason they seem impossible is that none of you is willing to make any compromises. For instance...
The Piccolo that tanked KHH doesn't have to be the less than half suppression. Piccolo made that statement right after
ragdolling (but not one shotting) Goku. Also, up to that point, all statements about power useage had referred to effort.
So, i think what AT had in his mind when he said less than half was the power that ragdolled Goku, in other words, 40%-45%
Old Piccolo is about 1.2x-1.33x stronger than Goku. Maybe he had increased his ki to 70% or something (which is what he
tanked KHH with), but his effort was lower.

 

[p123]

Na, the author shows that less than half Piccolo is way stronger than Goku, Goku can't do anything to him and it's nowhere near his full power.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

Na, the author shows that less than half Piccolo is way stronger than Goku, Goku can't do anything to him and it's nowhere near his full power.

To me, it feels the author wanted to show that Piccolo was ragdolling Goku with less than half, considering he put the
statement right after the stomp. The tank was an indicator of what he can do with his full power.
But, as you would say, those are just feelings of mine.

 

[p123]

We see he needs to power up to reach his full power, his full power shortens his life span. I don't buy what you are selling for one second.

 

[Jeff Styles]

Yeah it is impossible with such low numbers and huge gaps. It doesn't help with the guidebooks putting numbers such as 22nd Budokai Kid Goku at 160 and young Piccolo Damino at 260.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

We see he needs to power up to reach his full power, his full power shortens his life span. I don't buy what you are selling for one second.

It doesn't have to be his 100%. It can be his 75%.

 

[p123]

What suggested he powered up? His offensive output matches what he was capable of defensively. We shouldn't attribute power ups unless suggested.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

What suggested he powered up? His offensive output matches what he was capable of defensively. We shouldn't attribute power ups unless suggested.

I'm saying he had powered up to 75%, but his effort was only 45%.

 

[p123]

Where is that suggested?

 

[withheldforprivacy]

Where is that suggested?

See? You're not willing to make any compromises. That's why scouters can't work.

 

[p123]

Yea, I don't agree with going directly against the narrative. Chuck the numbers and get something more in line with the story is the way to go imo.

 

[Victorious]

23rd Tenshihan is definitely a lot further ahead of FP Young PD than what you give him. Can't see Young PD being 86% of Ten at the 23rd...more like 70%.

Tenshinhan 23rd : 100
Weighted Goku 23rd power : 100
Weighted Goku 23rd speed : 75
Post God Water Goku : 75
FP Young Piccolo Daimao : 70