RAW POWER! Which is Stronger ?

[VampireWicked]

Me & someone else are having a nice calm discussion lol over which has more raw power.
SuperSaiyan Grade3 or FullPowered/Mastered SuperSaiyan ?

The general idea is which form is stronger like SuperSaiyan Grade3 Gohan vs FullPowered/Mastered SuperSaiyan Gohan.


And i feel this is something where more can join in on the conversation.

Oh & explain WHY you believe one is stronger than the other.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Grade 3 easily. MSSJ is never implied to be any stronger than regular SSJ, only better at conserving stamina. If we were to take Super into account, Grade 3 is slightly implied to be superior in raw strength to SS2 as well during Trunks' sparring session with Vegeta.

 

[VampireWicked]

Grade 3 easily. MSSJ is never implied to be any stronger than regular SSJ, only better at conserving stamina. If we were to take Super into account, Grade 3 is slightly implied to be superior in raw strength to SS2 as well during Trunks' sparring session with Vegeta.

How when FutureTrunks in Grade3 never threw a single physical or energy based attack against Vegeta.

Okay if was never implied then explain to me how the initial SuperSaiyan transformation would be sufficient against PerfectCell when SuperSaiyan Grade2 & Grade3 wasn't ?

 

[withheldforprivacy]

It's been a long time since i settled with the theory of Grade forms becoming less and
less effective as one increases his SSJ power, until they become useless. Unless of
course you count DBS nonsense.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

How when FutureTrunks in Grade3 never threw a single physical or energy based attack against Vegeta.

Vegeta simply thought Trunks was making the same mistake as against Cell. He'd be very suspicious of Trunks' actions if he sensed he'd reverted to a form where his Ki decreased from what it was prior.

Okay if was never implied then explain to me how the initial SuperSaiyan transformation would be sufficient against PerfectCell when SuperSaiyan Grade2 & Grade3 wasn't ?

Because both forms cause a decrease in speed, not so much for Grade 2 but by a vast amount for Grade 3, not to mention burn through Ki far faster than regular SSJ. Goku even made this much abundantly clear by revealing such through exposition when saying SSJ was overall the most balanced form.

 

[VampireWicked]

Vegeta simply thought Trunks was making the same mistake as against Cell. He'd be very suspicious of Trunks' actions if he sensed he'd reverted to a form where his Ki decreased from what it was prior.

How when Vegeta never saw FutureTrunks as a SuperSaiyan Grade3 fight PerfectCell.
But that's from Vegeta's perspective, i'm talking the perspective of FutureTrunks.

Why didn't FutureTrunks utilised the raw strength of Grade3 against Vegeta if the form is so powerful?

Because both forms cause a decrease in speed, not so much for Grade 2 but by a vast amount for Grade 3, not to mention burn through Ki far faster than regular SSJ. Goku even made this much abundantly clear by revealing such through exposition when saying SSJ was overall the most balanced form.
Top

Exactly, the most balanced form.
Not wouldn't that mean FullPowered/Mastered SuperSaiyan has access & total control of both speed & raw power ?

Evidence shows how ineffective Grade2 & Grade3 was against PerfectCell, whereas FullPowered/Mastered SuperSaiyan was much more successful in dropping PerfectCell's over all ki level.

It's been a long time since i settled with the theory of Grade forms becoming less and
less effective as one increases his SSJ power, until they become useless. Unless of
course you count DBS nonsense.

lol I know right.

 

[xenos5]

I think a healthy MSSJ Goku could've potentially killed a Cell Jr (Vegeta knew he was surpassed just from sensing half the power of MSSJ Goku when Goku powered up at Korin's tower).

Healthy Grade 2 SSJ Vegeta and Grade 3 SSJ Trunks lost to Cell Jrs.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

How when Vegeta never saw FutureTrunks as a SuperSaiyan Grade3 fight PerfectCell.
But that's from Vegeta's perspective, i'm talking the perspective of FutureTrunks.

Which is completely irrelevant. Going SS2, then going Grade 3 would be very suspicious to Vegeta if the latter were indeed weaker. Instead, all he notes is how slow the form is.

Why didn't FutureTrunks utilised the raw strength of Grade3 against Vegeta if the form is so powerful?

Assuming you're referring to his battle in the Cell Arc, he made it abundantly clear that he didn't want to damage his father's pride by surpassing him, hence why he only transformed after Cell KO'd him. If you're talking about his sparring session in Super, it's because the whole point of him using it was to catch Vegeta off guard by reverting to SS2. It's been made clear the form's useless when it can hit virtually nobody of relevance to the user.

Evidence shows how ineffective Grade2 & Grade3 was against PerfectCell, whereas FullPowered/Mastered SuperSaiyan was much more successful in dropping PerfectCell's over all ki level.

That's leaning on the idea of Goku and Vegeta/Trunks being on even ground in base for their Cell Games and Post-Rosat selves respectively, something that clearly isn't the case. It doesn't take a genius to tell that Cell Games Goku >> Post-2nd Rosat Vegeta/Trunks >> Post-1st Rosat Vegeta/Trunks.

 

[VampireWicked]

How when Vegeta never saw FutureTrunks as a SuperSaiyan Grade3 fight PerfectCell.
But that's from Vegeta's perspective, i'm talking the perspective of FutureTrunks.

Which is completely irrelevant. Going SS2, then going Grade 3 would be very suspicious to Vegeta if the latter were indeed weaker. Instead, all he notes is how slow the form is.

Why didn't FutureTrunks utilised the raw strength of Grade3 against Vegeta if the form is so powerful?

Assuming you're referring to his battle in the Cell Arc, he made it abundantly clear that he didn't want to damage his father's pride by surpassing him, hence why he only transformed after Cell KO'd him. If you're talking about his sparring session in Super, it's because the whole point of him using it was to catch Vegeta off guard by reverting to SS2. It's been made clear the form's useless when it can hit virtually nobody of relevance to the user.

Evidence shows how ineffective Grade2 & Grade3 was against PerfectCell, whereas FullPowered/Mastered SuperSaiyan was much more successful in dropping PerfectCell's over all ki level.

That's leaning on the idea of Goku and Vegeta/Trunks being on even ground in base for their Cell Games and Post-Rosat selves respectively, something that clearly isn't the case. It doesn't take a genius to tell that Cell Games Goku >> Post-2nd Rosat Vegeta/Trunks >> Post-1st Rosat Vegeta/Trunks.

Hang on a sec.
WhatIF it's a reversed Frieza transformation situation or better yet similar to Ultra-Instinct & x50 was the multiplier for the SuperSaiyan transformation period ?

Like
Initial SuperSaiyan 0.5
SuperSaiyan Grade2 x2
Grade3 2.5
FullPowered/Mastered x50


Say the Power Level scales & stats increase sure, but each Grade only utilised a percentage of the transformation multiplier, like incomplete Ultra-Instinct couldn't fully utilise the power.

Now once an understanding of how to manage Ki & stamina control was achieved, then FullPowered/Mastered was capable of utilising the full x50 SuperSaiyan transformation multiplier, similar to like Goku achieving Complete Ultra-Instinct & fully utilising its capabilities.

 

[ahill1]

Now once an understanding of how to manage Ki & stamina control was achieved, then FullPowered/Mastered was capable of utilising the full x50 SuperSaiyan transformation multiplier, similar to like Goku achieving Complete Ultra-Instinct & fully utilising its capabilities.

He ought to have accessed the 50x multiplier on Namek though, as he could outclass 100% Freeza, whereas his Kaioken x20 was only able to inflict superficial damage on 50% Freeza. So if anything, the 50% isn't just the multiplier of the mastered SSJ.

 

[Papasmurf]

FPSSJ is just grade 1 with minimized strain, Grade 3 is superior in power when the base forms are equal.

 

[VampireWicked]

Now once an understanding of how to manage Ki & stamina control was achieved, then FullPowered/Mastered was capable of utilising the full x50 SuperSaiyan transformation multiplier, similar to like Goku achieving Complete Ultra-Instinct & fully utilising its capabilities.

He ought to have accessed the 50x multiplier on Namek though, as he could outclass 100% Freeza, whereas his Kaioken x20 was only able to inflict superficial damage on 50% Freeza. So if anything, the 50% isn't just the multiplier of the mastered SSJ.

He did access the 50x SuperSaiyan multiplier on Namek, but at a lower Power Level then compared to the saga after.

The Grades are flawed forms of the SuperSaiyan transformation itself. They don't utilise the full x50 multiplier of the SuperSaiyan transformation.
They're buffed out but drain stamina & has poor Ki control so there's no full utilisation of the x50 transformation multiplier.

The initial Namek transformation there was no additional buff form to power, no additional strain on the body, no additional weight to manage.
It was a normal transformation.

The difference between Ultra-Instinct & Complete Ultra-Instinct is a perfect example for SuperSaiyan Grades & FullPowered/Mastered SuperSaiyan.

 

[ahill1]

Now once an understanding of how to manage Ki & stamina control was achieved, then FullPowered/Mastered was capable of utilising the full x50 SuperSaiyan transformation multiplier, similar to like Goku achieving Complete Ultra-Instinct & fully utilising its capabilities.

He ought to have accessed the 50x multiplier on Namek though, as he could outclass 100% Freeza, whereas his Kaioken x20 was only able to inflict superficial damage on 50% Freeza. So if anything, the 50% isn't just the multiplier of the mastered SSJ.

He did access the 50x SuperSaiyan multiplier on Namek, but at a lower Power Level then compared to the saga after.

The Grades are flawed forms of the SuperSaiyan transformation itself. They don't utilise the full x50 multiplier of the SuperSaiyan transformation.
They're buffed out but drain stamina & has poor Ki control so there's no full utilisation of the x50 transformation multiplier.

The initial Namek transformation there was no additional buff form to power, no additional strain on the body, no additional weight to manage.
It was a normal transformation.

The difference between Ultra-Instinct & Complete Ultra-Instinct is a perfect example for SuperSaiyan Grades & FullPowered/Mastered SuperSaiyan.

So what you are saying is that Goku managed to access the 50x multiplier in the Freeza saga but never did so again in subsequent sagas?

 

[VampireWicked]

He ought to have accessed the 50x multiplier on Namek though, as he could outclass 100% Freeza, whereas his Kaioken x20 was only able to inflict superficial damage on 50% Freeza. So if anything, the 50% isn't just the multiplier of the mastered SSJ.

He did access the 50x SuperSaiyan multiplier on Namek, but at a lower Power Level then compared to the saga after.

The Grades are flawed forms of the SuperSaiyan transformation itself. They don't utilise the full x50 multiplier of the SuperSaiyan transformation.
They're buffed out but drain stamina & has poor Ki control so there's no full utilisation of the x50 transformation multiplier.

The initial Namek transformation there was no additional buff form to power, no additional strain on the body, no additional weight to manage.
It was a normal transformation.

The difference between Ultra-Instinct & Complete Ultra-Instinct is a perfect example for SuperSaiyan Grades & FullPowered/Mastered SuperSaiyan.

So what you are saying is that Goku managed to access the 50x multiplier in the Freeza saga but never did so again in subsequent sagas?

No, i am saying Grade2 & Grade3 didn't fully utilise the x50 transformation multiplier of SuperSaiyan.

To be clear i'm also talking about the multiplier & not the Power Level. So of course the Power Level scale (increase) from point to point, but the transformation multipliers i believe remain the same.


Now The initial SuperSaiyan & FullPowered/Mastered did benefit from the x50 multiplier it's just that the initial SuperSaiyan transformation would've benefited from the x50 multiplier for a lesser time period as there were a certain amount of strain on the user new to the transformation.


The Grades however are much worse as they are unnatural enhancements of the transformation where the Ki flow is so poor that the body over compensates with increased muscle mass.

I think they may get 2x or 3x base, maybe even 20times to 30times, but not the full x50 multiplier as the FullPowered/Mastered SuperSaiyan transformation would.

I see the Grades as akin to the incomplete Ultra-Instinct transformation.
Yes they have the raw strength but it's not fully utilised like Complete Ultra-Instinct.

 

[ahill1]

Now The initial SuperSaiyan & FullPowered/Mastered did benefit from the x50 multiplier it's just that the initial SuperSaiyan transformation would've benefited from the x50 multiplier for a lesser time period as there were a certain amount of strain on the user new to the transformation. 

I sometimes like the idea of the full power SSJ granting the user a boost at least as big as the grade 2 one as a way to explain why Goku didn't use the grade 2 against Cell or why Vegeta and Trunks were just simple SSJs against the Cell Juniors. The Cell Juniors were just marginally stronger than Vegeta and Trunks, so if Vegeta underwent the same transformation he performed against Semi Cell, he sure as hell would take out one of them without problems. Maybe he didn't because he is already accessing such multiplier from the training of mastering the SSJs, as in, the mastered SSJ is already accessing all the power a grade 2 form could grant but not suffering from physical transformations like muscles swelling up and so on... *shrugs*.

I would still say that the grade 3 transformation (or power up, if you will) grants a significantly higher boost than the full power SSJ, who might be just as big as the grade 2 one to explain why Vegeta, Goku and Trunks didn't use it. Even though the grade 3 form grants you a tremendous boost, it kills your speed. All the power in the world won't do you any good if you can't hit the opponent, as said Goku.

 

[VampireWicked]

I sometimes like the idea of the full power SSJ granting the user a boost at least as big as the grade 2 one as a way to explain why Goku didn't use the grade 2 against Cell or why Vegeta and Trunks were just simple SSJs against the Cell Juniors. The Cell Juniors were just marginally stronger than Vegeta and Trunks, so if Vegeta underwent the same transformation he performed against Semi Cell, he sure as hell would take out one of them without problems. Maybe he didn't because he is already accessing such multiplier from the training of mastering the SSJs, as in, the mastered SSJ is already accessing all the power a grade 2 form could grant but not suffering from physical transformations like muscles swelling up and so on... *shrugs*.

Vegeta & FutureTrunks didn't achieve FullPowered/Mastered SuperSaiyan at that point against Cell Jrs.

That's why they & even Piccolo were able to hold their own but not defeat them.
Piccolo being at a lower Power Level & Vegeta & FutureTrunks unable to fully utilised the x50 multiplier.

I would still say that the grade 3 transformation (or power up, if you will) grants a significantly higher boost than the full power SSJ, who might be just as big as the grade 2 one to explain why Vegeta, Goku and Trunks didn't use it. Even though the grade 3 form grants you a tremendous boost, it kills your speed. All the power in the world won't do you any good if you can't hit the opponent, as said Goku.

True but That's if physical were the only form of attack.
They both have the capabilities to use energy based/Ki attacks & the Grades were never utilised in that way.

Now if they are supposedly superior in raw power then how come they were never used that way in every situation.

I believe because they aren't superior in raw power.
See out of however many DragonBall official guidebooks & author statements the transformation multipliers never changed.
The only times the transformation multipliers change are from fan logic.

There being no change in the official Super Exciting Guide books to account for the Grades, & that to me says the Grades never fully utilised the x50 multiplier.

 

[ahill1]

Vegeta & FutureTrunks didn't achieve FullPowered/Mastered SuperSaiyan at that point against Cell Jrs.

There's no reason they wouldn't be full power SSJs. Generally the aura is spiker when they just flash the SSJ:

In the next panel, as you can see, the aura already does resemble that Vegeta and Trunks had when SSJs.

Vegeta saw how smart Goku was to make the SSJ his natural form and get used to it, so it stands a reason he would take the same route of training considering he didn't flash the grade 2 transformation, which provides a boost compared to the SSJ.

That's why they & even Piccolo were able to hold their own but not defeat them. 
Piccolo being at a lower Power Level & Vegeta & FutureTrunks unable to fully utilised the x50 multiplier. 

Or... because Vegeta and Trunks' base were lower than Goku's. If their base is lower than Goku's base, then it stands a reason their SSJ would also be lower than Goku's SSJ, as the SSJ is a multiplication off of the base form. It doesn't have to be due to them not being FPSSJs.

PIC REVIEW: RAW POWER! WHICH IS STRONGER ?

Re: RAW POWER! Which is Stronger ?Quote VampireWicked

 by VampireWicked » 22 Mar 2018 13:48

ahill1 wrote: ↑

22 Mar 2018 05:43

I sometimes like the idea of the full power SSJ granting the user a boost at least as big as the grade 2 one as a way to explain why Goku didn't use the grade 2 against Cell or why Vegeta and Trunks were just simple SSJs against the Cell Juniors. The Cell Juniors were just marginally stronger than Vegeta and Trunks, so if Vegeta underwent the same transformation he performed against Semi Cell, he sure as hell would take out one of them without problems. Maybe he didn't because he is already accessing such multiplier from the training of mastering the SSJs, as in, the mastered SSJ is already accessing all the power a grade 2 form could grant but not suffering from physical transformations like muscles swelling up and so on... *shrugs*.


Vegeta & FutureTrunks didn't achieve FullPowered/Mastered SuperSaiyan at that point against Cell Jrs.

That's why they & even Piccolo were able to hold their own but not defeat them. 
Piccolo being at a lower Power Level & Vegeta & FutureTrunks unable to fully utilised the x50 multiplier. 

ahill1 wrote: ↑

22 Mar 2018 05:43

I would still say that the grade 3 transformation (or power up, if you will) grants a significantly higher boost than the full power SSJ, who might be just as big as the grade 2 one to explain why Vegeta, Goku and Trunks didn't use it. Even though the grade 3 form grants you a tremendous boost, it kills your speed. All the power in the world won't do you any good if you can't hit the opponent, as said Goku.


True but That's if physical were the only form of attack. 
They both have the capabilities to use energy based/Ki attacks & the Grades were never utilised in that way. 

Now if they are supposedly superior in raw power then how come they were never used that way in every situation. 

I believe because they aren't superior in raw power. 
See out of however many DragonBall official guidebooks & author statements the transformation multipliers never changed. 
The only times the transformation multipliers change are from fan logic.

The grade forms are stronger than the normal SSJ, as stated when Vegeta was battling Semi Perfect Cell. You could excuse Goku and co. not using the grade 2 form due to the FPSSJ being up there battle power wise, but there's no reason for the FPSSJ to be superior in raw power compared to the form Trunks flashed against Cell, because that's a flawed form. FPSSJ is a better, more effective form, but it doesn't mean its multiplier is bigger.

Again, they wouldn't be using such form due to its speed disadvantages. When Goku flashed such form in the RoSaT, he stated that the huge muscles kill the speed and that there's a heavy blow on their stamina, that is, those were the reasons for which he wouldn't make use of such transformation. He even implied it's a form that is simply way stronger than the one they'd make use of by stating "all the power in the world won't do any good if you can't hit the opponent", which means that the form's power isn't the issue, but the speed is.

SSJG3 is a very powerful form that can be even stronger, battle power wise, than the SSJ2, but they wouldn't be flashing it again due to the aforementioned disadvantages, which were enough to cement in their heads that it's a flawed form. Even Vegeta in DBS scholds Trunks for making use of such failure instead of calling him a fool due to possessing the SSJ2, which would likely be the case if SSJ2 was stronger than grade 3.

 

[VampireWicked]

There's no reason they wouldn't be full power SSJs. Generally the aura is spiker when they just flash the SSJ:

In the next panel, as you can see, the aura already does resemble that Vegeta and Trunks had when SSJs.

Vegeta saw how smart Goku was to make the SSJ his natural form and get used to it, so it stands a reason he would take the same route of training considering he didn't flash the grade 2 transformation, which provides a boost compared to the SSJ.

But you see, similar Aura yet slender muscular build.

Or... because Vegeta and Trunks' base were lower than Goku's. If their base is lower than Goku's base, then it stands a reason their SSJ would also be lower than Goku's SSJ, as the SSJ is a multiplication off of the base form. It doesn't have to be due to them not being FPSSJs.

When Goku got sick Vegeta as a SuperSaiyan was stronger. So scaling power wise at that point Vegeta's base was stronger.

The grade forms are stronger than the normal SSJ, as stated when Vegeta was battling Semi Perfect Cell. You could excuse Goku and co. not using the grade 2 form due to the FPSSJ being up there battle power wise, but there's no reason for the FPSSJ to be superior in raw power compared to the form Trunks flashed against Cell, because that's a flawed form. FPSSJ is a better, more effective form, but it doesn't mean its multiplier is bigger.

Oh yeah the Grades would be stronger then the initial SuperSaiyan transformation (Grade1) since they increase in Power Level.

Say like if we're using a scouter to read the Power Level, the Grades could've simply added an extra 25 to 50 thousands points to the Power Level.
But doesn't benefit from the full x50 multiplier & only accessed part of it, enough to be stronger then Grade1 but not enough to be x50.

Again, they wouldn't be using such form due to its speed disadvantages. When Goku flashed such form in the RoSaT, he stated that the huge muscles kill the speed and that there's a heavy blow on their stamina, that is, those were the reasons for which he wouldn't make use of such transformation. He even implied it's a form that is simply way stronger than the one they'd make use of by stating "all the power in the world won't do any good if you can't hit the opponent", which means that the form's power isn't the issue, but the speed is.

I absolutely agree with that, but it would also be pointless if there's only speed with no power to back you in combat. So both was needed.

SSJG3 is a very powerful form that can be even stronger, battle power wise, than the SSJ2, but they wouldn't be flashing it again due to the aforementioned disadvantages, which were enough to cement in their heads that it's a flawed form. Even Vegeta in DBS scholds Trunks for making use of such failure instead of calling him a fool due to possessing the SSJ2, which would likely be the case if SSJ2 was stronger than grade 3.

If that were true then Goku would not've trained Gohan towards AscendedSaiyan/SuperSaiyan 2.

AscendedSaiyan / SuperSaiyan 2 would not be a form beyond if it wasn't superior in every way as natural transformations are superior then the last.

 

[Victorious]

MSSJ is no more powerful than SSJ. Though it has much more stamina and less drain. Grade3 meanwhile is probably as powerful as SSJ2.

 

[ahill1]

But you see, similar Aura yet slender muscular build. 

That was just in that (and maybe some other) panels. In other panels Vegeta and Trunks were already considerably less bulky:

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

It's possible that their armor made them look considerably bulkier in some panels as well. Either that, or Akira Toriyama's art wasn't entirely consistent in those panels.

Anyway, even as FPSSJ, Goku doesn't look less bulk than he did as a simple SSJ:

Spoiler

His aura and psyque looked just about the same in those panels.

The grade 2 and 3 transformations are the ones whose traits are a bulkier psyque and sharper aura.

When Goku got sick Vegeta as a SuperSaiyan was stronger. So scaling power wise at that point Vegeta's base was stronger. 

That was before the RoSaT. There's no reason the same should apply to their post training selves. It just means that Goku's boost while in the RoSaT was way bigger than Vegeta's. According to the SEG, the "mastering the SSJ" route of training grants a more considerable boost to whoever is going through this route of training. But that doesn't mean its boost would be even remotely comparable to the Grade 3's one, it just means such route of training would be the more efficient one.

I absolutely agree with that, but it would also be pointless if there's only speed with no power to back you in combat. So both was needed.

Hence why Goku's full power SSJ should be right up there for him to stand a chance, since flashing the grade 3 transformation wouldn't do him any good due to its speed disadvantages. "All the power in the World won't do you any good if you can't hit the opponent". SSJ won't prevent you from getting your ass kicked if the opponent's power is way above yours, sure, but that still doesn't change the fact that flashing the grade 3 there would be simply useless. Cell, upon seeing how his natural power didn't match that of Gohan's, ascended to the Grade 3 level, and Trunks knew immeaditely he was commiting the same mistake to which he mocked Trunks earlier:

Spoiler

And Trunks, much like Goku and Cell earlier, was once again shedding light onto the fact that speed is the form's problem. It maximizes power, but it kills speed due to the excessive muscular mass:

Spoiler

And then the regular SSJ is best due to the lack of those disadvantages in which strength wasn't one of them. Goku says that they'd work on the SSJ, but not by maximizing its strength, but by getting rid of that instability and restless feeling, that is, they would work on the SSJ so they could feel as natural as possible when using that form, which was why Vegeta didn't notice the SSJ feeling when Goku and Gohan were transformed when they exited the RoSaT:

Spoiler

So that's why the SSJ Gohan and Goku were using was improved compared to the standard one. Maybe, just maybe its boost might be comparable to the grade 2 one to explain why they still didn't flash it as it doesn't suffer from the speed issues, but the FPSSJ isn't required to be as strong as the Grade 3 form when it was made clear such form wouldn't be used again due to its speed disadvantages.

If that were true then Goku would not've trained Gohan towards AscendedSaiyan/SuperSaiyan 2. 

I think the SSJ2 is like the correct way to utilize the SSJG3's power. Both are utilizing incredible power surpassing the standard SSJ, but in the SSJ2's case the speed complements the power output due to the lack of excessive muscle mass.