RAW POWER! Which is Stronger ?

[VampireWicked]

That was just in that (and maybe some other) panels. In other panels Vegeta and Trunks were already considerably less bulky:
[+] Spoiler
[+] Spoiler
[+] Spoiler
It's possible that their armor made them look considerably bulkier in some panels as well. Either that, or Akira Toriyama's art wasn't entirely consistent in those panels.

Anyway, even as FPSSJ, Goku doesn't look less bulk than he did as a simple SSJ:
[+] Spoiler
His aura and psyque looked just about the same in those panels.

The grade 2 and 3 transformations are the ones whose traits are a bulkier psyque and sharper aura.

1st So sorry for the late reply, i've had a very busy week.

Okay Ready lol.
1. I think it's an inconsistency with Akira Toriyama's art because FutureTrunks & Vegeta never achieved FullPowered/Mastered SuperSaiyan level otherwise they would've done equally if not better than Goku did against PerfectCell & that was not the case.

Anyway, even as FPSSJ, Goku doesn't look less bulk than he did as a simple SSJ:
[+] Spoiler
His aura and psyque looked just about the same in those panels.

The grade 2 and 3 transformations are the ones whose traits are a bulkier psyque and sharper aura.

FullPowered/Mastered SuperSaiyan is not going to be any different in appearance than the initial SuperSaiyan level Grade1 because it's suppose to keep a slim frame & have raw power.

Remember after Goku recovered from being sick & he went to see PerfectCell.
If there was no difference between Grade1 & FullPowered/Mastered SuperSaiyan then Goku & PerfectCell would've fought then & there but Goku said where he stood against PerfectCell at that point.

That was before the RoSaT. There's no reason the same should apply to their post training selves. It just means that Goku's boost while in the RoSaT was way bigger than Vegeta's. According to the SEG, the "mastering the SSJ" route of training grants a more considerable boost to whoever is going through this route of training. But that doesn't mean its boost would be even remotely comparable to the Grade 3's one, it just means such route of training would be the more efficient one.

I was acknowledging them before the Room Of Spirit & Time.
Of course Goku's boost would be larger in training in the Room Of Spirit & Time because Goku went further & achieved FullPowered/Mastered SuperSaiyan.

Vegeta only trained to Grade2, possibly even Grade3 & stopped as he feared going further would only increase muscle size even more.

Goku figured out how to achieve Grade4, & that's the boost. That 4th level he achieved.

Hence why Goku's full power SSJ should be right up there for him to stand a chance, since flashing the grade 3 transformation wouldn't do him any good due to its speed disadvantages. "All the power in the World won't do you any good if you can't hit the opponent". SSJ won't prevent you from getting your ass kicked if the opponent's power is way above yours, sure, but that still doesn't change the fact that flashing the grade 3 there would be simply useless. Cell, upon seeing how his natural power didn't match that of Gohan's, ascended to the Grade 3 level, and Trunks knew immeaditely he was commiting the same mistake to which he mocked Trunks earlier:

PerfectCell lost control & his Grade3 form couldn't take hits by AscendedSaiyan.
If Grade3 has superior power then it should have superior durability, that's how it works in the DragonBall Universe & that wasn't the case there.
Meaning Grade4 & AscendedSaiyan is superior in power to Grade3.

And Trunks, much like Goku and Cell earlier, was once again shedding light onto the fact that speed is the form's problem. It maximizes power, but it kills speed due to the excessive muscular mass:

I'm not disagreeing that Grade3 kills speed.
I am disagreeing that Grade4 is inferior to Grade3 in maximum power.

And then the regular SSJ is best due to the lack of those disadvantages in which strength wasn't one of them. Goku says that they'd work on the SSJ, but not by maximizing its strength, but by getting rid of that instability and restless feeling, that is, they would work on the SSJ so they could feel as natural as possible when using that form, which was why Vegeta didn't notice the SSJ feeling when Goku and Gohan were transformed when they exited the RoSaT:

Because of the Ki control.
By achieving Grade2, Grade3, & establishing control of Grade1, it all can be combined into Grade4.

Scaling dude.
Grade4 has the complete stability needed to focus all the raw power of Grade3 into it & utilise the slim agile build of Grade1.
Hence FullPowered/Mastered SuperSaiyan or Grade4 which made the previous Grades obsolete because it's the absolute best of both worlds.

I think the SSJ2 is like the correct way to utilize the SSJG3's power. Both are utilizing incredible power surpassing the standard SSJ, but in the SSJ2's case the speed complements the power output due to the lack of excessive muscle mass.

AscendedSaiyan re-introduced the anger & rage because FullPowered/Mastered SuperSaiyan dropped it.

 

[ahill1]

Okay Ready lol. 
1. I think it's an inconsistency with Akira Toriyama's art because FutureTrunks & Vegeta never achieved FullPowered/Mastered SuperSaiyan level

I am not saying they are FPSSJs due to the art, since as fas as I am aware the illustration of a full power SSJ isn't any different from the standard, non mastered SSJ. As I illustrated with the Goku vs #19's fight, Goku's physique looks about the same and so does his aura.

I think they are FPSSJs due to them not making use of their pumped up forms that they made use against Semi Cell. Goku stated he wouldn't go that route of training since the SSJ was best balanced but that he still wished to get rid of that instability and restless feeling the SSJ gave off, and Vegeta understood that, saying Goku trained in a way to make the standard SSJ his natural state:

So if Vegeta gave up using the grade forms and agreed that working on the SSJ is the best bet, then he being also a mastered SSJ in the Cell Games makes sense.

they would've done equally if not better than Goku did against PerfectCell & that was not the case.

Not necessarily, because since the SSJ is a multiplier off of their base state, if Vegeta's base is weaker than Goku's, then his full power SSJ will also be weaker than Goku's. Vegeta not being at Goku's level doesn't rectify his inability to use the mastered SSJ, it merely means he is just weaker than Goku in every state.

I was acknowledging them before the Room Of Spirit & Time. 
Of course Goku's boost would be larger in training in the Room Of Spirit & Time because Goku went further & achieved FullPowered/Mastered SuperSaiyan. 

Training as full power SSJs could add (at least according to the SEG) in how much power they gained, but that in itself doesn't mean its multiplier is bigger. That just means that the training itself provides a bigger jump in power to whoever is performing it. That could work as an in universe explanatiom for why Goku and Gohan ended up so above Vegeta and Trunks despite not making use of the transformations Vegeta and Trunks did besides the sometimes boring "plot" or due to Goku being the protagonist explanations. Numbers for better clarification:

SSJs not taking the FPSSJ-route when training


Goku : 10
--> SSJ : 500

-----> post training

Goku : 30
--> SSJ : 1,500
--> SSJG2 : 2,000

SSJs when taking the FPSSJ route of training

Goku : 10
--> SSJ : 500

-----> post training

Goku : 10
--> SSJ : 500

Goku : 100
--> SSJ : 5,000


In which case Goku post the mastered SSJ training would be stronger than a supposedly SSJG2 Goku who didn't take such route of training and not because of the FPSSJ multiplier being bigger, but simply due to such route of training providing a big jump in power compared to how strong he was before the training.

PerfectCell lost control & his Grade3 form couldn't take hits by AscendedSaiyan.

And Trunks knew that was a mistake due to its deficient speed, which shows the main problem inherent to the usage of the form is speed. Power isn't appointed as a problem because it's a very powerful form, that is, it's still there battle power-wise. Speed and to a less degree energy consumptions are the main problems. Therefore, the FPSSJ's boost doesn't have to be bigger than the G3's one, as its power wasn't regarded as a problem.

Scaling dude.
Grade4 has the complete stability needed to focus all the raw power of Grade3 into it & utilise the slim agile build of Grade1. 
Hence FullPowered/Mastered SuperSaiyan or Grade4 which made the previous Grades obsolete because it's the absolute best of both worlds. 

"Focus the raw power of grade 3" is totally conjecture on your end. Goku didn't state anything of the sort, he merely said that all in all the SSJ is better. Why? Because, again, it didn't suffer from the speed and stamina issues, which were the problems that made the grade 3 an obsolete form and were later quickly appointed by Cell. Goku stated that they should get rid of that instability and that therefore they would be as natural as possible in the state, and wouldn't need a gigantic effort to stay in it, as noticed by Tenshinhan. The FPSSJ state (it's basically the SSJ with no restless feeling as per Goku and everyone's words) utilizing the raw power of grade 3 isn't supported anywhere.

 

[VampireWicked]

I am not saying they are FPSSJs due to the art, since as fas as I am aware the illustration of a full power SSJ isn't any different from the standard, non mastered SSJ. As I illustrated with the Goku vs #19's fight, Goku's physique looks about the same and so does his aura.

I think they are FPSSJs due to them not making use of their pumped up forms that they made use against Semi Cell. Goku stated he wouldn't go that route of training since the SSJ was best balanced but that he still wished to get rid of that instability and restless feeling the SSJ gave off, and Vegeta understood that, saying Goku trained in a way to make the standard SSJ his natural state:

So if Vegeta gave up using the grade forms and agreed that working on the SSJ is the best bet, then he being also a mastered SSJ in the Cell Games makes sense.

YES Vegeta & FutureTrunks understood that HOWEVER neither FutureTrunks or Vegeta knew how Goku achieved FullPowered/Mastered SuperSaiyan.

To say they did & achieved that level is saying that not only did Vegeta reach Grade3, WHICH is still speculation & assumption.
BUT also at that point & time could also go FullPowered/Mastered SuperSaiyan.

Neither of which has ever been stated as absolute fact, least of all Vegeta reaching FullPowered/Mastered SuperSaiyan at that point in time.

Not necessarily, because since the SSJ is a multiplier off of their base state, if Vegeta's base is weaker than Goku's, then his full power SSJ will also be weaker than Goku's. Vegeta not being at Goku's level doesn't rectify his inability to use the mastered SSJ, it merely means he is just weaker than Goku in every state.

Vegeta as a SuperSaiyan was stronger than Goku in the Android Saga.
So Vegeta's base was not weaker than Goku, & even if it was Goku's focus was primarily on training Gohan.
That was the main reason of bringing Gohan in, to get him to reach SuperSaiyan, establish power & control & get him to unleash his hidden power.

Vegeta wasn't hindered by any of that & was fully free to focuse on training himself.
So if Vegeta reached FullPowered/Mastered SuperSaiyan in the same amount of time Goku did, without plot limitations Vegeta would be stronger.

Training as full power SSJs could add (at least according to the SEG) in how much power they gained, but that in itself doesn't mean its multiplier is bigger. That just means that the training itself provides a bigger jump in power to whoever is performing it. That could work as an in universe explanatiom for why Goku and Gohan ended up so above Vegeta and Trunks despite not making use of the transformations Vegeta and Trunks did besides the sometimes boring "plot" or due to Goku being the protagonist explanations. Numbers for better clarification:

Hmmmm PowerLevel wise YES.
The transformation multipliers aren't going to change, but the PowerLevel will.

Whatever PowerLevel Goku has a FullPowered/Mastered SuperSaiyan with be multiplied by the AscendedSaiyan transformation multiplier.


As It's the PowerLevels that scales & then is multiplied by the SuperSaiyan transformation.
Like this:

Base: PowerLevel 20 thousand transformation multiplier x50 Grade1: PowerLevel 1million

Base: PowerLevel 25thousand.....Grade2: PowerLevel 1million 200thousand

Base: PowerLevel 30thousand.....Grade3: PowerLevel 1million 500thousand

Base: PowerLevel 40thousand.....FullPowered/Mastered: PowerLevel 2million

It's not x50 for each Grade but x50 overall for SuperSaiyan itself.

And Trunks knew that was a mistake due to its deficient speed, which shows the main problem inherent to the usage of the form is speed. Power isn't appointed as a problem because it's a very powerful form, that is, it's still there battle power-wise. Speed and to a less degree energy consumptions are the main problems. Therefore, the FPSSJ's boost doesn't have to be bigger than the G3's one, as its power wasn't regarded as a problem.

It's not a matter of having to be, it just is.
Like saying SuperSaiyan hair has to be yellow, when it just is.

FullPowered/Mastered SuperSaiyan just has that power, speed, stamina control, Ki control. It's a given.

"Focus the raw power of grade 3" is totally conjecture on your end. Goku didn't state anything of the sort, he merely said that all in all the SSJ is better. Why? Because, again, it didn't suffer from the speed and stamina issues, which were the problems that made the grade 3 an obsolete form and were later quickly appointed by Cell. Goku stated that they should get rid of that instability and that therefore they would be as natural as possible in the state, and wouldn't need a gigantic effort to stay in it, as noticed by Tenshinhan. The FPSSJ state (it's basically the SSJ with no restless feeling as per Goku and everyone's words) utilizing the raw power of grade 3 isn't supported anywhere.
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It's conjecture ?

Okay think about how the DragonBall Universe works & then then think about how not being able to fully utilise the absolute raw power of Grade3 in FullPowered/Mastered SuperSaiyan sounds.

Then tell me how much is conjecture & how much Grade3 is completely inferior to FullPowered/Mastered SuperSaiyan.

Acknowledging Grade3's instability & acknowledging FullPowered/Mastered's stability only further proves it's mere conjecture FullPowered/Mastered has the absolute best of both worlds.

 

[ahill1]

YES Vegeta & FutureTrunks understood that HOWEVER neither FutureTrunks or Vegeta knew how Goku achieved FullPowered/Mastered SuperSaiyan.

They didn't know how Goku achieved that, but Vegeta was still regarded as a genius by Goku in more than one occasion, with Goku even insisting that Vegeta should have obtained the form surpassing the SSJ by now, so it's not far fetched to think he knew what route to take to master the SSJ. Vegeta saw how Goku was pretty natural with the form and that he trained to minimize the strains of such form, so at the height of his wisdom Vegeta managing to get that down wouldn't come down as a surprise.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Both instances Goku emphasized Vegeta's expertise in bringing the form beyond the SSJ under control, so him managing to master the SSJ wouldn't be a surprise. Whether Trunks made that is more debatable, but still I'd like to think that he did considering he didn't access the "beyond the SSJ" state against the Cell Juniors.

To say they did & achieved that level is saying that not only did Vegeta reach Grade3, WHICH is still speculation & assumption. 
BUT also at that point & time could also go FullPowered/Mastered SuperSaiyan.

According to Trunks, Vegeta could perform the Grade 3 transformation but chose not to since he knew about its disadvantages/drawbecks:

Chapter: 388 (DBZ 194), P2.3-4
Context: Trunks was shown the downside of Super Saiyan Grade III: its lack of speed.
Trunks: “I-I see, so that’s why father never performed this transformation…He knew this would happen…It’s just like Cell said…I-I’ve been such a fool…”

So Vegeta could perform such transformation, but he chose not to because he knew it would lead him nowhere.

Neither of which has ever been stated as absolute fact, least of all Vegeta reaching FullPowered/Mastered SuperSaiyan at that point in time. 

I am not saying it's an absolute fact, but it makes sense. Know what isn't an absolute fact? Vegeta being weaker than Goku solely due to the FPSSJ.

Vegeta as a SuperSaiyan was stronger than Goku in the Android Saga.
So Vegeta's base was not weaker than Goku, & even if it was Goku's focus was primarily on training Gohan. 
That was the main reason of bringing Gohan in, to get him to reach SuperSaiyan, establish power & control & get him to unleash his hidden power. 

Yep, in the androids saga. It doesn't have to be the same for their post RoSaT selves, considering both improved in their own way with different methods of training. So base Vegeta being above Goku's in the androids saga doesn't mean his base will also be above Goku's in the CGs. Repeating this over and over doesn't matter, because it's irrelevant.

Vegeta wasn't hindered by any of that & was fully free to focuse on training himself. 
So if Vegeta reached FullPowered/Mastered SuperSaiyan in the same amount of time Goku did, without plot limitations Vegeta would be stronger. 

Goku only aided Gohan in how to transform into a SSJ. Later Gohan was seen training alone while Goku was lying on the ground, on his own, trying to find a way to surpass the SSJ:

Spoiler

The fact that Goku is even surprised Gohan has progressed so fast supports the idea that he isn't constantly keeping an eye on Gohan, who has been shaping his strength on his own way.

Goku even stated that Gohan would be a burden to him initially, but that once he attained SSJ, he'd come in handy as a training partner:

Chapter: 377 (DBZ 183), P8.3-5
Context: as Goku and Gohan start training in the Room of Spirit and Time
Gohan: “Dad, am I going to get in the way of your training?”
Goku: “At first, yeah. But once you’re able to become a Super Saiyan, you’ll really come in handy as a training partner, Gohan. That’s my ideal, anyway. Obviously I intend to obtain power surpassing Super Saiyan. I want to be stronger than anyone, after all. But Gohan, I intend for you to even further surpass me.”

So Gohan really didn't get that much in the way of Goku's training. Besides, Trunks even states Vegeta has obtained the power surpassing the SSJ in the three first months of training, so there's nothing preventing him from staying such time meditating on his own to get it down, like Goku. So that proves nothing, really.

As It's the PowerLevels that scales & then is multiplied by the SuperSaiyan transformation. 
Like this:

Base: PowerLevel 20 thousand transformation multiplier x50 Grade1: PowerLevel 1million 

Base: PowerLevel 25thousand.....Grade2: PowerLevel 1million 200thousand 

Base: PowerLevel 30thousand.....Grade3: PowerLevel 1million 500thousand 

Base: PowerLevel 40thousand.....FullPowered/Mastered: PowerLevel 2million 

It's not x50 for each Grade but x50 overall for SuperSaiyan itself.

I don't agree, I think it's a certain multiplier (depending on your interpretation) the base state for SSJ, and considerably more for the Grade 2 transformation, but still a bit below the SSJ2's amplification. And then Goku realized that the SSJ is the best combat state mainly due to the burden the Grade 2 and 3 transformations subjects the body, and that working on the SSJ by eliminating its instability would be better. So the FPSSJ would be basically a SSJ with no strains, a SSJ in which Goku could operate in an everyday level. Maybe I could push its multiplier up to on par with the grade 2 transformation as a way to make the abandon of such form less of a shitty writing, but more than that is uncalled for.

FullPowered/Mastered SuperSaiyan just has that power, speed, stamina control, Ki control. It's a given. 

No, FPSSJ is a SSJ with no restless feeling. THAT'S a given. Once again, Goku stated that the SSJ is better because it didn't suffer from the already mentioned disadvantages and that working on its weak spot -- its restless feeling -- would be the ideal thing, and Vegeta understood Goku's point on operating with the SSJ as his best combat state and working on its instability, and much like Goku hasn't made use of the grade forms anymore. All laid out there black and white for us. There's no way around that.

Then tell me how much is conjecture & how much Grade3 is completely inferior to FullPowered/Mastered SuperSaiyan.

It's a better form because it doesn't fuck up its speed with its big ass muscles. It's a better form because it doesn't eat stamina at an excessive amount. It's NOT a better form for possessing greater strength/multiplier, which wasn't stated. The chapter in which Trunks made use of such form was even called advantages and disadvantages... because the power such form (Grade 3) grants could be looked as an advantage, but everything else is a disadvantage. Goku stated all the power in the World won't do him any good if the speed doesn't complement the power. Power is something the Grade 3 state is full of... but the FPSSJ is a more efficient form. If the standard SSJ was already labeled by Goku as a better form, then there's no reason a SSJ without the restless feeling wouldn't be. It still doesn't mean it's a stronger form.

 

[VampireWicked]

They didn't know how Goku achieved that, but Vegeta was still regarded as a genius by Goku in more than one occasion, with Goku even insisting that Vegeta should have obtained the form surpassing the SSJ by now, so it's not far fetched to think he knew what route to take to master the SSJ. Vegeta saw how Goku was pretty natural with the form and that he trained to minimize the strains of such form, so at the height of his wisdom Vegeta managing to get that down wouldn't come down as a surprise.

What are you talking about.
Vegeta, FutureTrunks, Piccolo, Krillin, & whomever was there to witness Goku & Gohan walk out of the RoomOfSpirit&Time as SuperSaiyans saw that they have achieved complete control of the SuperSaiyan level.

Just because Vegeta etc saw they have achieved complete control over the SuperSaiyan level does not mean Vegeta or FutureTrunks would manage to reach that level themselves.
That would be pure conjecture.

Both instances Goku emphasized Vegeta's expertise in bringing the form beyond the SSJ under control, so him managing to master the SSJ wouldn't be a surprise. Whether Trunks made that is more debatable, but still I'd like to think that he did considering he didn't access the "beyond the SSJ" state against the Cell Juniors.

Again Vegeta & FutureTrunks never achieved FullPowered/Mastered at that point.

In the anime only, the Super Saiyan Second Grade form seemed to re-appear when Vegeta and Future Trunks battled the Cell Juniors (in the manga Vegeta and Future Trunks were regular Super Saiyans, but in the anime they appeared to have enlarged muscles at several points). Unfortunately, its power was only sufficient to fight on par with the miniature clones for a short time.

According to Trunks, Vegeta could perform the Grade 3 transformation but chose not to since he knew about its disadvantages/drawbecks:

Chapter: 388 (DBZ 194), P2.3-4
Context: Trunks was shown the downside of Super Saiyan Grade III: its lack of speed.
Trunks: “I-I see, so that’s why father never performed this transformation…He knew this would happen…It’s just like Cell said…I-I’ve been such a fool…”

So Vegeta could perform such transformation, but he chose not to because he knew it would lead him nowhere.

That's fine i can give you that, Vegeta achieved Grade3.
He just never transformed into Grade3 & it was said by FutureTrunks but never seen.

I am not saying it's an absolute fact, but it makes sense. Know what isn't an absolute fact? Vegeta being weaker than Goku solely due to the FPSSJ.

No, FPSSJ is a SSJ with no restless feeling. THAT'S a given. Once again, Goku stated that the SSJ is better because it didn't suffer from the already mentioned disadvantages and that working on its weak spot -- its restless feeling -- would be the ideal thing, and Vegeta understood Goku's point on operating with the SSJ as his best combat state and working on its instability, and much like Goku hasn't made use of the grade forms anymore. All laid out there black and white for us. There's no way around that.

It's a better form because it doesn't fuck up its speed with its big ass muscles. It's a better form because it doesn't eat stamina at an excessive amount. It's NOT a better form for possessing greater strength/multiplier, which wasn't stated. The chapter in which Trunks made use of such form was even called advantages and disadvantages... because the power such form (Grade 3) grants could be looked as an advantage, but everything else is a disadvantage. Goku stated all the power in the World won't do him any good if the speed doesn't complement the power. Power is something the Grade 3 state is full of... but the FPSSJ is a more efficient form. If the standard SSJ was already labeled by Goku as a better form, then there's no reason a SSJ without the restless feeling wouldn't be. It still doesn't mean it's a stronger form.
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Sure it would make sense IF Vegeta reached FullPowered/Mastered but he didn't because there's no evidence he or FutureTrunks ever did at that point.

I'm not denying FullPowered/Mastered has no restlessness, but FullPowered/Mastered means all 100%
Speed, strength, control, with little to no drawbacks. Goku's state never excluded power.


It is fact because it would not've been stated or coined as Super Saiyan Full Power if it did not utilise 100% power.

Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. After the fight with Beerus, Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more.

There is no reason not to see FullPowered/Mastered was not stronger then the Grades other than fanbased assumptions based on muscle size.

Yep, in the androids saga. It doesn't have to be the same for their post RoSaT selves, considering both improved in their own way with different methods of training. So base Vegeta being above Goku's in the androids saga doesn't mean his base will also be above Goku's in the CGs. Repeating this over and over doesn't matter, because it's irrelevant.

That's what i said.
Going in the RoomOfSpirit&Time Vegeta was stronger then Goku.
Coming out Goku became stronger due to exploring a different method than Vegeta.

So essentially there's no reason to believe Vegeta discovered that same method.

IF Both Vegeta & Goku use the exact same method, then Vegeta would've ended up stronger.

Goku only aided Gohan in how to transform into a SSJ. Later Gohan was seen training alone while Goku was lying on the ground, on his own, trying to find a way to surpass the SSJ:
[+] Spoiler
The fact that Goku is even surprised Gohan has progressed so fast supports the idea that he isn't constantly keeping an eye on Gohan, who has been shaping his strength on his own way.

Goku even stated that Gohan would be a burden to him initially, but that once he attained SSJ, he'd come in handy as a training partner:

Chapter: 377 (DBZ 183), P8.3-5
Context: as Goku and Gohan start training in the Room of Spirit and Time
Gohan: “Dad, am I going to get in the way of your training?”
Goku: “At first, yeah. But once you’re able to become a Super Saiyan, you’ll really come in handy as a training partner, Gohan. That’s my ideal, anyway. Obviously I intend to obtain power surpassing Super Saiyan. I want to be stronger than anyone, after all. But Gohan, I intend for you to even further surpass me.”

"But Gohan, I intend for you to even further surpass me."
Meaning training Gohan was Goku's primary focus.
That time spent on getting Gohan to SuperSaiyan, getting Gohan to release his power.
Wasn't time Goku was training himself to the fullest.

So Gohan really didn't get that much in the way of Goku's training. Besides, Trunks even states Vegeta has obtained the power surpassing the SSJ in the three first months of training, so there's nothing preventing him from staying such time meditating on his own to get it down, like Goku. So that proves nothing, really.

Remember different methods of training.
What Vegeta achieved in the first 3 months doesn't necessarily mean Goku achieved the same thing especially when training Gohan.

I don't agree, I think it's a certain multiplier (depending on your interpretation) the base state for SSJ, and considerably more for the Grade 2 transformation, but still a bit below the SSJ2's amplification. And then Goku realized that the SSJ is the best combat state mainly due to the burden the Grade 2 and 3 transformations subjects the body, and that working on the SSJ by eliminating its instability would be better. So the FPSSJ would be basically a SSJ with no strains, a SSJ in which Goku could operate in an everyday level. Maybe I could push its multiplier up to on par with the grade 2 transformation as a way to make the abandon of such form less of a shitty writing, but more than that is uncalled for.

That's fine you don't have to agree, but there's never been multipliers introduced for the individual Grades in any official guidebooks or author statements.

So individual Grade multipliers are only fan made assumptions.

 

[ahill1]

What are you talking about. 
Vegeta, FutureTrunks, Piccolo, Krillin, & whomever was there to witness Goku & Gohan walk out of the RoomOfSpirit&Time as SuperSaiyans saw that they have achieved complete control of the SuperSaiyan level. 

Just because Vegeta etc saw they have achieved complete control over the SuperSaiyan level does not mean Vegeta or FutureTrunks would manage to reach that level themselves. 
That would be pure conjecture. 

What I am talking about is clear and easy to understand. You pretty much just repeated yourself here. It doesn't necessarily mean they'd achieve that, but considering Vegeta's expertise was emphasized by Goku more than one time, the idea of him accessing more or less the same level of mastery Goku had over the SSJs has merit.

Even if Vegeta and Trunks didn't achieve the FPSSJ (this isn't even the main point of the discussion) it just adds fuel to the thought of the FPSSJ's multiplier not differing from the standard SSJ's ones, since Vegeta, even when not making use of the mastery SSJ Goku and Gohan did, still opted not to use the 'steroid' forms, which means he saw the standard SSJ as simply a better form than them. So the idea of the FPSSJ's multiplier differing that much from the SSJ's one to the point of being even bigger than the grade 3's one is shaky at best.

Again Vegeta & FutureTrunks never achieved FullPowered/Mastered at that point.

Which you can't be sure; but I don't know whether you have realized it, but you are even defeating the point for the FPSSJ's multiplier being bigger than the SSJ's one by arguing it. So good job.

In the anime only, the Super Saiyan Second Grade form seemed to re-appear when Vegeta and Future Trunks battled the Cell Juniors (in the manga Vegeta and Future Trunks were regular Super Saiyans, but in the anime they appeared to have enlarged muscles at several points). Unfortunately, its power was only sufficient to fight on par with the miniature clones for a short time. 

The anime is irrelevant since we know they were simple SSJs in the manga.

Sure it would make sense IF Vegeta reached FullPowered/Mastered but he didn't because there's no evidence he or FutureTrunks ever did at that point. 

Ok, then there's no evidence for the FPSSJ's multiplier being bigger than the SSJ's one despite unsupported speculation. I can live with that. I was even lending credence to the FPSSJ's multiplier being at least on par with the grade 2's one by arguing Vegeta was a FPSSJ there. Now that you are so sure he didn't, then we can easily operate under the belief that the FPSSJ's amplification is no bigger than the SSJ's one. Done and done.

There is no reason not to see FullPowered/Mastered was not stronger then the Grades other than fanbased assumptions based on muscle size.

Nope, what there's no reason to believe is that the FPSSJ's multiplier is stronger than the standard SSJ's one when all Goku said was that he -- alongside Gohan -- would work to get rid of that instability, that restless feeling. What Akira Toriyama stated proves nothing, even moreso when Goku and Vegeta still made use of the SSJ2 -- and Goku the SSJ3 -- in subsequent events.

That's what i said. 
Going in the RoomOfSpirit&Time Vegeta was stronger then Goku. 
Coming out Goku became stronger due to exploring a different method than Vegeta. 

That could serve as an in universe explanation, as in, such method of training provided a bigger jump in power. It doesn't have to mean the FPSSJ's multiplier is bigger, no. Look again at my numbers displayed above.

IF Both Vegeta & Goku use the exact same method, then Vegeta would've ended up stronger. 

Not if his base was still weaker. And no, his base being stronger pre RoSaT means little. Both trained afterwards, so the relationship between their bases doesn't have to be kept intact.

Meaning training Gohan was Goku's primary focus. 
That time spent on getting Gohan to SuperSaiyan, getting Gohan to release his power. 
Wasn't time Goku was training himself to the fullest.

That doesn't mean he'd be dragging his training so he could make Gohan way stronger than him. Gohan is already aware about the foundations of the chi and how to utilize it due to his training with Piccolo, and that was the kind of training in which Piccolo would have to take his time to teach Gohan the basics. Goku doesn't have to do the same, and he even stated his son would be a powerful asset once he became a SSJ, that is, he'd be a good sparring partner. So Gohan more helped than dragged Goku down.

Remember different methods of training. 
What Vegeta achieved in the first 3 months doesn't necessarily mean Goku achieved the same thing especially when training Gohan. 

I was focusing specifically on the time it took Vegeta to achieve SSJG2. It seems the events went down like this:

Vegeta's case:

--> Took 3 months meditating so he could surpass the SSJ*;
--> Achieved SSJG2, but not satisfied resumed his training so he could strengthen his SSJG2

Goku's case

--> Took some unknown time to achieve Grade 2 and Grade 3;
--> Sparred with Gohan while both were in SSJs


So really not much of a difference besides Goku and Gohan staying constantly in SSJ when sparring, which could serve as an explanation for their bigger jump in power, although that still doesn't mean the multiplier itself is bigger. Period.


* I know that in Super Vegeta was seemingly sparring with Trunks when he achieved the Grade 2, but considering there's no such scene in the manga, it could be a TOEI-only scene, that is, with no authority from Toriyama. Since Vegeta was initially meditating in the loniless in a rocky environment, trying to figure a way to surpass the SSJ, it makes sense he'd continue meditating there in the RoSaT -- like Goku -- and then, afterwards, spar with Trunks.

That's fine you don't have to agree, but there's never been multipliers introduced for the individual Grades in any official guidebooks or author statements. 

I didn't say there were official Grade's multipliers introducced, I am just saying they are indeed stronger the standard SSJ by an unknown amount, although I believe -- at least the Grade 2's one -- to be below 2x SSJ as that was apparently the SSJ2's multiplier.

 

[VampireWicked]

Stuff

Okay lets step back because you aren't understanding me at all.

1. The overall multiplier for SuperSaiyan itself i do not agree or ever said it changes from 50x.
So it's not about Grade4 having a bigger multiplier but a higher PowerLevel.

Grade2, Grade3 as they aren't transformations as they are simply unstable buffs, nothing more.
So there would be no additional multiplier for either Grade2 or Grade3 as they are still within the SuperSaiyan transformation itself.

Remember the example i gave you.
Base: PowerLevel 20 thousand transformation multiplier x50 Grade1: PowerLevel 1million 

Base: PowerLevel 25thousand.....Grade2: PowerLevel 1million 200thousand 

Base: PowerLevel 30thousand.....Grade3: PowerLevel 1million 500thousand 

Base: PowerLevel 40thousand.....FullPowered/Mastered: PowerLevel 2million 

No additional multipliers for each Grade.

Grade1 & Grade4 is the normal natural SuperSaiyan transformation.

Grade1, Grade2, Grade3, places tremendous strain on the user with Grade2 & Grade3 being completely unstable. So unstable that Ki control was difficult to the point the muscles expanded & the user became heavier & slower also burning up stamina.

Grade4 stabilised everything from Ki control to stamina reduction, while utilising 100% power & speed in a normal natural body size.

So of course acknowledgement of speed & stamina between the Grades & Grade4 was made because that was the most obvious.

But the PowerLevel increases from Grade to Grade while still remaining 50x base.

2. Vegeta having the same level of mastery of Grade4 then Goku is possible but never proven, so it would be purely opinion to say that Vegeta or FutureTrunks did ever achieve Grade4.

An argument can be made they did but it's pure speculation when the appearance for Grade1 & Grade4 look similar.


3. Akira Toriyama's statements prove everything since he is the creator of the series.
Akira Toriyama, guidebooks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Fan based logic.
If Akira Toriyama & official guidebooks coins something as Full Power as it is drawn out to its limits. Then that's what it is.


4. Training one transformation does not exclude other forms from any gain in the Dragon Ball Universe.
Each form scales accordingly.

So if Vegeta as a SuperSaiyan was stronger than Goku before the Room of Spirit and Time & they both did exactly the same thing down to the detail, then Vegeta will remain with the edge in power.
But different training methods resulted in different levels.


5. Each moment Goku applied towards Gohan only, was less time spent on himself.

 

[ahill1]

1. The overall multiplier for SuperSaiyan itself i do not agree or ever said it changes from 50x.
So it's not about Grade4 having a bigger multiplier but a higher PowerLevel.

Then I am in agreement with you. I haven't been saying that Trunks' grade 3 is stronger than Goku FPSSJ (Cell Games), I am saying that were two fighters (or the same fighter, wtv) performing both transformations, then he'd be stronger -- battle power-wise -- with the Grade 3 state, but slower and with worse stamina, and would likely lose in a fight, or at least not be able to hit him.

Base: PowerLevel 20 thousand transformation multiplier x50 Grade1: PowerLevel 1million

Base: PowerLevel 25thousand.....Grade2: PowerLevel 1million 200thousand

Base: PowerLevel 30thousand.....Grade3: PowerLevel 1million 500thousand

Base: PowerLevel 40thousand.....FullPowered/Mastered: PowerLevel 2million

No additional multipliers for each Grade.

Again, no, I don't agree that FPSSJ's multiplier is bigger. That's not stated and has at most some loosy (even moreso with Vegeta and Trunks not being FPSSJs) implications to back it up. I think its multiplier is the same as the Grade 1's multiplier (AT MOST the same as the Grade 2's... more than that is uncalled for), but with no restless feeling. Basically that. I am not misunderstanding you, I knew that was your point.

Grade1, Grade2, Grade3, places tremendous strain on the user with Grade2 & Grade3 being completely unstable. So unstable that Ki control was difficult to the point the muscles expanded & the user became heavier & slower also burning up stamina.

Okay, nothing to complain here. Both grade states are basically accessing power beyond the SSJ in a strenful way, whereas the SSJ was labeled by Goku -- and understood by Vegeta -- as the best combat state and then aprimored.

2. Vegeta having the same level of mastery of Grade4 then Goku is possible but never proven, so it would be purely opinion to say that Vegeta or FutureTrunks did ever achieve Grade4.

An argument can be made they did but it's pure speculation when the appearance for Grade1 & Grade4 look similar.

Okay, and it would be pure opinion to say the FPSSJ's multiplier is bigger than the Grade 3's one (heck, even bigger than the SSJ's one), as Vegeta understood the standard SSJ was a better form and didn't flash the Grade state in the Cell Games.

Akira Toriyama's statements prove everything since he is the creator of the series.

I am not questioning Akira Toriyama's authority, but this statement's relation to what's being discussed. "After the fight with Beerus Goku realized mastering his SSJ would sap more strength"... okay? Why is Goku realizing this now, after the battle with Beerus, if sapping more strength was also something that happened post RoSaT? Nevermind the fact that he flashed the SSJ against Trunks, had to make use of his SSJ3 when Trunks' SSJ2 proved to be too much for him and turned SSJ3 against #17 as well when his SSJ's power was not enough to deal with 17. It was a tongue in cheek statement, apparently, and doesn't mean much due to the latter, as it was a realization post the battle with Beerus. I even entertained the idea of the FPSSJ's multiplier matching that of the Grade 2's but by the 1000th time, more than that is uncalled for.

So if Vegeta as a SuperSaiyan was stronger than Goku before the Room of Spirit and Time & they both did exactly the same thing down to the detail, then Vegeta will remain with the edge in power.
But different training methods resulted in different levels.

If they were the same person, with the same traits, the same specialties, the same uniqueness, then sure. Not just that, but Goku's route of training was differently -- he sparred with Gohan with the SSJ constantly on -- and just turned it off to sleep. So THAT could have added in his gains in comparison to Vegeta's, and by "adding" I mean in the jump his base -- and consequently SSJ -- suffered, not by the FPSSJ's multiplier being bigger, all which I have already stated.

Each moment Goku applied towards Gohan only, was less time spent on himself.

And still he insisted Gohan would come in handy as a training partner once he attained SSJ. Training with Gohan was effective, and it seems turning Gohan into a SSJ was the time spent applying on Gohan, as Goku stated Gohan would be a burden to his training when he WASN'T a SSJ.

 

[VampireWicked]

Then I am in agreement with you. I haven't been saying that Trunks' grade 3 is stronger than Goku FPSSJ (Cell Games), I am saying that were two fighters (or the same fighter, wtv) performing both transformations, then he'd be stronger -- battle power-wise -- with the Grade 3 state, but slower and with worse stamina, and would likely lose in a fight, or at least not be able to hit him.

There's no reason Grade4 wouldn't be stronger.
If two fighters equal power with the same number of transformations fought but FighterA uses Grade3 & FighterB uses Grade4, then Grade4 would be stronger due to having 100% access of his or her ki.
Hence the name coined by the daizenshuu Super Saiyan Full Power

Again, no, I don't agree that FPSSJ's multiplier is bigger. That's not stated and has at most some loosy (even moreso with Vegeta and Trunks not being FPSSJs) implications to back it up. I think its multiplier is the same as the Grade 1's multiplier (AT MOST the same as the Grade 2's... more than that is uncalled for), but with no restless feeling. Basically that. I am not misunderstanding you, I knew that was your point.

Okay, and it would be pure opinion to say the FPSSJ's multiplier is bigger than the Grade 3's one (heck, even bigger than the SSJ's one), as Vegeta understood the standard SSJ was a better form and didn't flash the Grade state in the Cell Games.

Again it's not multiplier i speak of as Grade1, Grade2, Grade3, & Grade4 are under the same x50 transformation multiplier.

It's PowerLevel i speak of.
Remember PowerLevel, the number seen in a scouter........"It's Over 9000"
That.

Grade4's PowerLevel would be higher than Grade3's.

Okay, nothing to complain here. Both grade states are basically accessing power beyond the SSJ in a strenful way, whereas the SSJ was labeled by Goku -- and understood by Vegeta -- as the best combat state and then aprimored.

Yes but that's why the muscles for Grade2 & Grade3 are so expanded.
The overflowing Ki from lacking control so it isn't utilising the power to the fullest.

Grade4 has 100% access & control allowing power to be fully utilised.

I am not questioning Akira Toriyama's authority, but this statement's relation to what's being discussed. "After the fight with Beerus Goku realized mastering his SSJ would sap more strength"... okay? Why is Goku realizing this now, after the battle with Beerus, if sapping more strength was also something that happened post RoSaT? Nevermind the fact that he flashed the SSJ against Trunks, had to make use of his SSJ3 when Trunks' SSJ2 proved to be too much for him and turned SSJ3 against #17 as well when his SSJ's power was not enough to deal with 17. It was a tongue in cheek statement, apparently, and doesn't mean much due to the latter, as it was a realization post the battle with Beerus. I even entertained the idea of the FPSSJ's multiplier matching that of the Grade 2's but by the 1000th time, more than that is uncalled for.

Probably something to do with GodKi, i'm not sure.

If they were the same person, with the same traits, the same specialties, the same uniqueness, then sure. Not just that, but Goku's route of training was differently -- he sparred with Gohan with the SSJ constantly on -- and just turned it off to sleep. So THAT could have added in his gains in comparison to Vegeta's, and by "adding" I mean in the jump his base -- and consequently SSJ -- suffered, not by the FPSSJ's multiplier being bigger, all which I have already stated.

PowerLevel would be higher.

And still he insisted Gohan would come in handy as a training partner once he attained SSJ. Training with Gohan was effective, and it seems turning Gohan into a SSJ was the time spent applying on Gohan, as Goku stated Gohan would be a burden to his training when he WASN'T a SSJ.

And that time up until Gohan was able to go SuperSaiyan could've been even more time Goku used to go even further.

 

[ahill1]

There's no reason Grade4 wouldn't be stronger. 

There's no reason it would be stronger, which you have yet to prove without doing a shitload of assumptions.

If two fighters equal power with the same number of transformations fought but FighterA uses Grade3 & FighterB uses Grade4, then Grade4 would be stronger due to having 100% access of his or her ki. 

No, fighter A would be stronger -- chi level output wise -- but way slower and consequently would end up losing the fight. He'd be more effective in the battle, not stronger.

Hence the name coined by the daizenshuu Super Saiyan Full Power 

The full power term doesn't have to be alluding to a higher multiplier, it might be basically meaning a perfected/more effective SSJ. Or, for all we know, might be merely referring to Goku not being at full power until fighting Cell, hence clarifying that the Goku who faced Cell is, now, a full power SSJ. The "higher multiplier" doesn't inherently come with the usage of the term.

Again it's not multiplier i speak of as Grade1, Grade2, Grade3, & Grade4 are under the same x50 transformation multiplier. 

Use whatever multiplier you wanna use. Full power SSJ doesn't have to be stronger than the Grade 2's battle power wise, let alone the Grade 3 transformation. I use a 10x multiplier for the post Freeza saga SSJ, and think the FPSSJ is -- like the standard one -- also a 10x boost off of the base state.

Grade4's PowerLevel would be higher than Grade3's. 

If both were performed by the same Saiyajin or by different Saiyajins with the same power in their base forms, then no, it wouldn't.

Grade4 has 100% access & control allowing power to be fully utilised. 

FPSSJ has the access to the standard SSJ's power, not access to the Grade states. Again, both Goku and Vegeta regarded the standard SSJ as the best combat state, and the former at least decided to work on its only disadvantage -- the instability. The muscles don't appear as excessive because they aren't accessing those kind of powers anymore -- not because they have mastered those powers. The FPSSJ is simply the old SSJ with no restless feeling, which was what was implied in the RoSaT sequence. Goku regarded the SSJ as his best combat state and said they'd perfect it so they'd could operate in the form under less stress and with a more casual and natural outlook. That is the gist of it, and Vegeta apparently understood Goku's points in using the standard SSJ as his best combat state and decided not to flash those forms he used against Semi Cell again.

And that time up until Gohan was able to go SuperSaiyan could've been even more time Goku

And that was the only time he'd drive Goku back. There's no telling how much time Gohan spent to transform into a SSJ, but considering he almost did it on his first attempt over imagining his father or Piccolo being killed by Freeza, it likely didn't take too much time.

 

[VampireWicked]

There's no reason Grade4 wouldn't be stronger. 

There's no reason it would be stronger, which you have yet to prove without doing a shitload of assumptions.

If two fighters equal power with the same number of transformations fought but FighterA uses Grade3 & FighterB uses Grade4, then Grade4 would be stronger due to having 100% access of his or her ki. 

No, fighter A would be stronger -- chi level output wise -- but way slower and consequently would end up losing the fight. He'd be more effective in the battle, not stronger.

Hence the name coined by the daizenshuu Super Saiyan Full Power 

The full power term doesn't have to be alluding to a higher multiplier, it might be basically meaning a perfected/more effective SSJ. Or, for all we know, might be merely referring to Goku not being at full power until fighting Cell, hence clarifying that the Goku who faced Cell is, now, a full power SSJ. The "higher multiplier" doesn't inherently come with the usage of the term.

Again it's not multiplier i speak of as Grade1, Grade2, Grade3, & Grade4 are under the same x50 transformation multiplier. 

Use whatever multiplier you wanna use. Full power SSJ doesn't have to be stronger than the Grade 2's battle power wise, let alone the Grade 3 transformation. I use a 10x multiplier for the post Freeza saga SSJ, and think the FPSSJ is -- like the standard one -- also a 10x boost off of the base state.

Grade4's PowerLevel would be higher than Grade3's. 

If both were performed by the same Saiyajin or by different Saiyajins with the same power in their base forms, then no, it wouldn't.

Grade4 has 100% access & control allowing power to be fully utilised. 

FPSSJ has the access to the standard SSJ's power, not access to the Grade states. Again, both Goku and Vegeta regarded the standard SSJ as the best combat state, and the former at least decided to work on its only disadvantage -- the instability. The muscles don't appear as excessive because they aren't accessing those kind of powers anymore -- not because they have mastered those powers. The FPSSJ is simply the old SSJ with no restless feeling, which was what was implied in the RoSaT sequence. Goku regarded the SSJ as his best combat state and said they'd perfect it so they'd could operate in the form under less stress and with a more casual and natural outlook. That is the gist of it, and Vegeta apparently understood Goku's points in using the standard SSJ as his best combat state and decided not to flash those forms he used against Semi Cell again.

And that time up until Gohan was able to go SuperSaiyan could've been even more time Goku

And that was the only time he'd drive Goku back. There's no telling how much time Gohan spent to transform into a SSJ, but considering he almost did it on his first attempt over imagining his father or Piccolo being killed by Freeza, it likely didn't take too much time.

And that's where the assumption lies.

You continuously assume Grade2 & Grade3 has a higher multiplier then Grade4 to fit your own logic.
It is Fanbased logic only that Grade2 or Grade3 has a multiplier beyond or addition to 50x when there are no such official statements supporting that logic.

You argue Grade4 would not be stronger because the term Full Power does not define it yet you argue Grade3 is stronger because of muscle mass & statements supporting that it's slower & consumes stamina & nothing else saying it would be stronger than Grade4.
No one ever said Grade3 was stronger than Grade4, ever because Grade4 didn't exist at that point.

Whereas there are official statements saying Grade4 has access to Full Power.

The term "Super Saiyan Full Power" is coined in the second daizenshuu (it appears nowhere in the manga). It also notes that Goku's aura, while his Super Saiyan power is drawn out to its limits, is "different."

while his Super Saiyan power is drawn out to its limits
That means YES both suppressed & battle power wise Grade4 has Full control over Full Power. So Grade4 can power up to the absolute limits & contain that absolute power.

It was stated that way for a reason.



Alright so tell me exactly why Grade3 would be stronger when Grade4 never existed at that point, PerfectCell wasn't even Grade4 as his potential was still being discovered, & Vegeta or FutureTrunks has never seen Grade4 in a fight.

 

[ahill1]

And that's where the assumption lies.

You continuously assume Grade2 & Grade3 has a higher multiplier then Grade4 to fit your own logic.

There's no assumption. I continue to "assume" the Grade 3 has a higher multiplier because the opposite isn't hinted at. It isn't apparent in Goku's words. He said all this new muscle mass -- referring to Grade 3 -- gives him strength at the expense of speed, and that the SSJ is best since it's a better balanced form. It isn't as strong as the Grade 3's, strength-wise, but it doesn't kill speed and stamina at an excessive rate, hence being a better form. And then he says they should get rid of that instability through the usage of the SSJ constantly, by making it their natural state. So the FPSSJ is basically the standard SSJ -- labeled by Goku and understood by Vegeta as their best combat state -- with no restless feeling and strain, all which have already been said by me over a bazillion times and to which you apparently have no counter but to insist in pointless "but it HAS to be higher than grade 3", "the Daizenshuu states it's full power" arguments, which have no ground here.

It is Fanbased logic only that Grade2 or Grade3 has a multiplier beyond or addition to 50x when there are no such official statements supporting that logic.

I am not even using a 50x multiplier for SSJ. Pretty sure I said some posts back that I use the ssj as a 10 times multiplier, and that the Grade 2 is stronger than that. The Grade 2's multiplier is higher than the multiplier you have for SSJ, whatever that might be. If you have the SSJ at 20x, then the Grade 2's multiplier should be considerably above that, but still, in all likelihood, below a 40x base multiplier.

You argue Grade4 would not be stronger because the term Full Power does not define it yet you argue Grade3 is stronger because of muscle mass & statements supporting that it's slower & consumes stamina & nothing else saying it would be stronger than Grade4.

Because the muscle mass of the Grade 3 form benefiting to its chi output was stated by Goku, who said all this muscle mass gives him strength at the expense of speed, meaning the Grade 3 is a stronger but slower form. Know what wasn't stated? The FPSSJ's multiplier being higher than the Grade 3's one.

No one ever said Grade3 was stronger than Grade4, ever because Grade4 didn't exist at that point.

And the FPSSJ wasn't hinted at having a higher multiplier than the Grade 3's one, which you still have to show any strong evidence to. The Daizenshuu's entry doesn't necessarily mean anything because:

The term "Super Saiyan Full Power" is coined in the second daizenshuu (it appears nowhere in the manga). It also notes that Goku's aura, while his Super Saiyan power is drawn out to its limits, is "different."

"Goku's aura, while the SSJ is drawn to its limits, is different", which might besically mean that Goku's aura, when he powers up to full power, differs from that of the standard SSJ, with the "drawn out to its limits" meaning basically the act of powering up the SSJ to full power and not necessarily the FPSSJ itself being the SSJ drawn out to its limits.

Alright so tell me exactly why Grade3 would be stronger when Grade4 never existed at that point, PerfectCell wasn't even Grade4 as his potential was still being discovered, & Vegeta or FutureTrunks has never seen Grade4 in a fight.

Because the Grade 4/FPSSJ wasn't hinted at having a higher multiplier compared to the SSJ when all Goku said he'd do was get rid of that restless feeling and making it -- the SSJ -- their natural form, which was the highlight of the difference between the FPSSJ and the standard SSJ. You are the one who have to present proof for the FPSSJ having a higher multiplier than even fricking Grade 3 when the Daiz's entry doesn't necessarily mean anything besides speculation.

 

[VampireWicked]

There's no assumption. I continue to "assume" the Grade 3 has a higher multiplier because the opposite isn't hinted at. It isn't apparent in Goku's words. He said all this new muscle mass -- referring to Grade 3 -- gives him strength at the expense of speed, and that the SSJ is best since it's a better balanced form. It isn't as strong as the Grade 3's, strength-wise, but it doesn't kill speed and stamina at an excessive rate, hence being a better form. And then he says they should get rid of that instability through the usage of the SSJ constantly, by making it their natural state. So the FPSSJ is basically the standard SSJ -- labeled by Goku and understood by Vegeta as their best combat state -- with no restless feeling and strain, all which have already been said by me over a bazillion times and to which you apparently have no counter but to insist in pointless "but it HAS to be higher than grade 3", "the Daizenshuu states it's full power" arguments, which have no ground here.

1. It was never stated by Goku or Vegeta Grade4 was inferior strength wise, if it was stated to be inferior then please post actual proof.
Not something that can be interpreted any way but actual statements saying "But Grade4 lacks the raw power"

2. When Vegeta made that comment Goku & Gohan was in their suppressed Grade4 state. So Vegeta wouldn't know how powerful Goku or Gohan was.

Goku as Grade4 also implied he was casually stronger then Vegeta, & he wouldn't be saying that if the current form (Grade4) he was in wasn't his strongest form.

All this before any power was fully revealed & again nothing ever stated that Grade4 lacked the raw strength of Grade3.

I am not even using a 50x multiplier for SSJ. Pretty sure I said some posts back that I use the ssj as a 10 times multiplier, and that the Grade 2 is stronger than that. The Grade 2's multiplier is higher than the multiplier you have for SSJ, whatever that might be. If you have the SSJ at 20x, then the Grade 2's multiplier should be considerably above that, but still, in all likelihood, below a 40x base multiplier.

Okay based on your assumed multipliers, how does it make any sense that Grade4 which has become the default standard SuperSaiyan transformation, doesn't get the 50x multiplier ?

Because the muscle mass of the Grade 3 form benefiting to its chi output was stated by Goku, who said all this muscle mass gives him strength at the expense of speed, meaning the Grade 3 is a stronger but slower form. Know what wasn't stated? The FPSSJ's multiplier being higher than the Grade 3's one.

How do you understand the increased muscle mass benefits the chi output for Grade2 & Grade3 but absolutely & completely have a failure to understand how Grade4 is trained to control chi yet you acknowledge that point by referring to how Goku & Gohan maintains Grade4 like normal.

2. You continuously bring up multipliers not me.

And the FPSSJ wasn't hinted at having a higher multiplier than the Grade 3's one, which you still have to show any strong evidence to. The Daizenshuu's entry doesn't necessarily mean anything because:

It means everything when there's official guidebooks saying otherwise. So show me where Akira says Grade3 has this higher multiplier you continue on about?

"Goku's aura, while the SSJ is drawn to its limits, is different", which might besically mean that Goku's aura, when he powers up to full power, differs from that of the standard SSJ, with the "drawn out to its limits" meaning basically the act of powering up the SSJ to full power and not necessarily the FPSSJ itself being the SSJ drawn out to its limits.

The quote would not be referring to Grade1 while talking directly of Grade4 & not differentiate from the two.

Because the Grade 4/FPSSJ wasn't hinted at having a higher multiplier compared to the SSJ when all Goku said he'd do was get rid of that restless feeling and making it -- the SSJ -- their natural form, which was the highlight of the difference between the FPSSJ and the standard SSJ. You are the one who have to present proof for the FPSSJ having a higher multiplier than even fricking Grade 3 when the Daiz's entry doesn't necessarily mean anything besides speculation.

You're the only one speculating by ignoring official statements.
So show me exactly where officially these Grade multipliers are that you're keen on ?????

 

[ahill1]

. It was never stated by Goku or Vegeta Grade4 was inferior strength wise, if it was stated to be inferior then please post actual proof. 

I needn't to post evidence because the FPSSJ having a higher multiplier than the standard SSJ wasn't proven nor implied besides insignificant nitipicks and speculations. YOU prove that the FPSSJ's mulriplier is bigger than the Grade 3's (or heck, bigger than the SSJ's one), which so far you have completely failed to do.

Let me tell you something, wanting something to be true doesn't make such something true. You want the FPSSJ to have a bigger multiplier so it could suit your story better? Okay, just be aware that's merely your opinion witn no real backing up. There's nothing concretely stating it besides a few unsupported and shitty implications.

When Vegeta made that comment Goku & Gohan was in their suppressed Grade4 state. 
Goku also implied he was casually stronger then Vegeta. 

It doesn't matter whether Goku was suppressed or at full power, what matters is that Vegeta understood Goku's point of using the standard SSJ as his best combat state and not flash the Grade forms again, all without knowing it'd grant Goku a higher amplification off of his base state, meaning he also regarded the standard SSJ as simply a better state compared to the one he had flashed earlier. Maybe it doesn't make sense from a writing perspective considering the Grade 2 form seemingly granted a speed boost and wasn't that draining to his stamina? Maybe, but that's still what it is.

again nothing ever stated that Grade4 lacked the raw strength of Grade3. 

Whereas the opposite was never stated nor implied. Pone up some evidence or move on.

Okay based on your assumed multipliers, how does it make any sense that Grade4 which has become the default standard SuperSaiyan transformation, doesn't get the 50x multiplier ?

Because it's simply the SSJ with no restless feeling? Yes? Then no reason to have it higher than my standard SSJ's multiplier, even more when you -- apparently unknowingly -- already debunked the points for it having a multiplier at least comparable to the Grade 2's by arguing Vegeta wasn't a FPSSJ at the CGs.

How do you understand the increased muscle mass benefits the chi output for Grade2 & Grade3 but absolutely & completely have a failure to understand how Grade4 is trained to control chi yet you acknowledge that point by referring to how Goku & Gohan maintains Grade4 like normal. 

Because it was stated by Goku those excessive muscles gave him strength at the expense of shitty speed. What Goku stated is that they'd make their SSJ their standard/natural form by getting used to its restless feeling via the overuse of it -- except when sleeping --, which in no way, shape or form translates to Goku mastering those states, which were disregarded by Goku as useless. That's just you jumping to conclusions as usual.

It means everything when there's official guidebooks saying otherwise. So show me where Akira says Grade3 has this higher multiplier you continue on about? 

Except there's NOT an official guidebook statement saying otherwise. Should I quote me refuting that supposedly guidebook statement, which is totally void of meaning as to what you were trying to defend?

The quote would not be referring to Grade1 while talking directly of Grade4 & not differentiate from the two. 

Whatever you are even trying to say... but again, just so you didn't get it, the quote might VERY WELL be referring by "drawing to its limits" to Goku powering up to full power with the SSJ there, whereas he wasn't at full power before. So, once Goku powers up to full power -- drawing the SSJ to its limits -- we can see a difference in the auras. Done.

You're the only one speculating by ignoring official statements. 

I am not ignoring it, I am noticing that such statement is irrelevant. You as usual are jumping to conclusions. So you take Goku saying that the SSJ is the way to go and that they should get rid of that instability to mean he is trying to control the Grade 3's chi and convert that into a non-strenful state? Yeah, nice fanfic there!

 

[VampireWicked]

I needn't to post evidence because the FPSSJ having a higher multiplier than the standard SSJ wasn't proven nor implied besides insignificant nitipicks and speculations. YOU prove that the FPSSJ's mulriplier is bigger than the Grade 3's (or heck, bigger than the SSJ's one), which so far you have completely failed to do.

Let me tell you something, wanting something to be true doesn't make such something true. You want the FPSSJ to have a bigger multiplier so it could suit your story better? Okay, just be aware that's merely your opinion witn no real backing up. There's nothing concretely stating it besides a few unsupported and shitty implications.

I'm sorry but i've given you official guidebooks information & you've ignored it.
You refuse to accept official guidebook information, you ignore a statement made by Akira Toriyama where he doesn't acknowledge Grade2 & Grade3 at all.

He says

You can train Super Saiyan form hard enough to reach a power even higher than Super Saiyan 3

So by the definition of Toriyama Goku trained SuperSaiyan hard enough to reach a power even higher then Grade3 resulting in Grade4.

By ignoring both Akira Toriyama & official guidebooks just proves it's more you wanting something to be true more than anything else.

You've done nothing but prove another in a very long list of fanbased assumed multipliers.
You've given in universe statements that neither confirms Grade3 being superior in raw power to Grade4 or denies Grade4 is superior in every possible way to the previous grades before it, EVERY POSSIBLE WAY.

So YES it's all on you to provide actual evidence saying the true raw power of the SuperSaiyan transformation is Grade3, a clear statement that cannot be interpreted in any other way that contradicts official guidebook statements & Akira Toriyama himself.

 

[ahill1]

I'm sorry but i've given you official guidebooks information & you've ignored it. 

I guess you don't know what "ignoring" means then, because I haven't ignored it, I have already addressed those supposed official statements regarding the FPSSJ, all which doesn't even remotely imply what you think they do. So yeah, irrelevant. You knew I addressed those, but since you had no come-back you have to resort to this "you ignored it".... clearly not the case.

You can train Super Saiyan form hard enough to reach a power even higher than Super Saiyan 3

Is that exactly what stated? Because the AT's statement you posted earlier seems quite different. Not that it matters though, as Goku still constantly flashes the SSJ2 and SSJ3, at least meaning the SSJ hasn't been properly trained yet to surpass those forms, nor do we know the training Goku performed in the RoSaT is such intended to surpass the SSJ in that way. It even says Goku realized it AFTER the battle with Beerus, implying it wasn't something thought up beforehand. So no, it doesn't mean the FPSSJ's multiplier is even remotely comparable to the Grade 3's one. Got another proof?

By ignoring both Akira Toriyama & official guidebooks just proves it's more you wanting something to be true more than anything else. 

Already addressed.

You've done nothing but prove another in a very long list of fanbased assumed multipliers. 

I don't need to concretly prove it when the idea of the FPSSJ having a higher multiplier was never hinted at. Goku stated he'd train the SSJ in a way he'd get rid of its instability. Meaning? The FPSSJ is a SSJ with no such disadvantage. So, no higher multiplier hinted at. Burden of proof lies on you, and no, that statement from Toriyama and the Daizenshuu's one mean 0. You are picking up kind of random statements and trying to shape their actual meaning into something else.

Grade4 is superior in every possible way to the previous grades before it, EVERY POSSIBLE WAY. 

Nope, it's a more effective state. Not a stronger one. "Every possible way" is something you added.

So YES it's all on you to provide actual evidence saying the true raw power of the SuperSaiyan transformation is Grade3, a clear statement that cannot be interpreted in any other way that contradicts official guidebook statements & Akira Toriyama himself.

No, the burden of proof lies on you to prove that by "getting rid of that instability" he was also denoting an increase on its multiplier.

 

[VampireWicked]

I guess you don't know what "ignoring" means then, because I haven't ignored it, I have already addressed those supposed official statements regarding the FPSSJ, all which doesn't even remotely imply what you think they do. So yeah, irrelevant. You knew I addressed those, but since you had no come-back you have to resort to this "you ignored it".... clearly not the case.

Saying official statements don't mean what you think they mean isn't proof of anything.
That's fanbased interpretation & if you can't provide anything to support your claims then YES you are ignoring it.

Is that exactly what stated? Because the AT's statement you posted earlier seems quite different. Not that it matters though, as Goku still constantly flashes the SSJ2 and SSJ3, at least meaning the SSJ hasn't been properly trained yet to surpass those forms, nor do we know the training Goku performed in the RoSaT is such intended to surpass the SSJ in that way. It even says Goku realized it AFTER the battle with Beerus, implying it wasn't something thought up beforehand. So no, it doesn't mean the FPSSJ's multiplier is even remotely comparable to the Grade 3's one. Got another proof?

Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. After the fight with Beerus, Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more.

You can train Super Saiyan form hard enough to reach a power even higher than Super Saiyan 3

Two different interviews & nothing is different.

So can you provide official statements saying otherwise ?