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Why should I believe Puipui could beat Recoome?
Pretty much this. Kaioshin said Freeza isn't a big deal to him but was nervous every time one of Babidi's guys came out to fight them.Pui Pui > Kaioshin > Freeza > Recoome
He has no reason to. He cannot sense Pui Pui's energy. Plus, the King of the Demon Realm garners all of the attention. This is irrelevant.Kaioshin shows no reaction to Puipui when they're outside the ship.
This goes against the source material. Shin was concerned about fighting Badibi and his minion before people like Yakon or Dabura were ever introduced. Remember, it is Shin asking for the Saiyans help because he does not feel like he can do it on his own.He only thinks they have no chance because of Dabura and Babidi.
The implication on Pui Pui's power is a direct power statement. Badibi expects Pui Pui to kill 3 beings superior to Shin while Shin watches and has no concerns about Shin being able to do anything. Badibi seems to have a read on Shin's power and Shin's concerns seem to match that as well.There's zero indication of Puipui's power
Yeah, you totally try to 4 v 1 a guy you aren't scared of. Right.In the ship, Kaioshin never says he's scared of Puipui.
Agreed. Nappa is pui pui level.Why should I believe Puipui could beat Recoome?
Exactly, having a fighter 100s of times weaker is weird in this scenario.I have a hard time imagining that Pui Pui isn't anywhere near Yakon in strength for example, even with the x10 gravity thing.
I have a hard time imagining that Pui Pui isn't anywhere near Yakon in strength for example, even with the x10 gravity thing.
Puipui gets no reaction, even after he kills Yamu.
Pretty much this. Kaioshin said Freeza isn't a big deal to him but was nervous every time one of Babidi's guys came out to fight them.
There's no one on the ship that can easily outclass Pui Pui other than Yakon and Dabura.Why? Pui Pui is the 1st fighter in the gauntlet, Yakon is the 4th. They're completely different levels. Even after Vegeta completely trashes Pui Pui, Dabra thinks sending Yakon is overkill.
It's literally stated that he's nowhere near Yakon in strength.I have a hard time imagining that Pui Pui isn't anywhere near Yakon in strength for example, even with the x10 gravity thing.
It's a big deal because Kaioshin does not ever make a comment on Pui Pui's power, at any point. Not once. I dare anyone to try and show me where he does. You won't find it.That's a good catch. Kaioshin has a direct showing of Pui Pui's power. Killing Yamu isn't a big deal, but some characters can tell someone's FP just from getting a little peek.
He warned Vegeta about fighting alone against Pui Pui. Watches Pui Pui fight, never comments on him being wrong about Pui Pui being a threat. Ends up walking away super impressed with Vegeta's power to finish Pui Pui.It's a big deal because Kaioshin does not ever make a comment on Pui Pui's power, at any point. Not once. I dare anyone to try and show me where he does. You won't find it.
Why would Vegeta have to use an impressive battle power to finish off Pui Pui? Why not use a 1 million power level and get the job done?The ONLY solid basis for Pui's power is the 10x gravity scene. If not for the 10x gravity scene, then you could point to Vegeta not immediately 1-shotting him, only you actually couldn't because Vegeta could've done that all along (as he demonstrates on the planet Zun not long after).
It doesn't really matter. Future Trunks going Super Saiyan when he killed the Androids of his time is overkill, no? What about Freeza powering up to more than 20x Base Goku? Even if he somehow estimated the strength of Goku's KKx10, why not go 15x and get the job done? Captain Ginyu intended to fight Krillin and Gohan with 180k.Why would Vegeta have to use an impressive battle power to finish off Pui Pui? Why not use a 1 million power level and get the job done?
He didn't need to comment on that because Pui Pui not being a threat is self-evident. Check out the fight. Kaioshin hardly watches Pui fight, because Pui does absolutely nothing. He throws one kick, and I could just as easily point out that we have no indication that Kaioshin couldn't follow that kick (if Pui is strong enough that Kaioshin + his estimation of the 3 Saiyans are needed to fight him together, then Kaioshin shouldn't be able to follow his movements).never comments on him being wrong about Pui Pui being a threat.
It is. But typically we don't see overkill. That's a one off scenario. Can you name any other scenarios where someone overkills like this? Typically people use the least amount of power necessary.It doesn't really matter. Future Trunks going Super Saiyan when he killed the Androids of his time is overkill, no?
A 1.5-2x gap is a typical gap. What you are suggesting is a 100-1,000x gap. That's where I have to stop you.What about Freeza powering up to more than 20x Base Goku? Even if he somehow estimated the strength of Goku's KKx10, why not go 15x and get the job done? Captain Ginyu intended to fight Krillin and Gohan with 180k.
He's a moron, that's easy. And he's desperate. Fighters lie to themselves all the time. How logical is it for Gohan to think he can run away from Fat Buu? How logical is it for Piccolo to think he can escape 3rd Form Freeza? Fighters rationalize illogical things all the time to protect their ego so they don't fall into despair.I can't explain why Pui Pui would think 10x gravity would turn the tides if he were 1.5 billion.
So your answer is that Shin sees Pui Pui throw a kick at 1/100th his own speed and still walks away impressed with Vegeta. Make it make sense.He throws one kick, and I could just as easily point out that we have no indication that Kaioshin couldn't follow that kick
He should have! I rarely think fixing the manga is the way to go, besides the numerical values AT has assigned of course, but this is one area that should be redone. 100x gravity fits the narrative much better. AT is a forgetful man and is being rushed, this is why the Buu Saga is so messy. Pui Pui's line should be changed to 100x gravity and Pui Pui should be a demon from the Demon Realm. Freeza should go unchallenged in this universe and this should make the how scenario have a lot more weight and it's more interesting. Badibi recruits all the strong guys from the Demon World to take on the main world and so on.Consider Akira Toriyama's intent as well. If Pui Pui is relevant to the Android powers or something, why not write the scene to say 100x gravity?
The last time 10x did anything was Saiyan Saga Goku. AT made a mistake, it happens.in fact, it would do an even better job of that, because 10x isn't even a real benchmark for Vegeta.
No, the narrative is that Pui Pui is indeed a threat, it's just that the Saiyans are far stronger than he expected. That's the narrative. Not that Pui Pui was overhyped.He didn't need to comment on that because Pui Pui not being a threat is self-evident.
Following movements is an inconsistent thing, you know that. When's the last time in Z that a fighter merely 1.5x stronger or whatever couldn't be followed? That's a Dragonball thing for the most part and happened in the Freeza Saga a couple times. It's not used post Freeza at all IIRC.Check out the fight. Kaioshin hardly watches Pui fight, because Pui does absolutely nothing. He throws one kick, and I could just as easily point out that we have no indication that Kaioshin couldn't follow that kick (if Pui is strong enough that Kaioshin + his estimation of the 3 Saiyans are needed to fight him together, then Kaioshin shouldn't be able to follow his movements).
It's not. They can win if they work together. That's the point of Shin recruiting them remember? Shin can't do it on his own. He needs help. If they stick together and combine their powers, maybe they can pull off a win.Here's another point to consider. If Kaioshin honestly believes that his estimation of the Saiyans + himself need to gang up to beat Pui Pui and that they'd lose 1v1 or even 2v1, and if he's correct about that (with respect to his estimation of Pui Pui, not the Saiyans), then the whole mission is pointless.
Well that is the narrative! Lol. It's like you aren't even reading the same story man. Dabura's entrance completely demoralizes Shin, he thinks it's game over! It's not until the Saiyans complete lack of concern over Dabura does he even reconsider, but even then, dude is sent into straight panic mode by Dabura. A power even with SSJ Gohan, who guess what, is Z Sword capable, a being capable of actually defeating Majin Buu! So we know Dabura is way beyond his expectations for the Saiyans, because he didn't know how strong they were!They'd have 0 chance against Dabura or even the next fighter.
Shin expects Pui Pui to be very strong and the team should have to gang up on him to win just like Badibi thinks.I would contest the notion that Kaioshin is estimating anything about Pui Pui at all. He's just not willing to take chances.
I'm pretty much with you on all this.He should have! I rarely think fixing the manga is the way to go, besides the numerical values AT has assigned of course, but this is one area that should be redone. 100x gravity fits the narrative much better. AT is a forgetful man and is being rushed, this is why the Buu Saga is so messy. Pui Pui's line should be changed to 100x gravity and Pui Pui should be a demon from the Demon Realm. Freeza should go unchallenged in this universe and this should make the how scenario have a lot more weight and it's more interesting. Badibi recruits all the strong guys from the Demon World to take on the main world and so on.
More specifically: working together maximizes their chances of winning. Kaioshin does not understand why the Saiyans are against working together when it offers such a free advantage. The Saiyans are accustomed to 1v1s because that's just what they do, even Gohan. I don't think you disagree with this per se, but you believe that if Pui Pui was a total pushover then the focus of the scene should've been that he was overhyped. I would normally agree with you, but the 10G thing just fucks it all up.They can win if they work together
Dabura sending Kaioshin into panic mode is pretty key if you want an answer to why he's so antsy. I know most people will answer my next question with "well, he forgot about SSJ2, for some reason," but why is Kaioshin so concerned when he has SSJ2 Gohan on his side? He's panicking and he does not want to take any chances if it might bring Boo closer to revival. The entire universe is at stake and he cannot comprehend why the battle-hungry Saiyans are willing to throw away an easy advantage for the sake of their fun or honor or what have you.Well that is the narrative! Lol. It's like you aren't even reading the same story man. Dabura's entrance completely demoralizes Shin, he thinks it's game over! It's not until the Saiyans complete lack of concern over Dabura does he even reconsider, but even then, dude is sent into straight panic mode by Dabura. A power even with SSJ Gohan, who guess what, is Z Sword capable, a being capable of actually defeating Majin Buu! So we know Dabura is way beyond his expectations for the Saiyans, because he didn't know how strong they were!
Jack was wrong.Jack was the one who originally convinced me to consider the other side.
It happens but it's not consistent. Shin is following Dabura vs SSJ Gohan isn't he? So it's a moot point.Pretty sure the Cell kids couldn't follow SSJ2 Gohan with their eyes.
I agree, it's a clear mistake. But I'm not going to let the author's mistake detract me from the true course of the narrative. He does the same thing with the whole is Gohan a SSJ or SSJ2 thing. He makes a mistake in not outlining why Gohan is just a SSJ, and telling Gohan to get angry like the CG makes it even more confusing. These are errors, but not narrative changers. That's the biggest issue with the Buu Saga. The errors can lead one to a different narrative, but the narrative stays true throughout, despite it's clunkiness. We must remain on the right path despite implications deterring it.I would normally agree with you, but the 10G thing just fucks it all up.
He forgot about sensing SSJ2 Gohan's power. He has no idea how strong Gohan is and is back to his regular expectations of when he first met Goku.Dabura sending Kaioshin into panic mode is pretty key if you want an answer to why he's so antsy. I know most people will answer my next question with "well, he forgot about SSJ2, for some reason," but why is Kaioshin so concerned when he has SSJ2 Gohan on his side?
That is part of the narrative indeed. I'm in no way throwing that out. But that narrative compliments the power implications made by Badibi and Shin, it's not supposed to override them.He's panicking and he does not want to take any chances if it might bring Boo closer to revival. The entire universe is at stake and he cannot comprehend why the battle-hungry Saiyans are willing to throw away an easy advantage for the sake of their fun or honor or what have you.