Recoome vs the all powerless Puipui

Warmmedown

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On the flip side, why would someone stronger than Freeza brag about 10x gravity and then be surprised that his opponent isn't scared of that?
 
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Warmmedown

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Kaioshin shows no reaction to Puipui when they're outside the ship. He only thinks they have no chance because of Dabura and Babidi. He says Babidi isn't strong but has incredible magic, and the reason he gives for it being incredible is that he can control others, even someone as powerful as Dabura. Since there's nobody else on Earth who's powerful (for Babidi to make into a powerful servant. As far as Kaioshin knows, there's no risk of the saiyans or Piccolo turning Majin), this is like Kaioshin saying it's Dabura helping Babidi that makes them have no chance, or something about his assistance combined with Babidi's magic.
Either way, whatever threat Babidi's magic poses, Puipui gets no reaction, even after he kills Yamu. There's zero indication of Puipui's power, except that he thinks it would have been enough for the Z team to overcome. About Dabura, Kaioshin just says he's the strongest in the Demon Universe, but doesn't give an indication of his fighting power. It's like Piccolo getting flustered by Kaioshin being the leader of the Kais, even though it turns out Kaioshin isn't that strong compared the saiyans. He also doesn't know SSJ2 exists, indicating he doesn't know everything about the mortal realm, so he might know little about the demon realm too.
Dabura's threat also can't be due to his power level because at the tournament, Kaioshin says about SSJ2 Gohan "I'm not sure if I can contain that power" and then it turns out he can contain it. Later we see Dabura is only as strong as SSJ1 or maybe SSJ2 Gohan. So if he's unsure about being able to contain Gohan, then he probably thinks he has a chance of containing the power. If Dabura has comparable power to Gohan's SSJ2 (or even far less, if he's only comparable to SSJ1), but Kaioshin says they have "no chance" - so the fear of Dabura can't be about his power level. If it was about PL, he'd think they have some chance of containing Dabura. It's to do with Dabura being a demon or to do with Babidi being capable of countering Kaioshin's magic, not about PL.

In the ship, Kaioshin never says he's scared of Puipui. He just says that Babidi has strong fighters - nothing about Puipui himself. This could be based on history he's been taught as a Kaioshin, or just based on some irrational fear, due to Babidi's reputation. It's the same as him thinking Dabura helping Babidi means they have "no chance", despite having already felt SSJ2 Gohan's ki at the tournie and knowing that Vegeta was unimpressed by Gohan's power.

Also, in ch449 Dabura asks how many 100s (not 1000s) of people it took to get around 45% of Buu's needed energy. They don't know that the energy came from Gohan. After the Puipui fight (ch449), they say "why are there such powerful foes on Earth?" and "there was nothing like this 300 years ago". So they think the 45% came from 100s of people with PLs found 300 years ago on Earth - the strongest of whom would have a PL of maybe 200 - someone like Roshi or Mutaito (possibly higher if they knew about Nameless Namek, Kami or King Piccolo). So as far as they know, earthlings aren't very strong. They could think Recoome would destroy the strongest earthlings, because they expected a PL under 1000. This also means that to them, the power that came from Gohan is at most 300,000PL (from 1000 300PL humans, as Dabura thinks it took only "100s" of humans to get the energy). This shows they're completely clueless about how much ki energy in general, since they think just a couple thousand humans' energy could revive Buu. They sent Yamu to a tournie where there are several human fighers (maybe 20, all with a 100PL), then a bunch of audience members. You add that up and it's like 2000 for the fighters, then a few thousand for hundreds of audience members. A total power far weaker than Cui, never mind mind Recoome.
 
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Power Level Guy

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Kaioshin shows no reaction to Puipui when they're outside the ship.
He has no reason to. He cannot sense Pui Pui's energy. Plus, the King of the Demon Realm garners all of the attention. This is irrelevant.

He only thinks they have no chance because of Dabura and Babidi.
This goes against the source material. Shin was concerned about fighting Badibi and his minion before people like Yakon or Dabura were ever introduced. Remember, it is Shin asking for the Saiyans help because he does not feel like he can do it on his own.

There's zero indication of Puipui's power
The implication on Pui Pui's power is a direct power statement. Badibi expects Pui Pui to kill 3 beings superior to Shin while Shin watches and has no concerns about Shin being able to do anything. Badibi seems to have a read on Shin's power and Shin's concerns seem to match that as well.

In the ship, Kaioshin never says he's scared of Puipui.
Yeah, you totally try to 4 v 1 a guy you aren't scared of. Right.
 

Yoshi

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I have a hard time imagining that Pui Pui isn't anywhere near Yakon in strength for example, even with the x10 gravity thing.
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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I have a hard time imagining that Pui Pui isn't anywhere near Yakon in strength for example, even with the x10 gravity thing.

Why? Pui Pui is the 1st fighter in the gauntlet, Yakon is the 4th. They're completely different levels. Even after Vegeta completely trashes Pui Pui, Dabra thinks sending Yakon is overkill.

Puipui gets no reaction, even after he kills Yamu.

That's a good catch. Kaioshin has a direct showing of Pui Pui's power. Killing Yamu isn't a big deal, but some characters can tell someone's FP just from getting a little peek.

Pretty much this. Kaioshin said Freeza isn't a big deal to him but was nervous every time one of Babidi's guys came out to fight them.

What if he was just being cautious?
 

Power Level Guy

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Why? Pui Pui is the 1st fighter in the gauntlet, Yakon is the 4th. They're completely different levels. Even after Vegeta completely trashes Pui Pui, Dabra thinks sending Yakon is overkill.
There's no one on the ship that can easily outclass Pui Pui other than Yakon and Dabura.
 

Kyo

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I have a hard time imagining that Pui Pui isn't anywhere near Yakon in strength for example, even with the x10 gravity thing.
It's literally stated that he's nowhere near Yakon in strength.

That's a good catch. Kaioshin has a direct showing of Pui Pui's power. Killing Yamu isn't a big deal, but some characters can tell someone's FP just from getting a little peek.
It's a big deal because Kaioshin does not ever make a comment on Pui Pui's power, at any point. Not once. I dare anyone to try and show me where he does. You won't find it.

The only reason he gives for being cautious of Pui Pui is that he knows Babidi collects the strongest fighters in the universe, and he only directs this caution towards Pui Pui when Pui comes out as the first fighter. He doesn't know anything about Pui Pui and I've demonstrated countless times that Babidi at the very least lacks full knowledge of Kaioshin's capabilities.

The ONLY solid basis for Pui's power is the 10x gravity scene. If not for the 10x gravity scene, then you could point to Vegeta not immediately 1-shotting him, only you actually couldn't because Vegeta could've done that all along (as he demonstrates on the planet Zun not long after).
 

Power Level Guy

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It's a big deal because Kaioshin does not ever make a comment on Pui Pui's power, at any point. Not once. I dare anyone to try and show me where he does. You won't find it.
He warned Vegeta about fighting alone against Pui Pui. Watches Pui Pui fight, never comments on him being wrong about Pui Pui being a threat. Ends up walking away super impressed with Vegeta's power to finish Pui Pui.

Vegeta > Pui Pui > Expected Saiyans > Shin

Pui Pui matches Shin's expectations. Vegeta exceeds them. That's the part of the narrative you are missing.
 

Power Level Guy

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The ONLY solid basis for Pui's power is the 10x gravity scene. If not for the 10x gravity scene, then you could point to Vegeta not immediately 1-shotting him, only you actually couldn't because Vegeta could've done that all along (as he demonstrates on the planet Zun not long after).
Why would Vegeta have to use an impressive battle power to finish off Pui Pui? Why not use a 1 million power level and get the job done?
 

Kyo

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Why would Vegeta have to use an impressive battle power to finish off Pui Pui? Why not use a 1 million power level and get the job done?
It doesn't really matter. Future Trunks going Super Saiyan when he killed the Androids of his time is overkill, no? What about Freeza powering up to more than 20x Base Goku? Even if he somehow estimated the strength of Goku's KKx10, why not go 15x and get the job done? Captain Ginyu intended to fight Krillin and Gohan with 180k.

This is the most poorly written part of the entire series, but my conclusion makes the most sense to me. I can easily explain why Vegeta killed Pui Pui with a 2.5 billion blast with a "why not?" I can't explain why Pui Pui would think 10x gravity would turn the tides if he were 1.5 billion. I guess he's a retard? Or, more likely, he's weak enough that he's never met someone who can withstand 10x gravity even without training.

Consider Akira Toriyama's intent as well. If Pui Pui is relevant to the Android powers or something, why not write the scene to say 100x gravity? It would get the same point across about how far Vegeta has come -- in fact, it would do an even better job of that, because 10x isn't even a real benchmark for Vegeta.

never comments on him being wrong about Pui Pui being a threat.
He didn't need to comment on that because Pui Pui not being a threat is self-evident. Check out the fight. Kaioshin hardly watches Pui fight, because Pui does absolutely nothing. He throws one kick, and I could just as easily point out that we have no indication that Kaioshin couldn't follow that kick (if Pui is strong enough that Kaioshin + his estimation of the 3 Saiyans are needed to fight him together, then Kaioshin shouldn't be able to follow his movements).

Here's another point to consider. If Kaioshin honestly believes that his estimation of the Saiyans + himself need to gang up to beat Pui Pui and that they'd lose 1v1 or even 2v1, and if he's correct about that (with respect to his estimation of Pui Pui, not the Saiyans), then the whole mission is pointless. They'd have 0 chance against Dabura or even the next fighter. I would contest the notion that Kaioshin is estimating anything about Pui Pui at all. He's just not willing to take chances. Even still, it shocks him how strong Base Vegeta is, but that doesn't change a thing about Pui Pui.
 

Power Level Guy

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It doesn't really matter. Future Trunks going Super Saiyan when he killed the Androids of his time is overkill, no?
It is. But typically we don't see overkill. That's a one off scenario. Can you name any other scenarios where someone overkills like this? Typically people use the least amount of power necessary.

What about Freeza powering up to more than 20x Base Goku? Even if he somehow estimated the strength of Goku's KKx10, why not go 15x and get the job done? Captain Ginyu intended to fight Krillin and Gohan with 180k.
A 1.5-2x gap is a typical gap. What you are suggesting is a 100-1,000x gap. That's where I have to stop you.

I can't explain why Pui Pui would think 10x gravity would turn the tides if he were 1.5 billion.
He's a moron, that's easy. And he's desperate. Fighters lie to themselves all the time. How logical is it for Gohan to think he can run away from Fat Buu? How logical is it for Piccolo to think he can escape 3rd Form Freeza? Fighters rationalize illogical things all the time to protect their ego so they don't fall into despair.

He throws one kick, and I could just as easily point out that we have no indication that Kaioshin couldn't follow that kick
So your answer is that Shin sees Pui Pui throw a kick at 1/100th his own speed and still walks away impressed with Vegeta. Make it make sense.

Consider Akira Toriyama's intent as well. If Pui Pui is relevant to the Android powers or something, why not write the scene to say 100x gravity?
He should have! I rarely think fixing the manga is the way to go, besides the numerical values AT has assigned of course, but this is one area that should be redone. 100x gravity fits the narrative much better. AT is a forgetful man and is being rushed, this is why the Buu Saga is so messy. Pui Pui's line should be changed to 100x gravity and Pui Pui should be a demon from the Demon Realm. Freeza should go unchallenged in this universe and this should make the how scenario have a lot more weight and it's more interesting. Badibi recruits all the strong guys from the Demon World to take on the main world and so on.

in fact, it would do an even better job of that, because 10x isn't even a real benchmark for Vegeta.
The last time 10x did anything was Saiyan Saga Goku. AT made a mistake, it happens.

He didn't need to comment on that because Pui Pui not being a threat is self-evident.
No, the narrative is that Pui Pui is indeed a threat, it's just that the Saiyans are far stronger than he expected. That's the narrative. Not that Pui Pui was overhyped.

Check out the fight. Kaioshin hardly watches Pui fight, because Pui does absolutely nothing. He throws one kick, and I could just as easily point out that we have no indication that Kaioshin couldn't follow that kick (if Pui is strong enough that Kaioshin + his estimation of the 3 Saiyans are needed to fight him together, then Kaioshin shouldn't be able to follow his movements).
Following movements is an inconsistent thing, you know that. When's the last time in Z that a fighter merely 1.5x stronger or whatever couldn't be followed? That's a Dragonball thing for the most part and happened in the Freeza Saga a couple times. It's not used post Freeza at all IIRC.

Here's another point to consider. If Kaioshin honestly believes that his estimation of the Saiyans + himself need to gang up to beat Pui Pui and that they'd lose 1v1 or even 2v1, and if he's correct about that (with respect to his estimation of Pui Pui, not the Saiyans), then the whole mission is pointless.
It's not. They can win if they work together. That's the point of Shin recruiting them remember? Shin can't do it on his own. He needs help. If they stick together and combine their powers, maybe they can pull off a win.

They'd have 0 chance against Dabura or even the next fighter.
Well that is the narrative! Lol. It's like you aren't even reading the same story man. Dabura's entrance completely demoralizes Shin, he thinks it's game over! It's not until the Saiyans complete lack of concern over Dabura does he even reconsider, but even then, dude is sent into straight panic mode by Dabura. A power even with SSJ Gohan, who guess what, is Z Sword capable, a being capable of actually defeating Majin Buu! So we know Dabura is way beyond his expectations for the Saiyans, because he didn't know how strong they were!

I would contest the notion that Kaioshin is estimating anything about Pui Pui at all. He's just not willing to take chances.
Shin expects Pui Pui to be very strong and the team should have to gang up on him to win just like Badibi thinks.

Badibi and Shin's expectations are identical for most of the ship sequence. And wala, when the Saiyans exceed their expectations, they share the same shocked face. Time and time again. Please read it again lol
 

Kyo

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I've read the sequence many times and Pui Pui being >>> Kaioshin was my stance for a pretty long time. Jack was the one who originally convinced me to consider the other side.

Pretty sure the Cell kids couldn't follow SSJ2 Gohan with their eyes.

He should have! I rarely think fixing the manga is the way to go, besides the numerical values AT has assigned of course, but this is one area that should be redone. 100x gravity fits the narrative much better. AT is a forgetful man and is being rushed, this is why the Buu Saga is so messy. Pui Pui's line should be changed to 100x gravity and Pui Pui should be a demon from the Demon Realm. Freeza should go unchallenged in this universe and this should make the how scenario have a lot more weight and it's more interesting. Badibi recruits all the strong guys from the Demon World to take on the main world and so on.
I'm pretty much with you on all this.

They can win if they work together
More specifically: working together maximizes their chances of winning. Kaioshin does not understand why the Saiyans are against working together when it offers such a free advantage. The Saiyans are accustomed to 1v1s because that's just what they do, even Gohan. I don't think you disagree with this per se, but you believe that if Pui Pui was a total pushover then the focus of the scene should've been that he was overhyped. I would normally agree with you, but the 10G thing just fucks it all up.

One of the takeaways of the 10G thing is that Pui Pui is delusional, yes, but I would argue another is that he's never met someone who can withstand 10G without training (he assumes Vegeta has never experienced 10G). Babidi and Dabura's dialogue suggests that this is not the first time that fighting on his home planet has given him an advantage, that's why they sent him there.

Well that is the narrative! Lol. It's like you aren't even reading the same story man. Dabura's entrance completely demoralizes Shin, he thinks it's game over! It's not until the Saiyans complete lack of concern over Dabura does he even reconsider, but even then, dude is sent into straight panic mode by Dabura. A power even with SSJ Gohan, who guess what, is Z Sword capable, a being capable of actually defeating Majin Buu! So we know Dabura is way beyond his expectations for the Saiyans, because he didn't know how strong they were!
Dabura sending Kaioshin into panic mode is pretty key if you want an answer to why he's so antsy. I know most people will answer my next question with "well, he forgot about SSJ2, for some reason," but why is Kaioshin so concerned when he has SSJ2 Gohan on his side? He's panicking and he does not want to take any chances if it might bring Boo closer to revival. The entire universe is at stake and he cannot comprehend why the battle-hungry Saiyans are willing to throw away an easy advantage for the sake of their fun or honor or what have you.
 

Power Level Guy

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Jack was the one who originally convinced me to consider the other side.
Jack was wrong.

Pretty sure the Cell kids couldn't follow SSJ2 Gohan with their eyes.
It happens but it's not consistent. Shin is following Dabura vs SSJ Gohan isn't he? So it's a moot point.

I would normally agree with you, but the 10G thing just fucks it all up.
I agree, it's a clear mistake. But I'm not going to let the author's mistake detract me from the true course of the narrative. He does the same thing with the whole is Gohan a SSJ or SSJ2 thing. He makes a mistake in not outlining why Gohan is just a SSJ, and telling Gohan to get angry like the CG makes it even more confusing. These are errors, but not narrative changers. That's the biggest issue with the Buu Saga. The errors can lead one to a different narrative, but the narrative stays true throughout, despite it's clunkiness. We must remain on the right path despite implications deterring it.

Dabura sending Kaioshin into panic mode is pretty key if you want an answer to why he's so antsy. I know most people will answer my next question with "well, he forgot about SSJ2, for some reason," but why is Kaioshin so concerned when he has SSJ2 Gohan on his side?
He forgot about sensing SSJ2 Gohan's power. He has no idea how strong Gohan is and is back to his regular expectations of when he first met Goku.

He's panicking and he does not want to take any chances if it might bring Boo closer to revival. The entire universe is at stake and he cannot comprehend why the battle-hungry Saiyans are willing to throw away an easy advantage for the sake of their fun or honor or what have you.
That is part of the narrative indeed. I'm in no way throwing that out. But that narrative compliments the power implications made by Badibi and Shin, it's not supposed to override them.
 
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