RoSaT Levels

[FeatsofPower]

Alright, I have my Freeza to Buu Saga numbers all complete except for this one area.

I've made some major adjustments to how strong the Buu Saga Base Saiyans are, so now I have so much room for this saga I'm unsure of what to do with it. We've always had to squeeze things to try to make the Base Saiyans somewhere around the Androids, but now, I have the Base Saiyans 10-20x above Android 18. Which is a complete game changer now. No need to nerf Light Grenade, Grade 3, or 50% Goku > All. This should be quite interesting.

Let's see how it goes on the first shot.


Super Saiyan Goku 150

Android 17 250

Grade 2 Goku 300

Piccolo 250
~ Light Grenade 500

Android 16 1,000

Imperfect Cell 1,000


Super Saiyan Trunks 2,400
Semi Cell 2,500
Super Saiyan Vegeta 2,500

Grade 3 Goku 3,000

Super Vegeta 5,000

Perfect Cell 12,500

Grade 3 Trunks 24,000

50% Goku 75,000

I tell you one thing, it is so so nice to not have to squeeze things. This went down rather easily and without much intense thought. Nice for a change.



Ok, so I went with a 2x boost for Grade 2 and a 10x boost for Grade 3. This looks quite interesting. The 10x boost for Grade 3 seems super necessary to get Grade 3 Goku > Semi Cell.

And I like that 50% Goku is so far ahead of Trunks as well, maybe it's a bit too much, but I like what I'm seeing so far.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Super Saiyan Goku 100

Android 17 150

Grade 2 Goku 150

Piccolo 150

Light Grenade 360?

Imperfect Cell Post 450

Semi Perfect Cell initial 772

SSJ Trunks 806

SSJ Vegeta 849

Semi Perfect Cell (FP) 868

Grade 3 Goku (FP) 1.000

Super Trunks 1,209

Super Vegeta 1,273

Perfect Cell (Warm Up) 10.075

Grade 3 Trunks 12.090

50% Goku 12.090

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Why is Grade 3 10x Grade 2 for Goku but 10x SSJ for Trunks?

 

[Goku9001]

Alright, I have my Freeza to Buu Saga numbers all complete except for this one area.

I've made some major adjustments to how strong the Buu Saga Base Saiyans are, so now I have so much room for this saga I'm unsure of what to do with it. We've always had to squeeze things to try to make the Base Saiyans somewhere around the Androids, but now, I have the Base Saiyans 10-20x above Android 18. Which is a complete game changer now. No need to nerf Light Grenade, Grade 3, or 50% Goku > All. This should be quite interesting.

Let's see how it goes on the first shot.


Super Saiyan Goku 150

Android 17 250

Grade 2 Goku 300

Piccolo 250
~ Light Grenade 500

Android 16 1,000

Imperfect Cell 1,000


Super Saiyan Trunks 2,400
Semi Cell 2,500
Super Saiyan Vegeta 2,500

Grade 3 Goku 3,000

Super Vegeta 5,000

Perfect Cell 12,500

Grade 3 Trunks 24,000

50% Goku 75,000

I tell you one thing, it is so so nice to not have to squeeze things. This went down rather easily and without much intense thought. Nice for a change.



Ok, so I went with a 2x boost for Grade 2 and a 10x boost for Grade 3. This looks quite interesting. The 10x boost for Grade 3 seems super necessary to get Grade 3 Goku > Semi Cell.

And I like that 50% Goku is so far ahead of Trunks as well, maybe it's a bit too much, but I like what I'm seeing so far.

Mine is pretty slick, check this out.


Super Saiyan Goku 100

Android 17 160

Grade 2 Goku 250

Piccolo 160
~ Light Grenade 256

Android 16 360

Imperfect Cell 360


Super Saiyan Trunks 900
Super Saiyan Vegeta 960
Semi Cell 900
~ Full Power 1,200

Grade 3 Goku 1,000

Super Vegeta 2,400

Perfect Cell 7,200

Grade 3 Trunks 9,000

50% Goku 20,000

 

[FeatsofPower]

Why is Grade 3 10x Grade 2 for Goku but 10x SSJ for Trunks?

Didn’t catch that nice

 

[FeatsofPower]

Piccolo 160
~ Light Grenade 256

This ain’t it though brother

 

[Goku9001]

This ain’t it though brother

How come brother? My numbers are flawless.

 

[FeatsofPower]

How come brother? My numbers are flawless.

I take issue with Light Grenade being reduced to a 1.6x multiplier. What's up with that brah

 

[Goku9001]

I take issue with Light Grenade being reduced to a 1.6x multiplier. What's up with that brah

What is the problem with that?

 

[FeatsofPower]

What is the problem with that?

Don't you go by Kamehameha at 2.22x?

 

[Goku9001]

Don't you go by Kamehameha at 2.22x?

No. Blasts were never suggested to be multiplicative. That's something assumed by the fans.

 

[FeatsofPower]

No. Blasts were never suggested to be multiplicative. That's something assumed by the fans.

So on a Monday, Goku can make a Kamehameha with a total of 10,000 and Tuesday, it’s only 5,000?

 

[Kyo]

It’s most reasonable to assume they’re multiplicative (key words are “reasonable” and “assume,” before anyone strawmans me for muh headcanon). “Amplified” blasts are formed by focusing ki into a small point and firing it. So when Goku is 500 and fires a regular blast, he shoots the ki out of his hand and it registers at 500. If he takes the ki that he can output all around his body and draws it into one point between his hands, he can make a blast that’s 1000. Now suppose Goku is 1000. If, for example, blasts are additive (another explanation, but not the only alternate one) and Goku hasn’t yet improved his KHH amplification, would his KHH be 1500? But this would actually mean that he’s gotten worse at focusing his regular ki output into a small point. He has more overall output, but he can’t draw on as much of it anymore? Why?

It’s like taking a round of dough that’s 0.5 inches thick, and smashing it into a small ball that’s thicker around a smaller surface area — let’s just say 4 inches thick, measuring up from the countertop, no idea if that math makes sense but that’s not the point. If I had another round of dough of double thickness (1 inch), and smashed that together the same way, wouldn’t the ball be twice as thick as the previous one — 8 inches thick? Or would you calculate, say, the difference in thickness between ball 1 and round 1 — that’s 3.5 inches — and say that dough 2’s thickness delta must be the same, resulting in a ball thickness of 4.5 inches? Of course not...unless you smashed it less, just like Goku’s ability to draw his ki together would randomly have to get worse if you assume amps aren’t multiplicative (seeing as how the result of assuming they aren’t multiplicative results in smaller quotients between blast/fighter over time in people’s lists every single time).

 

[FeatsofPower]

It’s most reasonable to assume they’re multiplicative (key words are “reasonable” and “assume,” before anyone strawmans me for muh headcanon). “Amplified” blasts are formed by focusing ki into a small point and firing it. So when Goku is 500 and fires a regular blast, he shoots the ki out of his hand and it registers at 500. If he takes the ki that he can output all around his body and draws it into one point between his hands, he can make a blast that’s 1000. Now suppose Goku is 1000. If, for example, blasts are additive (another explanation, but not the only alternate one) and Goku hasn’t yet improved his KHH amplification, would his KHH be 1500? But this would actually mean that he’s gotten worse at focusing his regular ki output into a small point. He has more overall output, but he can’t draw on as much of it anymore? Why?

Exactly.

I think I need to hear someone out on their additive theory first, because all types of explanations that have been tried don't seem to make sense when you actually give the specifics of it. I know I've tried to make it work in the past but it was a massive failure.

So until I hear a better explanation, multiplication has always been the most reasonable option. Until we get a better theory, it's the one I stick with.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Some problems I'm running into.

So the stronger you make Semi Cell/Imperfect Cell over Ssj Goku and Piccolo, the larger the Grade 3 multiplier has to be.

I don't really like Grade 3 Trunks being so overwhelmingly more powerful than Cell, because that makes you need to make Cell's buff boost really strong too, which makes his boost against Gohan later something to keep in mind but I'm trying to limit the spacing between Cell and Gohan to around 50% or so.

Then, I have 50% Goku so tremendously power it's a bit jarring. About 10x stronger than Trunks if not more. Seems to be way too much... But I don't know if it can be avoided. The Base Saiyan > Kaioshin > Piccolo chain really does seem to dictate it.

 

[Hector]

Imperfect Cell can be as strong as the Light Grenade, since he got superficial damage from it.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Imperfect Cell can be as strong as the Light Grenade, since he got superficial damage from it.

Blasts on equal power level strike fear into the heart of an opponent. The way Cell casually walks up to it, completely unguarded, shows us that he's most likely vastly superior.

It's one of the biggest signs of dominance the series has ever created. To minimize this gap would be an error imo, one that majority of the fandom has always committed.

Cell is massively superior to the Light Grenade.

 

[SIAD]

@FeatsofPower
And what happens to the possibility of Goku becoming stronger in all his forms when he obtains the USSJ?

What happens if Piccolo (Post Rosat) indeed reaches a level close to that of Perfect Cell (Suppressed against Vegeta) and Goku SSJ (50%) turns out to be many decades of times stronger than Future Trunks USSJ? The Base Saiyans could be much more powerful than Piccolo in Arc Boo and Piccolo wouldn't need to be nerfed.

 

[FeatsofPower]

@FeatsofPower
And what happens to the possibility of Goku becoming stronger in all his forms when he obtains the USSJ?

Yeah, we most likely are going to have to go that route. I'm trying to really figure out the max spacing I want for the Grade 3 multiplier. I think it's 4x, anything more than that doesn't feel right to me...

Super Saiyan Trunks 37.5
Super Saiyan Vegeta 40
Perfect Cell 100
Buff Trunks 150
Buff Cell 150

I think if I use a 4x Grade 3 boost and 2.5x Grade 2 boost while giving Goku some significant improvements to his Ssj form, I might be able to just make it.

It's crazy how easily it is to fill up the space to 50% Goku, even with a 10x increase in power from the numbers i've used before, I'm having very little issue closing the gap on him. Scary to think I was trying to make this fit with so little room before.

What happens if Piccolo (Post Rosat) indeed reaches a level close to that of Perfect Cell (Suppressed against Vegeta) and Goku SSJ (50%) turns out to be many decades of times stronger than Future Trunks USSJ? The Base Saiyans could be much more powerful than Piccolo in Arc Boo and Piccolo wouldn't need to be nerfed.

It's possible, but eventually it'll be too much. Remember, the boys base is tied to Android 18, so if you make the Base Adults Saiyans over 50x stronger, it's going to be weird to have the Ssj Boys weaker than the Base Adult Saiyans.

I have Piccolo merely doubling his power since his fight with Android 17 and it's already becoming problematic. Base Goku is 20x stronger than Buu Saga Piccolo already, and the base boys never catch Piccolo. I'd say I'm definitely at the limit of how strong they can be.

Remember, there's multiple factors here. The Base Saiyan power is tied to 18 as much as it is to Piccolo so Piccolo cannot be tremendously superior to 18.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Doesn’t Kaio-Ken prove Kamehameha isn’t a fix multiplier? Or are we going with the “KK negates amp” theory?

And what about Gingertown? Piccolo calls the Kamehameha weak, but with a >2x amp he’d have been fucked if it landed. There’s the argument about defensive Ki amp (Cell does raise his aura to take Piccolo’s GK), but that makes calculating Ki blasts pointless.