RoSaT Levels

[GreatSaiyaman123]

What is Goku’s Kamehameha amp in the Cell Games? Could it have blown up FP Cell?

 

[FeatsofPower]

Doesn’t Kaio-Ken prove Kamehameha isn’t a fix multiplier? Or are we going with the “KK negates amp” theory?

Seems the most likely, unless you think Vegeta’s Galicia Gun is tremendously stronger than the Kamehameha and for some reason is unable to vanquish Reecome for some reason.

The evidence points towards Kaioken Kamehameha amp being nerfed.

And what about Gingertown? Piccolo calls the Kamehameha weak, but with a >2x amp he’d have been fucked if it landed.

Which is why he has to be talking about a Kaioken Kamehameha amp while still also acknowledging progress being made with amp in general

 

[FeatsofPower]

What is Goku’s Kamehameha amp in the Cell Games? Could it have blown up FP Cell?

Vegeta’s amp seemed to give even SPC some caution. It seems likely that Gokus could at least put a little dust on him or something I’d say.

 

[Goku9001]

Assuming it's multiplicative is a reasonable assumption but the series has a strong tendency to clarify whether certain techniques are multiplicative or not. The only explanation we are given is that these techniques draw upon latent power and concentrates it around a particular point. None of that necessarily points towards ki blasts being multiplicative but I understand the reasoning behind it.

The real issue is that there are instances where assuming that it is multiplicative would blatantly contradict the series. Vegeta vs. Goku, Vegeta vs. Recoome, and Vegeta vs. Frieza would certainly be evidence that these blasts, if they are multiplicative, cannot have a significant multiplier or the scene in question wouldn't make sense. I think the series only clearly lays out that Goku's KHH and Piccolo's Makankosappo increased their battle power multifold. It may be because as the series progressed, the fighters could harness more of their battle power effectively so that it wasn't only relegated for ki blasts.

That would be my assumption given what we are shown later on. A 1.6x amplifier would seem more significant than whatever Vegeta did during the Frieza Saga or against Goku.

 

[Hector]

Blasts on equal power level strike fear into the heart of an opponent. The way Cell casually walks up to it, completely unguarded, shows us that he's most likely vastly superior.

It's one of the biggest signs of dominance the series has ever created. To minimize this gap would be an error imo, one that majority of the fandom has always committed.

Cell is massively superior to the Light Grenade.

I don't think his feat is anything superior to SSJ Goku tanking that huge blast from 50% Freeza. And that gap was about 2x, unless you go by Daiz.

 

[Kyo]

I think it’s reasonable to assume that Vegeta’s amplification in his early appearances is weak, considering that Raditz was around him a lot and wasn’t even familiar with the concept.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Don’t forget the Makkankosappo has the charging time weakness too.

Seems the most likely, unless you think Vegeta’s Galicia Gun is tremendously stronger than the Kamehameha and for some reason is unable to vanquish Reecome for some reason.

The evidence points towards Kaioken Kamehameha amp being nerfed.

Which is why he has to be talking about a Kaioken Kamehameha amp while still also acknowledging progress being made with amp in general

Why would Cell have a KK KHH amp without Kaio-Ken?

I think the idea of amped defense makes the most sense overall. See how Cell has his aura flared up - he braced himself for it.

 

[Goku9001]

I think it’s reasonable to assume that Vegeta’s amplification in his early appearances is weak, considering that Raditz was around him a lot and wasn’t even familiar with the concept.

He chastised the Frieza force for focusing too much on power than control and demonstrated the ability to suppress his ki completely. This was something both Goku and Piccolo did not demonstrate until the Saiyan Saga.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Vegeta even pulling off an amp is weird overall. He’s flat out bewildered by any kind of power level change without transformations.

 

[ahill1]

Super Saiyan Goku 100

Android 17 150

Grade 2 Goku 140

Piccolo 150
~ Light Grenade 200
(Piccolo was already exhausted)

Android 16 250

Imperfect Cell 250


Super Saiyan Trunks 462
Semi Cell 500 (initially : 420)
Super Saiyan Vegeta 485

Grade 3 Goku 300

Super Vegeta 680

Perfect Cell 1,200

Grade 3 Trunks 1,400

50% Goku 1,200


That obviously wouldn't work for Goku as his grade 3 should be above initial Semi Cell. However, if I assume SSJ Goku had gotten a good deal stronger since some time had passed in the RoSaT already, it can be manageable (initial Semi Cell is 420 to me).

SSJ Goku (post a little in the rosat) : 166
--- SSJg3 : 500

That already works with Gohan's statement. I'm not blind to the idea of Goku having already achieved some power in SSJ. Iirc Gohan stated there is some time or days I dunno, that Goku has spent sitting there... he didn't say the whole time iirc. And I like to keep the SSJG3 as 3x, the same one more or less I've for SSj2, since I see SSJG3 being kind of the wrong way to access the SSJ2 power, and the mastering of the SSJ being what allowed them to access that buffed power without the speed and stamina disadvantages.

However, if Goku remained the same, then his power would be brought up to 500, making the SSJg3 a 5x multiplier more or less. I'm not close off to the idea of also making the SSJ2 a 5x multiplier, but I think 2.5x ~ 3x is plenty enough. Gohan would get a 3x one in the CGs due to his cherry on top rage boost and the remaining Saiyans, a 2.5x one.

 

[Goku9001]

Vegeta even pulling off an amp is weird overall. He’s flat out bewildered by any kind of power level change without transformations.

By the Frieza Saga, I don't really see why not.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

By the Frieza Saga, I don't really see why not.

Sure, it’s only the Saiyan Saga that’s the problem. He shouldn't have it but he seems to.

 

[FeatsofPower]

The real issue is that there are instances where assuming that it is multiplicative would blatantly contradict the series. Vegeta vs. Goku, Vegeta vs. Recoome, and Vegeta vs. Frieza would certainly be evidence that these blasts, if they are multiplicative, cannot have a significant multiplier or the scene in question wouldn't make sense.

Yeah, Galick Gun and Vegeta's other techniques on Namek being in line with the traditional Kamehameha amp should be appropriate. 1.33x or so seems to work out just fine for him.

That would be my assumption given what we are shown later on. A 1.6x amplifier would seem more significant than whatever Vegeta did during the Frieza Saga or against Goku.

You can definitely make that case, if Vegeta's amp is only 1.33x on Namek, then Piccolo using a 1.6x amp against Cell would be perfectly acceptable. Here's the problem with narrative though.

Super Saiyan Goku Kamehameha vs Nameless Namek Light Grenade...

SSJ Goku 150
~ Kamehameha 333

Piccolo 250
~ Light Grenade 400

Do you really think Piccolo needs to take his weights off to get a significant advantage over Goku's KHH? Shouldn't there be some semblance of balance between the characters and their amps?

If Vegeta does a Galick Gun vs Goku's KHH in the Androids Saga, does Goku easily win? If so, why isn't Goku just going into ki blast battles all the time since he has the advantage over the entire universe?

Piccolo 150
~ Light Grenade 200
(Piccolo was already exhausted)

So now he has a Freeza Saga level amp? The Nameless Namek, finally returning can only offer that? How does that make sense?

 

[Kyo]

Even Nappa talks about Goku brushing off his "best technique." What made it better than all your other ones, Nappa? Maybe it just comes out real fast.

 

[ahill1]

Piccolo was weakened

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Even Nappa talks about Goku brushing off his "best technique." What made it better than all your other ones, Nappa? Maybe it just comes out real fast.

You know how wrestlers got their super atomic mega sunday punch?

 

[Kyo]

You know how wrestlers got their super atomic mega sunday punch?

Nappa can't steal the Ginyus' gimmick like that!

 

[Goku9001]

Even Nappa talks about Goku brushing off his "best technique." What made it better than all your other ones, Nappa? Maybe it just comes out real fast.

Yeah Nappa is honestly pretty pathetic.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Anyway, point here is that the blast wouldn't raise his power level just like serious punches don't raise his power level compared to a holding-back punch. Power levels are a very superficial measure.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

SSJ Goku: 480
~ ASSJ: 720
~ USSJ: 4,800

Kamiccolo/Android 17: 800

Imperfect Cell/Android 16: 1,600

Semi Cell: 3,200
~ FP: 3,750

SSJ Vegeta: 3,500
~ ASSJ: 5,250

SSJ Trunks: 3,300
~ ASSJ: 4,950
~ USSJ: 33,000

Perfect Cell: 10,800

MSSJ Goku (50%): 112,500