RoSaT Levels

[FeatsofPower]

SSJ Goku: 480
~ ASSJ: 720

How do you expect a 1.5x boost to work? I can't even get a 2x boost to work. I think Grade 2 is going to have to be a mandatory 2.5x boost to really get enough space for Goku to surpass Semi Cell.

Kamiccolo/Android 17: 800

Imperfect Cell/Android 16: 1,600

You already know what I'm going to ask. Where is it? Why are you hiding it? This is the gap that is minimized the most in all of DB history. Let's see your Light Grenade amp so I can tear this gap to shreds

~ USSJ: 33,000

Perfect Cell: 10,800

MSSJ Goku (50%): 112,500

Whoa. I haven't seen this wide of disparity yet, but I'm becoming more open to it, I use to keep these gaps tiny because I had to make Goku around the Androids level. Now that I'm doing it, I'm uncomfortable with the amount of space I now have.

But I do think that Mssj Goku can be way stronger than Warm Up Goku who should match Cell. Warm Up Goku is probably like 10-15% of Goku's full power I'd say. So I'm interested in how that plays out.

All that space though, my goodness, don't you feel naked?

 

[FeatsofPower]

Ok let's try again.

Ssj Goku 150

Ssj Goku Rosat 200

Piccolo 250

Grade 2 Goku 500

Light Grenade 500

Imperfect Cell 1,000

Ssj Trunks 2,400
Semi Cell 2,500
Ssj Vegeta 2,600
Grade 3 Goku 3,000

Grade 2 Trunks 6,000
Grade 2 Vegeta 6,500

Perfect Cell 15,000

Grade 3 Trunks 36,000

50% Goku 75,000


Ok, We are making some progress. This is looking quite good actually. I'm starting to see it now. There's so much space, it can be filled for sure, but it has to be done properly. I hate the 6k numbers for the Grade forms right now, but that's where they line up for now. Maybe Grade 2 being a 3x boost might work better?

Grade 3 being a 6x boost look pretty good, but 5x would probably be better.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

How do you expect a 1.5x boost to work? I can't even get a 2x boost to work. I think Grade 2 is going to have to be a mandatory 2.5x boost to really get enough space for Goku to surpass Semi Cell.

Well it just did. I decided to play around with a lesser boost so as to not clash with SSJ2 and it worked nicely. Semi Cell’s power-up isn’t anything to write home about.

You already know what I'm going to ask. Where is it? Why are you hiding it? This is the gap that is minimized the most in all of DB history. Let's see your Light Grenade amp so I can tear this gap to shreds

Already covered that in earlier posts within this thread. If they can raise their power to attack, why not for defense?

All that space though, my goodness, don't you feel naked?

It helps me a lot to remember 1st form Freeza vs Captain Ginyu is even larger. Just look at how massive 50% Goku was: The whole place shaking, the reactions, USSJ Trunks doesn’t feel anywhere near that. And clean 10x between warm up Goku and 50% Goku feels kinda nice.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Well it just did. I decided to play around with a lesser boost so as to not clash with SSJ2 and it worked nicely. Semi Cell’s power-up isn’t anything to write home about.

You didn't though because you completely nerfed Imperfect Cell lol

Already covered that in earlier posts within this thread. If they can raise their power to attack, why not for defense?

I need to see consistency. Show me the other examples of this and their "defensive" levels.

It helps me a lot to remember 1st form Freeza vs Captain Ginyu is even larger. Just look at how massive 50% Goku was: The whole place shaking, the reactions, USSJ Trunks doesn’t feel anywhere near that. And clean 10x between warm up Goku and 50% Goku feels kinda nice.

Don't know if I'll go that far, but yeah, I was thinking the same. The scene is no joke, he's blowing away everyone in power. 10x is probably too much for me and anyone who actually takes Cell's feats seriously on the Light Grenade. Dude casually walked through a massively fired up attack from Piccolo unlike anyone else in the series.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I need to see consistency. Show me the other examples of this and their "defensive" levels.

Barriers are the most obvious example, along with Goku tanking Gohan’s kick with a lot of effort. Goku and Piccolo blocking each other’s super charged attacks always comes up.

Don't know if I'll go that far, but yeah, I was thinking the same. The scene is no joke, he's blowing away everyone in power. 10x is probably too much for me and anyone who actually takes Cell's feats seriously on the Light Grenade. Dude casually walked through a massively fired up attack from Piccolo unlike anyone else in the series.

Piccolo does take a couple blows from Cell, so I don’t think he’s 10x weaker here. Cell’s not exactly playing around.

Just noticed you have the GK multiplier at 2x. Shouldn’t it be over 2.22x since Piccolo called Saiyan Saga KHH trash? Your theory about Cell getting Kaio-Ken KHH amp makes no sense.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I think I cracked it @FeatsofPower

SSJ Goku: 480
~ ASSJ: 960
~ USSJ: 9,600

Piccolo: 800
~ Light Grenade: 2,000

Imperfect Cell: 3,000

Semi Cell: 6,000
~ FP: 7,500

SSJ Vegeta: 6,250
~ ASSJ: 12,500

SSJ Trunks: 6,000
~ ASSJ: 12,000
~ USSJ: 120,000

SSJ Goku (50%): 225,000

Or is 10x ASSJ too much?

 

[FeatsofPower]

Barriers are the most obvious example, along with Goku tanking Gohan’s kick with a lot of effort. Goku and Piccolo blocking each other’s super charged attacks always comes up.

Where's the "lot of effort" from Cell my guy. Bro is going out on a stroll in the park.

Piccolo does take a couple blows from Cell, so I don’t think he’s 10x weaker here. Cell’s not exactly playing around.

Cell is 100% playing with his food here. He broke Piccolo's neck with a casual punch.

SSJ Goku: 480
~ ASSJ: 960
~ USSJ: 9,600

Piccolo: 800
~ Light Grenade: 2,000

Imperfect Cell: 3,000

Ok this is much better.

SSJ Vegeta: 6,250
~ ASSJ: 12,500

SSJ Trunks: 6,000
~ ASSJ: 12,000
~ USSJ: 120,000

SSJ Goku (50%): 225,000

Looking good, just where is Cell?

Or is 10x ASSJ too much?

It does feel a bit too much to me, but it's definitely doable. I'd prefer more like 5x or so. I think I love 4x the most, but remember, it's all about how much you think Cell can Buff up. So you gotta start including that.

I think I might try to go bigger on the Grade 2 boost to cut back on the Grade 3 boost, but then Semi Cell has to power up a lot which I don't like.

It's a delicate balancing act.

I'm definitley for the 2.5x boost for Grade 2, but that runs you into errors with your Ssj2 boost.

Bro I had no idea this thing was going to be complex like this. Definitely nothing like the Androids Saga stuff we suffered with for months, but this is going to get a bit tricky.

We see 10x is almost required to Grade 3 if you give Imperfect Cell and Semi Cell the suggested increases they deserve. But then 10x feels so much for Trunks over Cell.

And then if you go too small, then Grade 3 Trunks is a straight up chump to 50% Goku.

There's definitely the right balance somewhere, we just gotta keep tweaking it.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Super Saiyan Goku 2,000

Piccolo 2,500

Light Grenade 5,000

Grade 2 Goku 6,000

Imperfect Cell 10,000

Semi Cell 25,000
Ssj Vegeta 25,000


Semi Cell FP 50,000
Grade 2 Vegeta 75,000

Perfect Cell 250,000

Grade 3 Trunks 375,000

50% Goku 750,000



Hmm, I went 3x boost for Grade 2 and 5x boost for Grade 3 and got som really good results.

Semi Cell doubles his power which I don't love, and Super Vegeta is 30% of Perfect Cell while Android 16 is 40%, but it's looking like this is a good option.

Grade 3 Trunks is half and Cell is 1.5 weaker than Trunks.

There's a lot of good here I see. The numbers are quite clean too.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

SSJ Goku: 480
~ Rosat: 720
~ ASSJ: 1,440
~ USSJ: 7,200

Piccolo: 800
~ Light Grenade: 2,000

Cell: 3,000
~ 2nd form: 6,000

SSJ Vegeta: 6,250
~ ASSJ: 12,500
~ Final Flash: 37,500

Perfect Cell: 25,000

SSJ Trunks: 6,000
~ ASSJ: 12,000
~ USSJ: 60,000

SSJ Goku (50%): 112,500

This is it. Just give Goku a little bump in the Rosat and everything falls in place.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

It’s most reasonable to assume they’re multiplicative (key words are “reasonable” and “assume,” before anyone strawmans me for muh headcanon). “Amplified” blasts are formed by focusing ki into a small point and firing it. So when Goku is 500 and fires a regular blast, he shoots the ki out of his hand and it registers at 500. If he takes the ki that he can output all around his body and draws it into one point between his hands, he can make a blast that’s 1000. Now suppose Goku is 1000. If, for example, blasts are additive (another explanation, but not the only alternate one) and Goku hasn’t yet improved his KHH amplification, would his KHH be 1500? But this would actually mean that he’s gotten worse at focusing his regular ki output into a small point. He has more overall output, but he can’t draw on as much of it anymore? Why?

It’s like taking a round of dough that’s 0.5 inches thick, and smashing it into a small ball that’s thicker around a smaller surface area — let’s just say 4 inches thick, measuring up from the countertop, no idea if that math makes sense but that’s not the point. If I had another round of dough of double thickness (1 inch), and smashed that together the same way, wouldn’t the ball be twice as thick as the previous one — 8 inches thick? Or would you calculate, say, the difference in thickness between ball 1 and round 1 — that’s 3.5 inches — and say that dough 2’s thickness delta must be the same, resulting in a ball thickness of 4.5 inches? Of course not...unless you smashed it less, just like Goku’s ability to draw his ki together would randomly have to get worse if you assume amps aren’t multiplicative (seeing as how the result of assuming they aren’t multiplicative results in smaller quotients between blast/fighter over time in people’s lists every single time).

It’s not that his ability to concentrate his Ki lessens, but that the gap between his normal power and his total Ki has lessened. Notice how Ki was hardly a factor in the beginning of the series, only becoming a factor when charging Ki attacks.

As the series progresses and Ki becomes the main source of their power, Ki attacks aren’t such a big deal anymore. The Kamehameha isn’t Goku’s final attack but just something he throws alongside his punches and kicks with similar results. These guys don’t need special moves to unleash their full power anymore.

 

[FeatsofPower]

As the series progresses and Ki becomes the main source of their power, Ki attacks aren’t such a big deal anymore. The Kamehameha isn’t Goku’s final attack but just something he throws alongside his punches and kicks with similar results. These guys don’t need special moves to unleash their full power anymore.

This doesn’t to be appear to be true. Kamehameha becomes far more deadly by the end of the series. Did you see what Kamehameha and Final Flash did to Cell?

There’s quick charge ki blast and then the ki blast that’s full throttle, their ki amp has gone drastically up.

 

[Animelover5487]

SSJ Goku: 480
~ ASSJ: 720
~ USSJ: 4,800

Kamiccolo/Android 17: 800

Imperfect Cell/Android 16: 1,600

Semi Cell: 3,200
~ FP: 3,750

SSJ Vegeta: 3,500
~ ASSJ: 5,250

SSJ Trunks: 3,300
~ ASSJ: 4,950
~ USSJ: 33,000

Perfect Cell: 10,800

MSSJ Goku (50%): 112,500

Didn't Korin say that Cell was stronger than 50% MSSJ? Cell made no power ups after folding Vegeta abd even if you want to argue Korin was talking about an estimated FP Cell there is nothing to suggest Korin knew Cell was holding back to under 10% power

 

[FeatsofPower]

He’s talking about an estimated FP Cell who’s worlds above what he just showed

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

This doesn’t to be appear to be true. Kamehameha becomes far more deadly by the end of the series. Did you see what Kamehameha and Final Flash did to Cell?

There’s quick charge ki blast and then the ki blast that’s full throttle, their ki amp has gone drastically up.

Hard to tell because both Cell and Boo have regeneration so they don’t need to bother, but Goku was rivaling Cell so it doesn’t count. The surprise factor was obviously a big deal, otherwise he wouldn’t have needed IT.

Vegeta couldn’t do anything against 18, Cell couldn’t do anything to Piccolo, Vegeta or Gohan… Do you have numbers for Cell’s Kamehameha vs Gohan’s? The one fr FP Cell, not SPC. Gohan must’ve had some amp since he didn’t just slap it away or use a normal blast right?

Ki blasts are just so lame most of the time. Just a couple feats placing some special them up there.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Look Feats I really want to agree you here, it’s the obvious conclusion, but it smells so fishy. Specially because of how you’re ignoring the Gingertown fight to make this work. There’s only 3-4 attacks that are really that strong and everything else is forgettable.

Something that works with the additive theory (or something akin to it) is their need to constantly invent new techniques. Saiyan Saga Kamehameha is the first clue, because a >2x boost never becomes pathetic, but adding not even 1k BP points is. Goku creates the Super Kamehameha, and presumably has to improve it every time he trains.

And then there’s Vegeta’s techniques: He keeps inventing new techniques because the older ones become obsolete. Garlic Gun is comparable to Kamehameha, but it’s 1.5x at best. BBA > GG, but it’s forgettable. Final Flash is his only super strong technique, and I think Daizenshuu 7 even talks about it having special properties like the SBC.

Also, I’ve done some research and Piccolo’s blast is literally some generic unnamed blast in the series. I think this at least shows it doesn’t have to be > SBC.

 

[Kyo]

It's unnamed, but there's no reason he wouldn't use his strongest attack there. Though you can get away with making it < SBC because he knows Cell would regenerate from SBC.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

It's unnamed, but there's no reason he wouldn't use his strongest attack there. Though you can get away with making it < SBC because he knows Cell would regenerate from SBC.

Agreed, it’s definitely better than the Masenko, but that had a lame ass amp. SBC had the charging time problem too.

Let’s just call it a 1.5x amp and to hell with it.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Piccolos Light Grenade has to match Android Era Kamehameha.

 

[FeatsofPower]

I think I got it now.

Super Saiyan Goku 200

Piccolo 250
~ Light Grenade 375

Super Goku 600

Imperfect Cell 750

Super Saiyan Trunks 2,400
Semi Cell 2,500
Super Saiyan Vegeta 2,500

Ultra Goku 3,000

Semi Cell 4,500

Perfect Cell (Holding Back) 6,750
Super Trunks 7,200
Super Vegeta 7,500

Perfect Cell 25,000

Ultra Trunks 35,000

Buff Cell 37,500

50% Goku 75,000

That 1.5x Light Grenade changed the game. I was just bagging on Kyo for it and now I'm using it. But yeah, ki amp appears to be quite trashy.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

It’s Gingertown Cell man. If not for him I’d be totally on board with the 3x amp. Light Grenade being Piccolo’s Cell Saga Kamehameha makes perfect sense.