Roshi’s FP Kamehameha runs the Piccolo gauntlet

[GSM123]

Piccolo stands and tries to tank it. How does he fare?

Round 1: <40% Old Daimao
Round 2: FP Old Daimao
Round 3: Prime Daimao
Round 4: 23rd Budokai Ma Jr

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Treating the moon feat as an outlier (which seems the far more preferable option), he vaporises 40% Piccolo Daimao, but loses to his old FP self considering he still viewed the Mafuba as a more viable option.

If not treat as an outlier, then he clears the gauntlet when considering 23rd TB Piccolo's best attack was only capable of Small Country levels of destruction.

 

[GSM123]

Why would it be an outlier?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

The timeframe of the events would suggest the Kamehameha only took seconds to reach the moon, which is far faster than any pre-Z feat such as 23rd TB Piccolo's Ki blasts taking similar time to go over a mountain range.
That, and official sources treating Moon Busting as something only someone at BoZ Piccolo's level or above can do, such as specifically pointing out Goku's Super Kamehameha as something that can destroy the Moon.

 

[GSM123]

[mention]Captain Cadaver[/mention] what’s the issue with the blast’s speed?

I don’t see how it being a big deal means it was retconed/an outlier. Piccolo also made a big deal out of Goku and Freeza being capable of destroying the world, even though even Saiyan Arc Vegeta (And arguably even BoZ Piccolo) could do that. Unless you think those were also outliers?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

@Captain Cadaver what’s the issue with the blast’s speed?

For the most part, speed correlates with power, which would suggest Roshi's Kamehameha should be on par with BoZ Piccolo if so. Also, the framing of the scene where he destroyed Mount Fry Pan in conjunction with the character reactions would suggest it took more than just a split second to reach that distance, which would weaken the idea of it having Sub-Relativistic speed and, thus, the whole moon feat in general. You also have Popo's "quicker than lightning" statement which would show that those below his level aren't surpassing MHS speed.

I don’t see how it being a big deal means it was retconed/an outlier. Piccolo also made a big deal out of Goku and Freeza being capable of destroying the world, even though even Saiyan Arc Vegeta (And arguably even BoZ Piccolo) could do that. Unless you think those were also outliers?

Not exactly the same situation. Throughout most of Z, Planet Busting was practically the pinnacle when it came to power. If not treating Roshi's moon bust as an outlier whilst also treating the form as weaker than Daimao, that would make most of Part 1's high tiers Moon level, despite official sources only bringing up Moon busting in terms of power for 300+ battle powers, whilst only bothering to mention Daimao's City busting as a testament of his.

 

[Animelover5487]

Could it be possible that Roshi just has an uber powerful buff form that he never uses in battle due to power strain/lack of speed like 100% Freeza and the third staged SSJ?

I mean, it was heavily implied that Roshi would have killed Oozaru Goku if his Kamehameha hit him. That would mean his manly form is an over ten times multiplier, putting his power level over 1,390. Several times stronger than Daimao and Early Z Goku/Piccolo.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Could it be possible that Roshi just has an uber powerful buff form that he never uses in battle due to power strain/lack of speed like 100% Freeza and the third staged SSJ?

It could, though that's still questionable at best when he didn't even bother to use it against Daimao in favour of a technique he knew would probably kill him. You also have the Roshi not long from after destroying the moon stating he'd be unsure if he could take the whole RRA, despite an attack that can completely destroy the moon certainly having the power, speed and range to do so.

I mean, it was heavily implied that Roshi would have killed Oozaru Goku if his Kamehameha hit him. That would mean his manly form is an over ten times multiplier,

That's only if inserting scouter numbers and their logic into Part 1, which isn't exactly a solid route when there are several statements contradicting the kind of gaps scouter numbers dictate.
Looking purely at the feats we're presented, Oozaru Goku's best feats were just Large Building level, which even the likes of Taopaipai is capable of. Also, despite having already seen the true power of Roshi's Kamehameha Goku still didn't treat it as the pinnacle of power in later arcs.

putting his power level over 1,390.

Only for a hypothetical Manly GAINZ BoZ Roshi. His 21st TB self was far weaker, and it's kind of arguable if Oozaru Goku would even be 10x Base Roshi from a scouter perspective when he was heavily fatigued.

 

[ahill1]

I had also a nice theory that the scouter took all the power available in Roshi into account when registering him as 139 (aka his buff state), as a scouter is supposed to read a fighter's full power even when they aren't actively exerting themselves (should read Vegeta and Nappa at full power) and suppression didn't seem to be achieved until after the training with Kami, in which chi would be more well crafted.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I had also a nice theory that the scouter took all the power available in Roshi into account when registering him as 139 (aka his buff state), as a scouter is supposed to read a fighter's full power even when they aren't actively exerting themselves (should read Vegeta and Nappa at full power) and suppression didn't seem to be achieved until after the training with Kami, in which chi would be more well crafted.

That wouldn't make much sense with how scouters are shown to work though, given how the scouters don't take into account things such as Kaioken or the Kamehameha amp unless it's actually being used.

 

[GSM123]

@Captain Cadaver what’s the issue with the blast’s speed?

For the most part, speed correlates with power, which would suggest Roshi's Kamehameha should be on par with BoZ Piccolo if so. Also, the framing of the scene where he destroyed Mount Fry Pan in conjunction with the character reactions would suggest it took more than just a split second to reach that distance, which would weaken the idea of it having Sub-Relativistic speed and, thus, the whole moon feat in general. You also have Popo's "quicker than lightning" statement which would show that those below his level aren't surpassing MHS speed.

I don’t see how it being a big deal means it was retconed/an outlier. Piccolo also made a big deal out of Goku and Freeza being capable of destroying the world, even though even Saiyan Arc Vegeta (And arguably even BoZ Piccolo) could do that. Unless you think those were also outliers?

Not exactly the same situation. Throughout most of Z, Planet Busting was practically the pinnacle when it came to power. If not treating Roshi's moon bust as an outlier whilst also treating the form as weaker than Daimao, that would make most of Part 1's high tiers Moon level, despite official sources only bringing up Moon busting in terms of power for 300+ battle powers, whilst only bothering to mention Daimao's City busting as a testament of his.

So an older feat invalidates the newer one, and not the other way around?

Popo was mostly refering to the speed in which they move, not the traveling speed of their blasts.

What if Roshi’s Kamehameha isn’t weaker than Daimao then?

It’s also worth noting guidebooks such as Daizenshuu 2 and the EML reckon Roshi’s moon busting feat, so doubtful it was just ignored later on.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

So an older feat invalidates the newer one, and not the other way around?

It's case by case with what seems most consistent, and Roshi's Kamehameha certainly isn't consistent with other Part 1 feats.

Popo was mostly refering to the speed in which they move, not the traveling speed of their blasts.

Combat speed and beam travelling speed should be about equal, otherwise nobody would be able to outspeed a Kamehameha if they were solidly Sub-Relativistic by the time of the 23rd TB and being quicker than lightning was still a big deal.

What if Roshi’s Kamehameha isn’t weaker than Daimao then?

It’s also worth noting guidebooks such as Daizenshuu 2 and the EML reckon Roshi’s moon busting feat, so doubtful it was just ignored later on.

That'd support Roshi being able to solo Part 1 then.

However, you also have Goku's Super Kamehameha being stated to surpass it in the Daizenshuu and Piccolo's Chobakuretsumaha being implied to correlate its power with its range, which was only Small Country level, so you're not going to have 100% consistency either way.

 

[GSM123]

The Daizenshuu 2 entry is basically a Catch-22 it seems. It both supports and denies Roshi being moon level. Might as well call it Schrödinger’s Kamehameha

Nobody ever tried to outspeed Roshi’s Kamehameha, so there isn’t a problem with it being the fastest move in Part I.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Without specific exceptions of naturally fast fighters or certain forms, however, speed and power tend to correlate linearly though, so Roshi's Moon Bust would be every much a Catch 22 even when looking at only the speed.

 

[GSM123]

Also, the blast being that fast would kind of dismantle any reason Roshi would have not to use against Piccolo. If it had the power AND the speed to kill Piccolo, he’d have fired it on Daimao.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

To be fair, I can see the point being made that Roshi would take a while to actually fire it, though that seems like a weak excuse when Daimao was arrogant enough to just stand there when Galu fired the Kamehameha after realising it wasn't the Mafuba.

So yeah, more evidence supporting the moon bust being an outlier than going against it.

 

[GSM123]

[mention]Captain Cadaver[/mention] what about the feat being accurate and Daimao being above moon level? He did threaten to destroy the planet, after all.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

He made it clear that the context of the statement was through systematically destroying cities, backed up by the Daizenshuu comparing his city busting power to a nuke. There's also the problem of Piccolo's Chobakuretsumaha seemingly having equivalent power to range.