Scaling Late Baby Saga & More

[Dagon]

I just went through the GT episodes with Golden Great Ape Baby-Vegeta and there are frustratingly few statements to put a concrete number on his power.

Right away I'll dismiss the 10,000x GGA multiplier as it is based off of an assumption that a 1,000x increase in Blutz waves for Baby-Vegeta translates to a power 1,000x greater than regular Great Ape. Tuffle-Bulma quite clearly said that the point was to overcome Baby-Vegeta's lack of a tail to achieve "great ape" form. It's also a post hoc ergo propter hoc(after this, therefore because of this) fallacy to claim that the power of the transformation is directly proportional to the degree of amplification.

It's also a long-standing bit of misinformation that the Earth gave off more blutz waves than Earth's moon to cause a Golden Great Ape transformation. This comes from an old site run by a fan who knew some Japanese but made some mistakes. The show itself says the Earth substituded for a moon, that the Earth gives off the same wavelenth of Blutz waves as the Earth's moon, and we even see the Blutz wave count from Earth shown on Bulma's meter, which matches the description of "over 17,000z" given by Bulma and Baby-Vegeta.

Furthermore, guides state that a Golden Oozaru is the result of a Super Saiyan becoming a Great Ape. This doesn't mean the multipliers are SSJ x GA, just that they are prerequisites for achieving a Golden Great Ape form. We see both Goku and Vegeta becoming brown apes first before they become golden, showing that the golden fur is secondary to the form, not intrinsic.

As for the show itself, once Baby-Vegeta becomes Golden Great Ape, we get very generalized statements about how he and SSJ4 Goku compare.

When Goku becomes GGA, Baby-Vegeta is overpowered with Baby-Vegeta using his brains to try to one-up Goku. GGA Goku's superiority over Baby-Vegeta Strongest Form 2 is noted and quite clearly presented. Pan also notes that GGA Goku's ki is rising, though the extent is not quantified.

Based on base/SSJ Baby-Vegeta already being at least competitive if not superior to SSJ3 Goku, then powering up with two forms resembling SSJ2 and SSJ3, it's reasonable that GGA is 10x SSJ3.

Goku vs Baby-Vegeta:

Goku:
~Base: 1
~SSJ: 50
~SSJ2: 100
~SSJ3: 400
~GGA: 4,000

Baby-Vegeta: 450(12.5% difference given as a callback to KKx2 Goku vs full power Vegeta in the Vegeta saga.)
~Strongest Form 1: 900
~Strongest Form 2: 3,600

Going forward, initial SSJ4 Goku seemingly matches Baby-Vegeta SF2, though this is just Goku holding back as Elder Kaioshin said Goku wasn't using even a smidgen/fraction of his power(depending on what kind of subtitles you're using).

With Baby-Vegeta's Golden Great Ape form, we should reasonably expect at least a 10x increase over SF2 based on prior scaling. This is there things get murky as the fights with GGA Baby-Vegeta and SSJ4 Goku offer somewhat contradictory statements.

Initially, GGA Baby-Vegeta is stated to have a power advantage over SSJ4 Goku while Goku has a speed advantage. This is disproven when Goku is able to break out of GGA Baby-Vegeta's grip and flip him, with Goku afterwards saying Baby can't win.

GGA Baby-Vegeta fires a Super Galick Gun at Earth, which Goku tries to intercept but his blast can't reach Baby-Vegeta's in time before it hits the Earth. In retaliation, Goku fires a x10 Kamehameha at Baby-Vegeta, which seems ineffective at first but is later revealed to have had more effect on Baby's power rather than his health.

Goku and GGA Baby-Vegeta then land knockout blows against each other and remain down for a while. Tuffle-Bulma restores GGA Baby- Vegeta to full power with the Blutz wave generator, and Goku gets up, bluffing that he can take Baby-Vegeta when he's actually on his last leg with only enough power for one regular Kamehameha as explained by Elder Kaioshin.

The GT perfect files claim that GGA Baby-Vegeta's power was doubled, though the episodes themselves, both the characters and the narrator, say that GGA Baby-Vegeta was simply restored to full power. The best reconciliation is that Baby-Vegeta was reduced to half power and then restored to full power.

At this point Goku gets ragdolled and later receives ki from Gohan, Goten, Trunks, and Pan while Uub holds off Baby-Vegeta from inside his body. Baby-Vegeta spits out Uub and fires a Super Galick Gun at the group, but Goku and co. survive, with Goku having achieved his full power in Super Saiyan 4, what's called Super Full Power Saiyan 4 in other material.

Considering Goku's confidence in his full power over GGA BV, a minimum of 10x GGA would be enough to eclipse GGA BV's power here.

So for the rest of the Baby fight:

GGA Baby-Vegeta: 36,000(minimum)

SSJ4 Goku:
~suppressed: 3,600
~Raised effort: ~32,000
~Full Power: 40,000

So here we get a level 100x SSJ3 as a lowball.

SSJ4 in recent material is generally portrayed on SSJB's level in terms of multiplier as several fights have SSJ4 users being competitive with SSJB users. With SSJB being SSJ combined with SSJG it should be 50x SSJG, which is an undefined multiplier.

DBS: Broly suggests a non-ritual SSJG power-up of no more than 10x SSJ3 based on Ikari Broly(who has Oozaru power in human form) tanking a punch from SSJG Vegeta, who definitely was not holding back as Vegeta said it's no time to be playing around due to Broly's rampaging threatening the Earth.

If we lowball SSJG it might work, bringing the god forms closer to SSJ4's minimum.

SSJ3: 400x
SSJG(2x SSJ3): 800x
SSJB(50x SSJG): 40,000x

Well, heck if it works it works. Based on the scaling that puts initial SSJ4 competitive with SSJB.

To sum up, I think this establishes a strong case for the lowballed forms for GGA, GGA Baby-Vegeta, and "regular" SSJ4. The next question is if we can justify any levels higher than this.

 

[HunterR18]

Super Saiyan-Derived Technique:
Super Saiyan 4*
Category: Special
People: Gogeta, Son Goku, Vegeta
Characteristics: An ultimate form surpassing Super Saiyan 3. In “DBGT”, Goku transformed into a Golden Great Ape after getting his tail back. He regained his reason thanks to Pan speaking to him, and became Super Saiyan 4. Since it is a different being than prior Super Saiyans, he gets red hair covering his body and long black hair on his head. Vegeta also became Super Saiyan 4 by using the Super Bruits Wave Generator Bulma made.

Super Saiyan-Derived Technique:
Super Saiyan God*
People: Son Goku
Characteristics: The condition is that 6 Saiyans with righteous hearts must be assembled. It is then created when 5 of the righteous Saiyans send their ki into the remaining one. In the film “Battle of Gods”, Goku became Super Saiyan God when he received ki from Gohan, Goten, Trunks, Vegeta, and Pan inside Videl’s womb. He powers up to such an extent that he far surpasses Super Saiyan 3, his hair becomes red, and his body becomes somewhat slender.

 

[Dagon]

@HunterR18 Thanks but that doesn't help us lol.

 

[HunterR18]

@HunterR18 Thanks but that doesn't help us lol.

You can consider some "official" Perfect Files and the like but this is just to let SSJ4 (GT) be below SSG so there would be nothing above

 

[Dagon]

You can consider some "official" Perfect Files and the like but this is just to let SSJ4 (GT) be below SSG so there would be nothing above

I don't think it's necessary to scale it that way.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I have seen the argument that FPSSJ4 Goku has to be over 10x Baby, because he beats him with a normal Kamehameha while a Kamehameha x10 wasn’t enough earlier.

A bit off topic, but how strong do you think GT Gohan is? Goku beats SSJ Gohan in base… Is Goku over 50x stronger than Ultimate Gohan?

 

[Dagon]

I have seen the argument that FPSSJ4 Goku has to be over 10x Baby, because he beats him with a normal Kamehameha while a Kamehameha x10 wasn’t enough earlier.

A bit off topic, but how strong do you think GT Gohan is? Goku beats SSJ Gohan in base… Is Goku over 50x stronger than Ultimate Gohan?

Are you referring to Baby's death? Baby on his own is leagues below SSJ4 Goku. Goku ultimately wore down GGA Baby-Vegeta and obliterated his tail while he was downed. I think it's still reasonable that SSJ4 Goku just needs to be moderately stronger than GGA BV.

As for Gohan, I haven't looked into it much, but I'm sure a lot of people will default to base Gohan being Ultimate Gohan or higher. Usually they say this because base Gohan can handle Rilldo in the S17 saga. But one thing to note about that is that the S17 saga is a year after the Baby saga, which could account for base Gohan possibly surpassing Rilldo's level in that time if he wasn't up to Rilldo's level in the Baby saga.

It's not exactly spelled out which Buu Rilldo surpasses, but I'm sure that's a can of worms. I'll have to look into that later.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Are you referring to Baby's death? Baby on his own is leagues below SSJ4 Goku. Goku ultimately wore down GGA Baby-Vegeta and obliterated his tail while he was downed. I think it's still reasonable that SSJ4 Goku just needs to be moderately stronger than GGA BV.

As for Gohan, I haven't looked into it much, but I'm sure a lot of people will default to base Gohan being Ultimate Gohan or higher. Usually they say this because base Gohan can handle Rilldo in the S17 saga. But one thing to note about that is that the S17 saga is a year after the Baby saga, which could account for base Gohan possibly surpassing Rilldo's level in that time if he wasn't up to Rilldo's level in the Baby saga.

It's not exactly spelled out which Buu Rilldo surpasses, but I'm sure that's a can of worms. I'll have to look into that later.

No, I mean when Goku KO’s GO BV. I just wrote Baby because the full name quite a mouthful lol. He does so with a regular KHH despite the x10 variant. Also Goku sort of absorbs the Super Revenge Death Ball. Is that a power up? Temporary or permanent?

There’s a lot of stuff going on during that fight, figuring out SSJ4 is 100x SSJ3 is just the tip of the iceberg.

I remember you bringing up how the GT writers wanted a Gohan-centric episode about him getting his groove back. This might mean he’s not Ultimate level. GT PF says he trained sure, but maybe he hasn’t trained enough. DBS Gohan trains on and off and keeps slacking.

 

[Dagon]

No, I mean when Goku KO’s GO BV. I just wrote Baby because the full name quite a mouthful lol. He does so with a regular KHH despite the x10 variant. Also Goku sort of absorbs the Super Revenge Death Ball. Is that a power up? Temporary or permanent?

There’s a lot of stuff going on during that fight, figuring out SSJ4 is 100x SSJ3 is just the tip of the iceberg.

I remember you bringing up how the GT writers wanted a Gohan-centric episode about him getting his groove back. This might mean he’s not Ultimate level. GT PF says he trained sure, but maybe he hasn’t trained enough. DBS Gohan trains on and off and keeps slacking.

Right, well they had a double-KO, so they could have had near equal levels at the time. Absorbing the Final Revenge Death Ball could either be temporary or permanent. With a year gap up to the S17 saga it could go either way, either Goku just trained and got that much stronger or the FRDB partially added to Goku's gains.

There was that unused concept for Gohan but of course some people will say it doesn't count since it was never used.