- Joined
- Oct 22, 2021
- Messages
- 9
This is gonna be a bit long so TLDR at the bottom.
Now I reeeaally don't wanna get in to the whole Grade 4 debate and whether it's equal to Grade 1 or Grade 3 though I feel like it might be inevitable considering what I think working best in line with Grade 4 = Grade 1. (I'll leave a link for the things I sight at the bottom of the post.) See I always considered Grade 3 Trunks to be stronger than (regular/non-buff) Perfect Cell, even at full power but recently I've seen a lot people seem to believe opposite. So why do I think Trunks is stronger? This is simply because Trunks is pretty much stated to be stronger than Cell by himself, Piccolo and even Cell by his own admission.
In the chapter "The Balance of Power" it's pretty much explained with Goku's words mirroring Trunks' battle that the problem is that While Trunks is stronger, he has no speed, which is why Trunks can't win. (In other words the writing/narrative is telling us Grade 3 (Trunks) is stronger than Cell until Cell assumes the same form. The confusion comes in when Trunks is awed by Grade 4 Goku's power up and Krillin states that he's surpassed all of them. I thought it was already forgone conclusion that Grade 3 wasn't be considered here because it was useless power and practically a renounced form. Everyone would know about it since Trunks exposited everything to Goku and Gohan when they came out of the Time Chamber in front of everyone. Isn't it most consistent if they're just that awed that Goku's that strong in just his SSJ (Grade 4) state rather than his power surpassing that of Grade 3 Trunks' (because he can now use the constantly output the full power of the form like he never could before due to achieving Grade 4)?
I say this because Grade 3 Trunks being weaker than Cell really doesn't make any sense in the full context of the story because 1, it would contradict the narrative for the message of "being stronger than the opponent means nothing if you can't hit them" if Trunks was both weaker AND slower making it no different than Vegeta's match in reality. 2, This is never depicted to ever be a lie or a suspicious statement considering the story (not just in DB's but in general) will normally make sure that it's either clearly or subtly spelled out for the audience rather than just breezing right passed it and not being mentioned or referenced by a character or narrator when a previous statement is later proven false.
3, It would already kind of be out of character for Cell to lie like this. Sure he's been deceptive to 18 in order to absorb her with the 17 illusion but other than that he's literally never lied and definitely never had a reason to either. Especially if he was already stronger than his opponent. 4, it's really inconsistent with the depictions in the story since Cell is actually shocked when Trunks goes Grade 3 (as we see in the story and is stated in El Manga Legendario 37 and the Trunks TV anime comic that gives us SSJ Grades 1-5) which he never reacts to like that again aside from Gohan who did surpass him; not even Goku. Daizenshuu 2 even states that the only reason Trunks lost was because of his lack of speed too.
So what I would like to know is if there are any clear(er)-cut statements in any guidebooks that say either Trunks was stronger than Cell or that Cell was stronger than Trunks? I know there's a Dragon Book guide series that came out with the Dragon Box sets. Does anyone have Volume 4 or 5 (or any volume) since I'm pretty sure those would cover Vegeta's Grade 2 (ep155), Trunks Grade 3 (ep162) and fight withing Cell (ep163-164) along with Grade 4 Goku and Gohan coming out (ep186) in Volume 4, then Goku going "Full Power" against Cell (ep177-179) and then quitting (ep180) in Volume 5 when it comes to the episode descriptions. That's mainly what I'm looking for since I don't know about any other obscure guides or V-Jump statements or anything that might've been missed in a main guide. Even If they don't say anything on it, it'd be at least good to confirm that. Grade 2, 3, 4, and SSJFP stuff might be related to it which is why I ask.
(These next two paragraphs can be skipped if you don't care about the Grade 4 power thing.)
I know it'll probably be a thing so I guess I'll address the whole Grade 4 power thing now. So there's still the whole "Grade 3 is 10x stronger" statement from EML which I honestly thing is (and is more consistent as) a hyperbolic statement though if we were to take that literally I'm pretty sure we'd have to take Zamasu saying SSJ2 Goku increasing his power by "tens of times" would contradict that. There's
DBS and the whole Cabba vs Vegeta fight that makes it seem like Grade > Grade 1 at face value but considering Vegeta was actually sweating and gradually putting less effort into fighting Cabba it just meant Grade 1 ran out quickly. I also think that (Future Trunk's and mainly) Caulifla's usage of Grade 3 in Super already prove it Grade 4 to be weaker than Grade 3. There is that one guide that one Spanish guide that says Grade 4 = Grade 3 in terms of power too but it also states that SSJ is Oozaru power without transforming so it's a 10x boost too and depicts and describes LSSJ Broly as a Grade 3 so I don't think it's too reliable.
Plus it also states Goku first transformed into when fighting Cell, not leaving the time chamber. This is similar to D2 saying SSJ Full Power debuted in Volume 34 when that's when Goku fought Cell and not Volume 33 when Goku and Gohan came out of the time chamber. So clearly those definitions of "Super Saiyan Full Power" are something different than the concept of Grade 4 though D10 seems to retcon that. Plus if we consider it that by the time D7 came out Grade 4 wasn't acknowledged as another SSJ form just like Grades 2 and 3 then it can be assumed it wasn't any different than SSJ just like how the story depicted it since D7 doesn't really miss the tiniest detail, making Grade 4 part of SSJ and thus a 50x boost as repeated in Perfect Files and the Super Exciting Guide. Though as far as the original story goes, Goku only states that the goal of Grade 4 is to remove the strain of Grade 1 and when Trunks asks if there's so new (stronger) transformation Vegeta calls him an idiot for even thinking that and what the form is is later reiterated to be what Goku said it would be and what most of the guide books say about Grade 4 (and SSJFP when it refers to Grade 4 and not it's own thing).
List of Pictures in Order:
1. Trunks TV Anime Comic and Herms translation, EML 37
- Trunks esconde un poder que sorprender al propio Cell. Sin embargo, es una transformación imperfecta cuya falta de velocidad da al traste con su fuerza. Vegeta lo sabia y por eso le prohibió que se transformara.
"Trunks hides a power that will surprise Cell himself. However, it is an imperfect transformation whose lack of speed destroys its strength. Vegeta knew it and that's why he forbade it to be transformed."
2. Daizenshuu 2 adventure history Volume 33 Trunks lost to Cell because of speed deficiency
3. Zamasu saying SSJ2 Goku increasing his power by "tens of times"
4. Vegeta being Cabba's equal and actually sweating then gradually putting less effort into fighting Cabba
5. Spanish Guide that says SSJ = 10x, Broly was a Grade 3, SSJFP = G3
- Todo el poder saiyan se multiplica por diez (sin tener que convertirse en Ohzaru)
"All saiyan power is multiplied by ten (without having to turn into Oozaru)."
- Cuando Broly se enfrentó a Gokuh por primera vez, también estaba en este estado de poder.
"When Broly first faced Goku, he was also in this state of power."
- Por fin llegmamos al último estadio antes del segundo nivel. Para poder aumentar el nivel de super saiyan y no menguar en ninguna habilidad, se necesita concentrar toda la energía. Para lograrlo hay que entrenar no sólo el cuerpo, sino también la mente. Así, obtenemos todo el poder del super saiyan san daikai sin deformaciones, consiguiendo más fuerza, agilidad, rapidez y reflejos. Este estado fue alcanzado por Goku cuando se enfrentó con Perfect Cell en su particular torneo.
"We finally reached the last stage before the second level. In order to increase the level of Super Saiyan and not decrease in any skill, it is necessary to concentrate all the energy. To achieve this you have to train not only the body, but also the mind. Thus, we obtain all the power of the Super Saiyan Grade 3 without deformations, achieving more strength, agility, speed and reflexes. This state was reached by Goku when he faced Perfect Cell in his particular tournament."
6. Daizenshuu 2 SSJFP entry
https://imgur.com/gallery/bbYffgi
7. Daizenshuu 10 SSJFP retcon(? or context addition?)
https://imgur.com/gallery/GYGhXw8
8. Herms strength checker original dialogue
https://imgur.com/gallery/JqTD4VE
TLDR: What do we think about G3 Trunks being stronger than Perfect Cell. I think it makes the most sense (in the context of the story). Are there any direct/definitive guidebook statements on this (other than Daizenshuu 2)? What does the Dragon Book guide series (or any other guide) say anything on it?
Quick Edit: It makes no sense for Cell's "stronger than me" statement to apply to only his suppressed version because that's not neither how words, context or logic works at all. If he meant that, he either would've said that or alluded to it. No body in Dragon Ball has ever said somebody was stronger than them and had that not actually be true unless they had another transformation (a.k.a. literally another state of being in which their power has a new ceiling). Frieza doesn't say that Piccolo's stronger than him when Piccolo starts winning against Frieza. Frieza says that Piccolo's been underestimating him (because he was holding back). It's juts not consistent for Dragon Ball or in terms for normal speech for a statement to be made like that. Plus, Cell never really does that nor did he ever have a reason to each time he had the opportunity. Like, if I say "that person is faster than me" while I'm walking, does that mean they're only faster than me when I'm walking because I said it while I was walking? No. Obviously not. That's just logic.
So again, I think it makes more sense if every at the Cell Games was just shocked because Grade 4 Goku was that strong but just as a SSJ and the closest to Cell's full power at the time and because Grade 3 wasn't taken into consideration being ruled out as a renounced and inefficient form with a lot more power that can't be used. Just look at the consistency of Cell's reactions. Completely unphased by Grade 4 Goku's full power, a little weary of Grade 4 Gohan's power, surprised by Grade 3 Trunks' power upon transforming (before further powering up) and then shocked and trembling at SSJ2 Gohan's power. Not to mention again the multiple guidebooks stating the reaction of Cell to Trunks being genuine and enough to surprised/startled. Contextually and logically it makes more sense for Grade 3 Trunks to be stronger than Cell unless you cherry-pick the context (with you do it seriously or just for the fun of another interpretation of the story in a "death of the author" sort of way.
9. Cell's power reactions: Grade 4 Goku < Grade 4 Gohan < Perfect Cell < Grade 3 Trunks < SSJ2 Gohan
imgur.com
Now I reeeaally don't wanna get in to the whole Grade 4 debate and whether it's equal to Grade 1 or Grade 3 though I feel like it might be inevitable considering what I think working best in line with Grade 4 = Grade 1. (I'll leave a link for the things I sight at the bottom of the post.) See I always considered Grade 3 Trunks to be stronger than (regular/non-buff) Perfect Cell, even at full power but recently I've seen a lot people seem to believe opposite. So why do I think Trunks is stronger? This is simply because Trunks is pretty much stated to be stronger than Cell by himself, Piccolo and even Cell by his own admission.
In the chapter "The Balance of Power" it's pretty much explained with Goku's words mirroring Trunks' battle that the problem is that While Trunks is stronger, he has no speed, which is why Trunks can't win. (In other words the writing/narrative is telling us Grade 3 (Trunks) is stronger than Cell until Cell assumes the same form. The confusion comes in when Trunks is awed by Grade 4 Goku's power up and Krillin states that he's surpassed all of them. I thought it was already forgone conclusion that Grade 3 wasn't be considered here because it was useless power and practically a renounced form. Everyone would know about it since Trunks exposited everything to Goku and Gohan when they came out of the Time Chamber in front of everyone. Isn't it most consistent if they're just that awed that Goku's that strong in just his SSJ (Grade 4) state rather than his power surpassing that of Grade 3 Trunks' (because he can now use the constantly output the full power of the form like he never could before due to achieving Grade 4)?
I say this because Grade 3 Trunks being weaker than Cell really doesn't make any sense in the full context of the story because 1, it would contradict the narrative for the message of "being stronger than the opponent means nothing if you can't hit them" if Trunks was both weaker AND slower making it no different than Vegeta's match in reality. 2, This is never depicted to ever be a lie or a suspicious statement considering the story (not just in DB's but in general) will normally make sure that it's either clearly or subtly spelled out for the audience rather than just breezing right passed it and not being mentioned or referenced by a character or narrator when a previous statement is later proven false.
3, It would already kind of be out of character for Cell to lie like this. Sure he's been deceptive to 18 in order to absorb her with the 17 illusion but other than that he's literally never lied and definitely never had a reason to either. Especially if he was already stronger than his opponent. 4, it's really inconsistent with the depictions in the story since Cell is actually shocked when Trunks goes Grade 3 (as we see in the story and is stated in El Manga Legendario 37 and the Trunks TV anime comic that gives us SSJ Grades 1-5) which he never reacts to like that again aside from Gohan who did surpass him; not even Goku. Daizenshuu 2 even states that the only reason Trunks lost was because of his lack of speed too.
So what I would like to know is if there are any clear(er)-cut statements in any guidebooks that say either Trunks was stronger than Cell or that Cell was stronger than Trunks? I know there's a Dragon Book guide series that came out with the Dragon Box sets. Does anyone have Volume 4 or 5 (or any volume) since I'm pretty sure those would cover Vegeta's Grade 2 (ep155), Trunks Grade 3 (ep162) and fight withing Cell (ep163-164) along with Grade 4 Goku and Gohan coming out (ep186) in Volume 4, then Goku going "Full Power" against Cell (ep177-179) and then quitting (ep180) in Volume 5 when it comes to the episode descriptions. That's mainly what I'm looking for since I don't know about any other obscure guides or V-Jump statements or anything that might've been missed in a main guide. Even If they don't say anything on it, it'd be at least good to confirm that. Grade 2, 3, 4, and SSJFP stuff might be related to it which is why I ask.
(These next two paragraphs can be skipped if you don't care about the Grade 4 power thing.)
I know it'll probably be a thing so I guess I'll address the whole Grade 4 power thing now. So there's still the whole "Grade 3 is 10x stronger" statement from EML which I honestly thing is (and is more consistent as) a hyperbolic statement though if we were to take that literally I'm pretty sure we'd have to take Zamasu saying SSJ2 Goku increasing his power by "tens of times" would contradict that. There's
DBS and the whole Cabba vs Vegeta fight that makes it seem like Grade > Grade 1 at face value but considering Vegeta was actually sweating and gradually putting less effort into fighting Cabba it just meant Grade 1 ran out quickly. I also think that (Future Trunk's and mainly) Caulifla's usage of Grade 3 in Super already prove it Grade 4 to be weaker than Grade 3. There is that one guide that one Spanish guide that says Grade 4 = Grade 3 in terms of power too but it also states that SSJ is Oozaru power without transforming so it's a 10x boost too and depicts and describes LSSJ Broly as a Grade 3 so I don't think it's too reliable.
Plus it also states Goku first transformed into when fighting Cell, not leaving the time chamber. This is similar to D2 saying SSJ Full Power debuted in Volume 34 when that's when Goku fought Cell and not Volume 33 when Goku and Gohan came out of the time chamber. So clearly those definitions of "Super Saiyan Full Power" are something different than the concept of Grade 4 though D10 seems to retcon that. Plus if we consider it that by the time D7 came out Grade 4 wasn't acknowledged as another SSJ form just like Grades 2 and 3 then it can be assumed it wasn't any different than SSJ just like how the story depicted it since D7 doesn't really miss the tiniest detail, making Grade 4 part of SSJ and thus a 50x boost as repeated in Perfect Files and the Super Exciting Guide. Though as far as the original story goes, Goku only states that the goal of Grade 4 is to remove the strain of Grade 1 and when Trunks asks if there's so new (stronger) transformation Vegeta calls him an idiot for even thinking that and what the form is is later reiterated to be what Goku said it would be and what most of the guide books say about Grade 4 (and SSJFP when it refers to Grade 4 and not it's own thing).
List of Pictures in Order:
1. Trunks TV Anime Comic and Herms translation, EML 37
- Trunks esconde un poder que sorprender al propio Cell. Sin embargo, es una transformación imperfecta cuya falta de velocidad da al traste con su fuerza. Vegeta lo sabia y por eso le prohibió que se transformara.
"Trunks hides a power that will surprise Cell himself. However, it is an imperfect transformation whose lack of speed destroys its strength. Vegeta knew it and that's why he forbade it to be transformed."
2. Daizenshuu 2 adventure history Volume 33 Trunks lost to Cell because of speed deficiency
3. Zamasu saying SSJ2 Goku increasing his power by "tens of times"
4. Vegeta being Cabba's equal and actually sweating then gradually putting less effort into fighting Cabba
5. Spanish Guide that says SSJ = 10x, Broly was a Grade 3, SSJFP = G3
- Todo el poder saiyan se multiplica por diez (sin tener que convertirse en Ohzaru)
"All saiyan power is multiplied by ten (without having to turn into Oozaru)."
- Cuando Broly se enfrentó a Gokuh por primera vez, también estaba en este estado de poder.
"When Broly first faced Goku, he was also in this state of power."
- Por fin llegmamos al último estadio antes del segundo nivel. Para poder aumentar el nivel de super saiyan y no menguar en ninguna habilidad, se necesita concentrar toda la energía. Para lograrlo hay que entrenar no sólo el cuerpo, sino también la mente. Así, obtenemos todo el poder del super saiyan san daikai sin deformaciones, consiguiendo más fuerza, agilidad, rapidez y reflejos. Este estado fue alcanzado por Goku cuando se enfrentó con Perfect Cell en su particular torneo.
"We finally reached the last stage before the second level. In order to increase the level of Super Saiyan and not decrease in any skill, it is necessary to concentrate all the energy. To achieve this you have to train not only the body, but also the mind. Thus, we obtain all the power of the Super Saiyan Grade 3 without deformations, achieving more strength, agility, speed and reflexes. This state was reached by Goku when he faced Perfect Cell in his particular tournament."
6. Daizenshuu 2 SSJFP entry
https://imgur.com/gallery/bbYffgi
7. Daizenshuu 10 SSJFP retcon(? or context addition?)
https://imgur.com/gallery/GYGhXw8
8. Herms strength checker original dialogue
https://imgur.com/gallery/JqTD4VE
TLDR: What do we think about G3 Trunks being stronger than Perfect Cell. I think it makes the most sense (in the context of the story). Are there any direct/definitive guidebook statements on this (other than Daizenshuu 2)? What does the Dragon Book guide series (or any other guide) say anything on it?
Quick Edit: It makes no sense for Cell's "stronger than me" statement to apply to only his suppressed version because that's not neither how words, context or logic works at all. If he meant that, he either would've said that or alluded to it. No body in Dragon Ball has ever said somebody was stronger than them and had that not actually be true unless they had another transformation (a.k.a. literally another state of being in which their power has a new ceiling). Frieza doesn't say that Piccolo's stronger than him when Piccolo starts winning against Frieza. Frieza says that Piccolo's been underestimating him (because he was holding back). It's juts not consistent for Dragon Ball or in terms for normal speech for a statement to be made like that. Plus, Cell never really does that nor did he ever have a reason to each time he had the opportunity. Like, if I say "that person is faster than me" while I'm walking, does that mean they're only faster than me when I'm walking because I said it while I was walking? No. Obviously not. That's just logic.
So again, I think it makes more sense if every at the Cell Games was just shocked because Grade 4 Goku was that strong but just as a SSJ and the closest to Cell's full power at the time and because Grade 3 wasn't taken into consideration being ruled out as a renounced and inefficient form with a lot more power that can't be used. Just look at the consistency of Cell's reactions. Completely unphased by Grade 4 Goku's full power, a little weary of Grade 4 Gohan's power, surprised by Grade 3 Trunks' power upon transforming (before further powering up) and then shocked and trembling at SSJ2 Gohan's power. Not to mention again the multiple guidebooks stating the reaction of Cell to Trunks being genuine and enough to surprised/startled. Contextually and logically it makes more sense for Grade 3 Trunks to be stronger than Cell unless you cherry-pick the context (with you do it seriously or just for the fun of another interpretation of the story in a "death of the author" sort of way.
9. Cell's power reactions: Grade 4 Goku < Grade 4 Gohan < Perfect Cell < Grade 3 Trunks < SSJ2 Gohan
Who Has the Most Raw Power Between Trunks and Cell? - Album on Imgur
Discover topics like super saiyan grade 4, super saiyan full power, future trunks, perfect cell, super saiyan grade 3, and the magic of the internet at Imgur, a community powered entertainment destination. Lift your spirits with funny jokes, trending memes, entertaining gifs, inspiring stories...
imgur.com
Last edited:
