SSG Vegeta (Post-RoSaT) vs SSB Goku

[Future Warrior]

Vegeta after training in the RoSaT to fight Goku Black. Do you think he got strong enough for his SSG to match Goku's SSB?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

As in his manga self? No. In the U6 Arc, Goku stated that even training with the Rosat with Vegeta for 3 years wouldn't offer huge gains due to how strong they'd become and this time, Vegeta didn't have a training partner. Most likely, Vegeta primarily focused on improving the way he used SSB effectively. I don't believe he got any stronger, or at most got very minimal gains.

 

[SIAD]

I now come to realize this question. Ups!

As for the question. Vegeta if you increase your CC power a lot. Vegeta SSJB (Pre Rosat) step being much lower than Goku Black SSJR, even lower than Goku Black SSJ (Post Zenkai), to be superior to Goku Black SSJR.

Vegeta SSJB (Post Rosat)> /> Goku Black SSJR >>>> Goku Black SSJ (Post Zenkai)> Vegeta SSJB (Pre Rosat).

I think Goku SSJB wins by the least difference. Even the tension of the SSJB, you can play find and give victory to Vegeta SSJG. I have the SSJB = 2.5x SSJG.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Goku stated Vegeta's Ki whilst in SSB was dropping rapidly due to the poor way in which he used it, rather than using it in controlled bursts as Goku did against Hit. The reason why SSB Vegeta was getting stomped by Black was the same as why such happened against Hit. Goku also wasn't surprised to see SSB Vegeta completely ovepowering Black, nor was there any statement about Vegeta having surpassed Goku, which always seems to be made a big deal of (eg. Vegeta VS #19, Enraged Vegeta VS Beerus, etc.)

SSB Vegeta (Full Power) >> SSR Black >> SSJ Black (Limits) ~ SSB Vegeta (Fatigued)

 

[Papasmurf]

Didn't SSJB Vegeta straight after getting a senzu barely fight SSJ Black evenly, though? It seems like SSJB when not used in bursts is just inferior to SSJR Black as a whole, only Black hasn't mastered SSJR in such a way yet.

 

[SIAD]

But then why Goku Black SSJR >>>> Goku SSJB, if Goku had better mastery of SSJB?

 

[Future Warrior]

Goku stated Vegeta's Ki whilst in SSB was dropping rapidly due to the poor way in which he used it, rather than using it in controlled bursts as Goku did against Hit. The reason why SSB Vegeta was getting stomped by Black was the same as why such happened against Hit. Goku also wasn't surprised to see SSB Vegeta completely ovepowering Black, nor was there any statement about Vegeta having surpassed Goku, which always seems to be made a big deal of (eg. Vegeta VS #19, Enraged Vegeta VS Beerus, etc.)

SSB Vegeta (Full Power) >> SSR Black >> SSJ Black (Limits) ~ SSB Vegeta (Fatigued)

I highly doubt Vegeta was already stronger than SSR Goku Black considering even after gaining a senzu bean he still was getting pushed back by SS Goku Black. Also, Vegeta has only transformed into Blue once, so I don't think he lost all that much power if at all. It would be kinda arbitrary for Vegeta to use the RoSaT if his main problem was his poor way of utilizing the Blue form, which he could have easily solved the issue. I think SSR Goku Black >>> SSB Vegeta is definitely implied.

 

[Pyro]

From my understanding of the fights so far, Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta wasn't at such a huge advantage against Super Saiyan Black that he could stomp him outright. They were in the same realm of power, like Goku and Cell at their largest gap perhaps. Black was still able to dodge some of Vegeta's attacks and counter with his own, although Vegeta was able to dodge more and inflict more damage. After their skirmish and before Vegeta went Blue, you can see Vegeta didn't have much damage if at all, while Black was annoyed and visibly roughed up.

Black shat a brick once Vegeta went Blue. Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta absolutely wrecked Super Saiyan Black's shit. From the speed blitz to start things off to just banging him around like a wet mop, Vegeta was leagues ahead; Black couldn't even fight back at all. This was a Ginyu Force V Goku battle at the very least.

Once Black was healed, he was able to take the lead, but Vegeta wasn't annihilated at first. Vegeta was able to get a few hits in, although Black inflicted noticeably more damage. Black also said Vegeta was still at a good level to make him stronger, so they're not terribly far apart, but enough that Black doesn't need to worry about losing. If anything, I'd say it's the same gap as their first round, only with the roles reversed.

This went unnoticed by me the first time I read through, but once Black said that, he was healed by Zamasu again, giving him enough power to transform into Super Saiyan Rose. Again, this was very similar to their second round, but with Black destroying Vegeta instead. There was no mention of Vegeta using Blue poorly, or any of that, so it was purely down to a power discrepancy. I guess you could argue Vegeta's stamina had begun to wane at some point, but it wasn't made a point of, even by Goku.

With a power-up from the RoSaT, I don't think Vegeta was that far behind Black. I don't know about specifics, but I think he only used Blue during his attacks, which would mean as regular Super Saiyan God he was able to defend competently against Super Saiyan Rose Black, putting them on a similar level. With Blue, he was knocking Black around with ease yet again. If you want to assume Vegeta used Blue to defend as well, that's totally fine, it doesn't change a whole lot.

SSB Vegeta (post-RoSaT) >>> SSR Black >~ SSG Vegeta >> SSj Black (2nd zenkai) > SSj Black (1st zenkai) >> SSB Vegeta >>> SSj2 Vegeta >> SSj Black

There's no room for SSB Goku to be on par with Vegeta as of right now. The RoSaT scene was enough to deduce that Vegeta increased his power immensely, while Goku was training the Mafuba, which I don't think grants a giant strength increase. The only thing that puts any of this in doubt is Goku questioning if Vegeta could handle Black on his own, implying either Vegeta was super suppressed or that he didn't gain enough power to seem like he could win, which is also kind of dumb but whatever.

 

[Papasmurf]

Yeah Vegeta taking a senzu and still getting beaten, heavily suggests his pre rosat SSJB self as a whole was inferior to the post zenkai incarnations of Black, while his post Rosat SSJG is at least enough to anticipate and dodge Black's attacks even if he only uses Blue instantly. I think Vegeta made some increase, would make little sense for him not to.

 

[Pyro]

He definitely made an increase. The detriment of Blue was never brought up as the reason he lost to Black in the first place, although the fact that this strategy is being used does put some weight on that concept being somewhat important.

 

[SIAD]

From my understanding of the fights so far, Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta wasn't at such a huge advantage against Super Saiyan Black that he could stomp him outright. They were in the same realm of power, like Goku and Cell at their largest gap perhaps. Black was still able to dodge some of Vegeta's attacks and counter with his own, although Vegeta was able to dodge more and inflict more damage. After their skirmish and before Vegeta went Blue, you can see Vegeta didn't have much damage if at all, while Black was annoyed and visibly roughed up.

Black shat a brick once Vegeta went Blue. Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta absolutely wrecked Super Saiyan Black's shit. From the speed blitz to start things off to just banging him around like a wet mop, Vegeta was leagues ahead; Black couldn't even fight back at all. This was a Ginyu Force V Goku battle at the very least.

Once Black was healed, he was able to take the lead, but Vegeta wasn't annihilated at first. Vegeta was able to get a few hits in, although Black inflicted noticeably more damage. Black also said Vegeta was still at a good level to make him stronger, so they're not terribly far apart, but enough that Black doesn't need to worry about losing. If anything, I'd say it's the same gap as their first round, only with the roles reversed.

This went unnoticed by me the first time I read through, but once Black said that, he was healed by Zamasu again, giving him enough power to transform into Super Saiyan Rose. Again, this was very similar to their second round, but with Black destroying Vegeta instead. There was no mention of Vegeta using Blue poorly, or any of that, so it was purely down to a power discrepancy. I guess you could argue Vegeta's stamina had begun to wane at some point, but it wasn't made a point of, even by Goku.

With a power-up from the RoSaT, I don't think Vegeta was that far behind Black. I don't know about specifics, but I think he only used Blue during his attacks, which would mean as regular Super Saiyan God he was able to defend competently against Super Saiyan Rose Black, putting them on a similar level. With Blue, he was knocking Black around with ease yet again.

SSB Vegeta (post-RoSaT) >>> SSR Black >~ SSG Vegeta >> SSj Black (2nd zenkai) > SSj Black (1st zenkai) >> SSB Vegeta >>> SSj2 Vegeta >> SSj Black

There's no room for SSB Goku to be on par with Vegeta as of right now. The RoSaT scene was enough to deduce that Vegeta increase his power immensely, while Goku was training the Mafuba, which I don't think grants a giant strength increase. The only thing that puts any of this in doubt is Goku questioning if Vegeta could handle Black on his own, implying either Vegeta was super suppressed or that he didn't gain enough power to seem like he could win, which is also kind of dumb but whatever.

Good analysis.

 

[SIAD]

Yeah Vegeta taking a senzu and still getting beaten, heavily suggests his pre rosat SSJB self as a whole was inferior to the post zenkai incarnations of Black, while his post Rosat SSJG is at least enough to anticipate and dodge Black's attacks even if he only uses Blue instantly. I think Vegeta made some increase, would make little sense for him not to.

Very true. Do you think Vegeta SSJB (Pre Rosat) vs Vegeta SSJG (Post Rosat)?

 

[Pyro]

From my understanding of the fights so far, Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta wasn't at such a huge advantage against Super Saiyan Black that he could stomp him outright. They were in the same realm of power, like Goku and Cell at their largest gap perhaps. Black was still able to dodge some of Vegeta's attacks and counter with his own, although Vegeta was able to dodge more and inflict more damage. After their skirmish and before Vegeta went Blue, you can see Vegeta didn't have much damage if at all, while Black was annoyed and visibly roughed up.

Black shat a brick once Vegeta went Blue. Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta absolutely wrecked Super Saiyan Black's shit. From the speed blitz to start things off to just banging him around like a wet mop, Vegeta was leagues ahead; Black couldn't even fight back at all. This was a Ginyu Force V Goku battle at the very least.

Once Black was healed, he was able to take the lead, but Vegeta wasn't annihilated at first. Vegeta was able to get a few hits in, although Black inflicted noticeably more damage. Black also said Vegeta was still at a good level to make him stronger, so they're not terribly far apart, but enough that Black doesn't need to worry about losing. If anything, I'd say it's the same gap as their first round, only with the roles reversed.

This went unnoticed by me the first time I read through, but once Black said that, he was healed by Zamasu again, giving him enough power to transform into Super Saiyan Rose. Again, this was very similar to their second round, but with Black destroying Vegeta instead. There was no mention of Vegeta using Blue poorly, or any of that, so it was purely down to a power discrepancy. I guess you could argue Vegeta's stamina had begun to wane at some point, but it wasn't made a point of, even by Goku.

With a power-up from the RoSaT, I don't think Vegeta was that far behind Black. I don't know about specifics, but I think he only used Blue during his attacks, which would mean as regular Super Saiyan God he was able to defend competently against Super Saiyan Rose Black, putting them on a similar level. With Blue, he was knocking Black around with ease yet again.

SSB Vegeta (post-RoSaT) >>> SSR Black >~ SSG Vegeta >> SSj Black (2nd zenkai) > SSj Black (1st zenkai) >> SSB Vegeta >>> SSj2 Vegeta >> SSj Black

There's no room for SSB Goku to be on par with Vegeta as of right now. The RoSaT scene was enough to deduce that Vegeta increase his power immensely, while Goku was training the Mafuba, which I don't think grants a giant strength increase. The only thing that puts any of this in doubt is Goku questioning if Vegeta could handle Black on his own, implying either Vegeta was super suppressed or that he didn't gain enough power to seem like he could win, which is also kind of dumb but whatever.

Good analysis.

 

[Future Warrior]

From my understanding of the fights so far, Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta wasn't at such a huge advantage against Super Saiyan Black that he could stomp him outright. They were in the same realm of power, like Goku and Cell at their largest gap perhaps. Black was still able to dodge some of Vegeta's attacks and counter with his own, although Vegeta was able to dodge more and inflict more damage. After their skirmish and before Vegeta went Blue, you can see Vegeta didn't have much damage if at all, while Black was annoyed and visibly roughed up.

Black shat a brick once Vegeta went Blue. Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta absolutely wrecked Super Saiyan Black's shit. From the speed blitz to start things off to just banging him around like a wet mop, Vegeta was leagues ahead; Black couldn't even fight back at all. This was a Ginyu Force V Goku battle at the very least.

Once Black was healed, he was able to take the lead, but Vegeta wasn't annihilated at first. Vegeta was able to get a few hits in, although Black inflicted noticeably more damage. Black also said Vegeta was still at a good level to make him stronger, so they're not terribly far apart, but enough that Black doesn't need to worry about losing. If anything, I'd say it's the same gap as their first round, only with the roles reversed.

This went unnoticed by me the first time I read through, but once Black said that, he was healed by Zamasu again, giving him enough power to transform into Super Saiyan Rose. Again, this was very similar to their second round, but with Black destroying Vegeta instead. There was no mention of Vegeta using Blue poorly, or any of that, so it was purely down to a power discrepancy. I guess you could argue Vegeta's stamina had begun to wane at some point, but it wasn't made a point of, even by Goku.

With a power-up from the RoSaT, I don't think Vegeta was that far behind Black. I don't know about specifics, but I think he only used Blue during his attacks, which would mean as regular Super Saiyan God he was able to defend competently against Super Saiyan Rose Black, putting them on a similar level. With Blue, he was knocking Black around with ease yet again.

SSB Vegeta (post-RoSaT) >>> SSR Black >~ SSG Vegeta >> SSj Black (2nd zenkai) > SSj Black (1st zenkai) >> SSB Vegeta >>> SSj2 Vegeta >> SSj Black

There's no room for SSB Goku to be on par with Vegeta as of right now. The RoSaT scene was enough to deduce that Vegeta increase his power immensely, while Goku was training the Mafuba, which I don't think grants a giant strength increase. The only thing that puts any of this in doubt is Goku questioning if Vegeta could handle Black on his own, implying either Vegeta was super suppressed or that he didn't gain enough power to seem like he could win, which is also kind of dumb but whatever.

Nice analysis!

Does SSG Vegeta really have to be that close to SSR Black though? Goku Black seems to treat SSG Vegeta as being far inferior to his power. Also, I'm pretty sure Vegeta didn't ONLY use SSB for his attacks. He actually turned SSB just to launch himself towards Black and he comments on Vegeta's speed skyrocketing at that moment. I think he used SSB for defending and attacking at the same time.

 

[Pyro]

I don't know. Herms' translation also says Vegeta used it just for attacking.

Goku: “Super Saiyan Blue’s got amazing power, but can’t be held for long. God’s more balanced on that point, and uses up less stamina.”
Trunks: “But then…How’s he fighting Black with this ‘God’ form…?”
3
Goku: “He ain’t doing it as God! Watch close.”
Trunks: “Huh?!”
4
Goku: “[r] Just at the instant he attacks [l] Vegeta turns into Blue.”

Page 25
1
Trunks: “He can do that? Amazing…”
Goku: “He’s saving up Blue’s power, then letting it rip for just a moment.”
2
Kaioshin: “Isn’t that the same strategy you used against Hit?”
Goku: “Yeah, but back then I could only go Blue once and that was it.”
3
Goku: “[r] Vegeta’s doing that again and again. [l] And his power doesn’t drop either! He’s trained a bunch.”

 

[Future Warrior]

But he didn't only use it for attacking, as he used SSB just to increase his speed.

Page 16
3
Black: “Guh!!!”
5
Black: “[r] Nuh…Mumuh…[l] You suddenly got a lot faster…”
6
Black: “What did you do?...
7
Vegeta: “[r] What did I do? [l] Let me show you.”

 

[Pyro]

Didn't he do that to attack?

 

[ahill1]

I think he increased his speed to attack, no?

But I think it makes sense for him to use Blue in order to evade some attacks, similarly to how Goku used to use Kaioken to get away from his opponents or to dodge a blast (e.g vs Vegeta on Earth), or how Recoome sped up when Vegeta tried to attack him.

Vegeta used "the instant he attacks" to describe what Goku was doing to the Ginyu-force, even though Goku obviously heightened his battle power to defend himself too, as he wouldn't be capable of that with a BP of 5,000:


Chapter: 281 (DBZ 87), P11.2-4
Jheese: “Wh-what’s going on…?! There’s no mistake that his battle power is only 5,000…”
Vegeta: “Ka-Kakarot rapidly heightens his battle power for the brief instant when he attacks…That’s probably to decrease unnecessary energy consumption…It’s for an extremely brief instant, so even the scouters probably can’t pick up on it…Th-this is an outrageous battle power…H-how did he get that kind of power?...”

 

[Pyro]

I mean, I have no issue with that. I couldn't care less if SSR Black was >~ SSG Vegeta or > or even >>, it's all good to me.

 

[Papasmurf]

In this case Vegeta was clearly seen transforming after he dodged a punch from Black, so he's not always relying on Blue's increased speed at least.