SSJ 300x base in ToP?

[ahill1]

There was a random fighter with armor fighting Vegeta and they were initially seemingly fighting on par with Vegeta in base:

And then this guy stated his attacks would get 300x stronger, and yet Vegeta could fend off him in SSJ:

... so whatchu think?

 

[Pyro]

His raw ki doesn't change much, but his physical strength does.

 

[ahill1]

Well, the simplest approach here is to assume that his chi got up by 300x as well, no? "My attacks are 300x stronger and faster", then his battle power got up 300x times... I wouldn't see a need to differentiate in that case. Besides, he mentioned he is that much faster as well, so it wasn't merely his physical strength that increased.

 

[Papasmurf]

Maybe base Vegeta just wasn't going all out

 

[Captain Cadaver]

He already stated his attacks were 300 times stronger than usual in the mode Base Vegeta was winning against. The key part of that statement about his Ultimate Mode was that he was both 300x stronger and faster than usual. His power didn't increase at all, just his speed.

SSJ is most likely no higher than a 2.5x boost at this point, and even that's generous considering how useless of a boost it's been against opponents like the Trio de Dangers or Ribrianne.

 

[ahill1]

He already stated his attacks were 300 times stronger than usual in the mode Base Vegeta was winning against. The key part of that statement about his Ultimate Mode was that he was both 300x stronger and faster than usual. His power didn't increase at all, just his speed.

SSJ is most likely no higher than a 2.5x boost at this point, and even that's generous considering how useless of a boost it's been against opponents like the Trio de Dangers or Ribrianne.

Why his power didn't increase? He stated that both his strenght and speed have increased, so it were both. The fact that he brought up speed in that statement doesn't mean there wasn't a power increasr, it just means he wished to clarify considering not every power increase has brough a increase speed... or they weren't entirely proportional, as seen in examples like the Ginyu Force or the SSJG3... so mentioning that his speed increased by the same amount would be worth mentioning, I'd say.

What you stated about his earlier statement is fair point, but did Vegeta fight against him before him making the first 300x strength increase?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Why his power didn't increase? He stated that both his strenght and speed have increased, so it were both. The fact that he brought up speed in that statement doesn't mean there wasn't a power increasr, it just means he wished to clarify considering not every power increase has brough a increase speed... or they weren't entirely proportional, as seen in examples like the Ginyu Force or the SSJG3... so mentioning that his speed increased by the same amount would be worth mentioning, I'd say.

Although what you stated about his earlier statement is far point, but did Vegeta fight against him before him making the first 300x strength increase?

If his power did increase his power, he would've referred to it as being 300x greater than before, not "as usual". The B Mode or whatever it was called that he used against Base Vegeta was already confirmed by himself to be 300x stronger than usual.

His need to clarify it was increasing both was because his two previous modes specifically only increased one stat from it's base value. He specified that the mode he used against Freeza and #18 was 300x faster than usual, whilst told Vegeta the mode he was using against him was 300x stronger than normal. The mode he used against SSJ Vegeta just increased both stats from their base value, so there's no reason to assume his strength increased when the form he used against Base Vegeta was already explicitly stated to be 300x stronger than usual.

 

[ahill1]

If his power did increase his power, he would've referred to it as being 300x greater than before, not "as usual". The B Mode or whatever it was called that he used against Base Vegeta was already confirmed by himself to be 300x stronger than usual.

"If his power did increase his power"? Do you mean if it increased his overall chi? But then, he did multiply his overall speed by a factor of 300 against #18:

Strength : 1
Speed : 300

And then he multiplied his strength by a factor of 300 against base Vegeta:

Strength : 300
Speed : 300

Therefore, their strength and speed are already on par with each other... they already match each other... so it'd make no sense for him to mention that now both his speed and power are 300x greater than before considering he had already increased both... so what I get from that is that, on top of the 300x strength and speed he had when fighting base Vegeta, he performed another "stats" increase that now has brought a power AND a speed increase... so, his ultra mode would have, comparatively:

Strength : 90,000
Speed : 90,000


And then, what you said in the 2nd part of your answer, would justify why he did specified a power and speed increase, because he has already increased one without increasing the other one... so now, he increased both at the same time.

 

[ahill1]

Hmm, I think I get it now that I am rereading the statements... so against #18 he was 300x faster than his base... and against Vegeta he was 300x stronger than his base... and now on his Ultra mode he is 300x stronger and faster, meaning he got 300x faster but his strength didn't change. I see.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

"If his power did i crease his power"? Do you mean if it increased his overall chi? But then, he did multiply his overall speed by a factor of 300 against #18:

What I meant is that...I made a typo and meant to put his mode did increase his power.

Strength : 1
Speed : 300

And then he multiplied his speed by a factor of 300 against base Vegeta:

Strength : 300
Speed : 300

Therefore, their strength and speed are already on par with each other... they already match each other... so it'd make no sense for him to mention that now both his speed and power are 300x greater than before considering he had already increased both... so what I get from that is that, on top of the 300x strength and speed he had when fighting base Vegeta, he performed another "stats" increase that now has brought a power AND a speed increase... so, his ultra mode would have, comparatively:

Strength : 90,000
Speed : 90,000

And then, what you said in the 2nd part of your answer, would justify why he did specified a power and speed increase, because he has already increased one without increasing the other one... so now, he increased both at the same time.

As I said before, he wouldn't state his power and speed had increased by 300x more than usual if he was already using 300x more power than usual. What his modes most likely did was swap his boost between power and speed. Think of it like changing the build of a character's stats in a video game.

So, something more akin to this.

Base stats
Power: 1
Speed: 1

VS Freeza/#18
Power: 1
Speed: 300

VS Base Vegeta
Power: 300
Speed: 1

VS SSJ Vegeta
Power: 300
Speed: 300

 

[ahill1]

@Captain Cadaver --> but even so, he still got 300x faster than the version that was facing base Vegeta... so would SSJ Vegeta be able to react to the attacks of someone 300x faster if the SSJ was 'merely' 2.5x there? Unless a SSJ provides a 2.5x strength increase and a ~300x speed increase, which seems also whacky.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

It's most likely Katopesla's speed was simply that far below Base Vegeta's when he fought him. After all, when he was attacking Vegeta, all Vegeta was doing was standing still with his eyes closed in an attempt to unlock UI and was easily trashing Katopesla once he actually decided to fight back. We have nothing to suggest this version of Katopesla was in the same league as Base Vegeta in terms of speed.

Even if we were to assume SSJ Vegeta increased his speed by ~300x by going SSJ, it still wouldn't warrant a 300x boost to his Ki. After all, as I've mentioned many times, battle power seldom correlates perfectly with stat boosts such as destructive capacity or speed other than Kaioken. If we were to assume neither Piccolo's Moon Bust's power of speed were an outlier, for instance, that'd mean his speed was over 1,000x what it was at the 23rd TB, or the opposite of how inconsistent and lacklustre flight and reaction speeds were such as Gohan viewing surpassing Kinto'Un's speed as anything grand or cameras of all things being able to track Goku and Cell's movements for a short time.

 

[ahill1]

If we were to assume neither Piccolo's Moon Bust's power of speed were an outlier, for instance, that'd mean his speed was over 1,000x what it was at the 23rd TB, or the opposite of how inconsistent and lacklustre flight and reaction speeds were such as Gohan viewing surpassing Kinto'Un's speed as anything grand or cameras of all things being able to track Goku and Cell's movements for a short time.

Piccolo's moon bust level was probably an outlier though, as Vegeta and co. were astonished at the thought of Goku travelling between distances of 10,000 Kms in an instant when this latter used his Shunkan Idou, which wouldn't make much sense if Piccolo's blast, who was way inferior to the Makankosappo one, could already get to such a distance in seconds, even more so when the Makankosappo could still be dodged by Raditz on Earth, and thinking that a blast around the ~400 mark could way surpass the speed of characters who had battle power already surpassing the 2,000,000 mark (by Vegeta's surprise, it was obvious such speed showdown was beyond his capacities) doesn't make sense either.

If someone's battle power doubles, so does their strength, which is what the armored guy ought to be referring to. If making battle power lists, the simplest approach to his line would be that his battle power simply went up by 300x once he got 300x stronger, and even though the speed increase might not be proportional to the power increase in the ssj case, assuming it'd be that off sync sounds like an exaggeration to me... it's true that the SSJ might not be like the Kaioken which increases all ststs by the same amount, but it still wasn't noted to grant that much of an additional speed boost sans maybe Gohan in the Cell Games, whose speed seemed to be a bit higher than his current chi would indicate.

But yeah, even though I have watched yesterday Vegeta "fighting" that guy, it seemed so uninteresting -- besides that line -- that my memory of the fight is foggy, so I'll take your word for that.